Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.
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List the verses that confirm CLOUDS in 1 Thess 4.16-17 are actually angels
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds << ANGELS ? :)
It's a matter of being either logical about things or being illogical about things. Take your pick.
Let's start with Daniel 7 then.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Obviously, Jesus has literally bodily entered heaven at that point. And that it seems rather silly that He came with literal earth clouds. The clouds of heaven are with Him when He enters heaven. Literal earth clouds are with Him? Surely not. Yet something or someone is clearly with Him and that it is not unreasonable that angels escorted Him back to heaven. Thus the clouds of heaven might equal angels. If not angels, what then? Literal earth clouds? It's not like there are a whole lot of logical options here.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
If the clouds of heaven equal angels in Daniel 7 it would obviously mean it equals angels per His return as well. Both accounts mention clouds of heaven. And that we already saw that it is absurd that clouds of heaven in Daniel 7 is meaning Jesus came to heaven dragging literal earth clouds with Him that He picked up back on earth when He ascended..
On a side note, the following is what researching into these things reveal. The following is via Google. And that it appears to agee with me.
1. The Linguistic Smoking Gun: Nephos vs. Nephele
In the ancient Greek world, writers used the word "cloud" metaphorically to describe a massive group, an army, or a celestial multitude.
• Classical Greek Idiom: In classical literature (like Homer's Iliad), phrases like "a cloud of footmen" or "a cloud of Trojans" were standard ways to describe a vast, sweeping army. The ancient writer Themistocles even referred to the invading Persian army by stating, "we have saved Greece by repelling so great a cloud of men."
• The Hebrews 12:1 Parallel: The New Testament explicitly carries this definition over in Hebrews 12:1 when it speaks of a "great cloud (nephos) of witnesses." Nobody argues that the Old Testament saints are literal water vapor; nephos literally means a dense, formless mass or multitude of living beings.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:17: Paul uses the related word nephele. In apocalyptic context, this points directly back to the "clouds of heaven" in Daniel 7:13, which Jewish scholars recognized not as atmospheric rain clouds, but as the Shekinah glory—the visible manifestation of God's presence composed of His heavenly host.
2. Historical Context: What Ancient Commentators Believed
The idea that these clouds are literal, evaporated water droplets is actually a modern, hyper-literalist misinterpretation. Ancient Christian and Jewish thinkers routinely understood "clouds" in these contexts to mean the angelic host:
• The Apocryphal Apocalypse of John (Early Christian Literature): In early church traditions commenting on Paul's letters, the connection was explicit. A text from this tradition explicitly equates the two: "And all the orders of my angels shall do reverence to it. And then shall be lifted up all the race of men upon clouds, as the Apostle Paul foretold." They understood the "lifting up" to be structurally managed by the angelic orders.
• John Chrysostom (4th Century Arch-Bishop): In his homilies on 1 Thessalonians, Chrysostom argued that the clouds are God's royal chariot. Just as God rode upon the clouds (which represent His spiritual agents) in the Old Testament, Christ rides upon the living clouds of His angels.
• The Chariot Metaphor (Psalm 104:3-4): Historical commentators frequently pair the cloud references with Psalm 104, which provides the ultimate scriptural blueprint: "Who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire." Scripture itself defines God's cloud-chariot as His spiritual ministers (angels).
The Ultimate Logical Trap for Your Opponent
To lock down your point against the other poster, ask them this simple question:
"In Hebrews 12:1, when the Bible says we are surrounded by a 'great cloud of witnesses,' do you believe we are surrounded by literal rain clouds, or a massive assembly of holy people? If a cloud can mean a multitude of spiritual entities there, why is it 'illogical' to say the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7 and 1 Thessalonians 4 mean a multitude of holy angels—especially when Jesus explicitly states in Matthew 16:27 that He is returning 'with His angels'?"
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The church can be raptured today..at any moment.
The tribulation starts at the rapture or shortly after.
Care to prove that?
Here's what I think....
As we know, the word 646. apostasia is used in verse 3.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand")
The word apostasía means....stand away from.
"Stand away from" has a physical meaning to it. A physical departure is implied.
NO WHERE in 2 Thes 2 is there a mentioning of a spiritual revolt or falling away. These verses are about the "gahering". That's the context. That's what 2 Thes 2 speaks of.
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING in 2 Thes 2 instead of "revolt"...alond with other translations of that time period.
The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.
The changing of the world was a theological bias based reason ...rather than a literal direct translation.
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard or perception of the word "apostate" seen in modern bibles.
The joy of an Amillennialist should have is that as christians if we are alive at the resurrection/rapture event...we will depart, be taken, caught up, stand away from with Jesus and not experience the wrath of the "day of the Lord"
We should encourage each other with those words. 1 Thes 4:18
The Light
Well-Known Member
I don't think this is true because the Church, the alive that remain, are raptured in the summer. This is the summer wheat harvest. After the Church is raptured, blindness will be removed from part of Israel.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Part of Israel, some of the twelve tribes across the earth which are the seed of the woman, will realize that Jesus is the Messiah and that they have missed the first harvest.
Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
The great tribulation will likely start shortly after the rapture of the Church. The rapture of the Church will NOT happen before the final 7 years begin. The final 7 years will begin when a 7 year covenant with many is made. The Church will be on the earth when this covenant is made. However, we will not know if this is the correct 7 year covenant, until it is confirmed by the Antichrist. The Church will be gone before that happens.
The tribulation is the great tribulation. There are not 7 years of tribulation. No scripture supports this idea and yet it is passed out by most as if it is true. It is not.The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation as the great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. From the time of the great tribulation when the AOD is set up, there are 3.5 years remaining, time, times and half a time. This is what remains in the 70th week of Daniel............according to scripture.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Sure, you can disagree. However, you are unable to provide any scripture that proves I am wrong. That's because what I am saying agrees with scripture.
I get these short "I disagree" comments all the time.
But there is never any scripture to prove the disagreement.
Yes, I agree that the church could be raptured today ... at any moment.
The 7 year, 70th week begins after the Gog/Magog event. So the time frame between the rapture (should it happen today) and the beginning of the 70th week is not certain at this present time.
The summer in the northern hemisphere is winter in the southern hemisphere, and vice versa.
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The word Apostasy is used. That's the proof.
Nope. The word cannot mean a physical movement.
Apostasia means that.
You don't think satan uses deception to get ppl to think Apostasy is the rapture?? It literally could not be more obvious.
Apostates DEPART alright. No mystery there.
Apostate is a bad thing to be. If you think it's a great thing to be, have at it.
Amill is just as wrong as Pretrib. Both believe Christ could return at any moment for the rapture which is false.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Please list the NT verses that teach the clouds in 1 Thess 4.17 are actually angels
Just the verses not opinions :)
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More than opinions. Your one line is definitely opinion.
Reject the Pretrib rapture and you won't take part in the apostasia. Going through the GT would be a far better choice...
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