Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Do you know him personally? Did you ask him if that was his intent? It seems to me your religious beliefs are based on assumptions and false beliefs. Anything put what the scriptures plainly says.
The Repentant Woman, Mary of Bethany, and Mary Magdalene: One Figure?
- Thread starter Moonwood
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Do you know him personally? Did you ask him if that was his intent? It seems to me your religious beliefs are based on assumptions and false beliefs. Anything put what the scriptures plainly says.
I’m not concerned about my interpretation — it accounts for all the textual details. The issue is that your interpretation contradicts itself at multiple points — see post #168. Before critiquing mine, it would help to resolve those contradictions so we can discuss John 11:2 on consistent terms.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Your assumption that the close proximity of the scripture means that Mary Magdalene and repentant whore are the same person is the same as Pope Gregory I, and scholars disagree.
How Mary Magdalene Became Misunderstood
How centuries of interpretation reshaped the story of one of the most important women in the Gospel narrative.
www.themidliferenaissance.com
Who framed Mary Magdalene?
Mary Magdalene is a model of a faithful, devoted follower of the Lord, as well as a strong, independent leader in the early church.
uscatholic.org
Friday essay: who was Mary Magdalene? Debunking the myth of the penitent prostitute
For centuries, Mary Magdalene was wrongly depicted as a repentant whore, diminishing her vital role as witness to the resurrection. A new film portraying her life does much to restore her character.
theconversation.com
Who Was Mary Magdalene? Was She a Prostitute? Her Story in the Bible Explained
Few women from the Bible receive as much press and intrigue from both Christians and non-Christians alike than Mary Magdalene. From Broadway hits such as Jesus Christ Superstar to Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code have read more and said more about her past than Scripture has indicated.
www.christianity.com
Your assumption that the close proximity of the scripture means that Mary Magdalene and repentant whore are the same person is the same as Pope Gregory I, and scholars disagree.
How Mary Magdalene Became Misunderstood
How centuries of interpretation reshaped the story of one of the most important women in the Gospel narrative.
Who framed Mary Magdalene?
Mary Magdalene is a model of a faithful, devoted follower of the Lord, as well as a strong, independent leader in the early church.
Friday essay: who was Mary Magdalene? Debunking the myth of the penitent prostitute
For centuries, Mary Magdalene was wrongly depicted as a repentant whore, diminishing her vital role as witness to the resurrection. A new film portraying her life does much to restore her character.
Who Was Mary Magdalene? Was She a Prostitute? Her Story in the Bible Explained
Few women from the Bible receive as much press and intrigue from both Christians and non-Christians alike than Mary Magdalene. From Broadway hits such as Jesus Christ Superstar to Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code have read more and said more about her past than Scripture has indicated.
My argument is actually based on the narrative markers the Evangelists themselves provide. The problem remains: your interpretation of John 11:2 contradicts itself at multiple points — see post #168. Before critiquing my interpretation, it would help to resolve those contradictions so we can discuss John 11:2 on consistent terms.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
What narrative markers of the Evangelists?
It is obviously not just my interpretation. What you believe only exists between your ears, not in the scriptures.
There are no contradictions.
You already know the narrative markers — they’re the ones I’ve laid out in the opening post and repeatedly in this thread. The issue isn’t that you haven’t seen them; it’s that your interpretation of John 11:2 contradicts itself at multiple points — see post #168.
Simply saying “there are no contradictions” doesn’t resolve them. Until that is addressed, we can’t discuss John 11:2 on consistent terms.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
And all of your issues have been addressed by me and others. No contradictions.
You’re saying “all of my issues have been addressed,” but the only replies you gave after post #168 were:
- “We have went over this enough.”
- “Don’t mind discussing things with you, just change topics.”
- “This was not really a debate.”
- “We can discuss another topic sometime.”
They were exits from the discussion, not answers to it.
Until your contradictions are addressed, we can’t discuss John 11:2 on consistent terms.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Saying “there’s no contradictions” is not the same as demonstrating it.
If there truly were none, you would pick one from post #168 and show why it isn’t a contradiction.
But you don’t — you simply repeat the claim.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
- Only two anointings exist Incorrect, there are four anointings *
- John 11:2 does not refer to either of them It refers to Lazarus' sister Mary of Bethany
- John 11:2 is a previous event correct
- John 11:2 is not a previous event incorrect
- John 11:2 is non‑specific correct
- John 11:2 is a distinct narrative it is a previous event
- John 11:2 gives no details correct
- John 11:2 has details (that you supplied) There are no details in the scriptures.
- John 11:2 is not a timeline correct
- John 11:2 is a previous timeline event No timeline given just a previous event
- John 11:2 identifies Mary Lazarus' sister Mary of Bethany
- John 11:2 does not identify a previous event This scripture indicates a previous event
- Scripture does not imply a previous event This scripture indicates a previous event.
- John 11:2 is a previous event and an identifier A previous event only
- “I stick to what Scripture says” I stick to what the scripture says
- “I stick to the storyline” I stick to what the scriptures says
- “John knows how to identify someone” If he wants to
- “I never said ‘third anointing narrative’” Who is "I"?
* The four anointings of Yeshua
1. In Luke 7:36-50, In the house of the Pharisee a woman wet Jesus’ feet with her tears, wiped them with her hair and anointed them with ointment from an alabaster flask. She is described as a “woman of the city who was a sinner”. Neither she nor the city are named, but it was probably in Galilee as the events surrounding this passage took place in Galilee. No scripture indicates this is Mary Magdalene.
2. In John 12:1-11, It appears that this anointing occurs in Lazarus' house in Bethany after Yeshua had raised him from the dead and as they were preparing-giving a dinner. Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha and Lazarus, anointed Jesus’ feet with her hair using ointment of pure nard and wiped them with her hair. Judas Iscariot complained about the waste. This anointing took place six days (John 12:1) before the Passover at which Jesus was crucified.
3. In Matthew 26:1-13 and Mark 14:1-9, an unnamed woman anointed Jesus in the house of Simon the leper in the town of Bethany. She anointed Jesus’ head with very expensive ointment of pure nard from an alabaster flask. In this case some of Jesus’ disciples said to themselves, that it was a waste, Prompting Jesus to defend her action, describing it as a beautiful thing done to anoint him for burial. These anointings took place 2 days before the Passover at which Jesus was crucified.
4. It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. John 11:2 As far as sequences of anointings....This happens before #2 and #3 and since Mary of Bethany is not said to be a whore, it is a separate anointing. This reference does not fit any other scriptural reference of anointing.
Now it is my opinion that Lazarus' sister is Mary of Bethany and it is Mary Magdalene. (Mary called Magdalene) And it is my opinion that #3 is referring to Mary Magdaline and is a separate event because one event occurs 2 days before the Passover and #2 is referring to Mary Magdalene and occurs 6 days before the Passover.
Note:1 As far as Yeshua healing demons from women.....And the twelve were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means. Luke 8:1-3
Note:2 There were a few Mary's associated with Yeshua....
- Mary Magdelene, one of the women at the cross, became a devoted follower and financial supporter of Jesus. Mary Magdeline and Mary of Bethany are probably the same person.
- Mary the mother of Jesus was at the cross.
- Mary, the mother of James and Joseph also stood at the cross.
- Mary, the wife of Clopas, watched in the crowd.
About Mary of Bethany....
What Does the Bible Say About Mary Of Bethany?
Bible verses about Mary Of Bethany
Last edited:
Marking “correct” or “incorrect” next to the list doesn’t resolve any of the contradictions I documented — it actually adds new ones.
For example:
- In response to "John 11:2 does not refer to either of them," you said "It refers to Lazarus' sister Mary of Bethany," but you actually said that John 1:2 doesn't refer to Luke 7 and John 12.
- In response to "John 11:2 has details (that you supplied)," you repeated "There are no details in the scriptures," which is still contradictory because you did supply them in post #109. I pointed that out at the time:
- You denied having said "I stick to the storyline," but that’s exactly what you’re saying when you write “I stick with what the scripture says” (post #83), "I am...sticking with the storyline in the scriptures" (post #97), and “...it is the storyline” (post #147).
- You marked "John 11:2 is a previous event and an identifier" as "A previous event only," but in post #165 you said, "John 11:2 is more or less a note to identify Mary...a previous event."
- You marked “John 11:2 is non‑specific” as correct, and “John 11:2 is a previous event” as correct — but a previous event must be specific enough to identify.
- You marked “John 11:2 gives no details” as correct, while also treating it as a distinct anointing narrative — but a distinct narrative requires details, setting, and Jesus present.
- On September 22nd, in post #31 I quoted you saying in post #27: "They are two separate accounts with a lot of differences and no scripture ties them together" — but today at 7:31 AM you edited it to: "They are three separate accounts with a lot of differences and no scripture ties them together."
- On September 24th in post #111 I said to you, "But now you’re treating the anointing reference in John 11:2 as a third distinct anointing...," and your affirmed that in post #113 by saying, "Yes" — but today at 7:22 am today you edited post #110 to now say there were "three distinct anointing events...and one note of a previous anointing.
But your “four anointings” claim only exists because you split John 12 from Matthew 26 / Mark 14 — even though those passages describe the same Bethany anointing. And at the beginning you claimed there were only two anointings, then three, and now four, even though Scripture only contains two: Luke 7 and John 12. John 11:2 refers back to Luke 7, not to a separate event.
These new contradictions come from your own “corrections.” Trying to rewrite history on your end of our discussion and split one event into two doesn’t resolve the contradictions I documented; it just creates new ones. And none of them resolve the core issue: John 11:2 identifies Lazarus’s sister, Mary, by referring to a past hair‑wiping event. John 12 hasn’t happened yet.
Last edited:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No you won't except the answer.....the answer....It refers to Lazarus' sister Mary of Bethany. Is the answer John 11:2 does not refer to another scripture.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The scripture is the storyline........The storyline comes into play when you are determining the meaning of a word. And I have told you to stop with the big posts. If I responed to them with one post it would get crazy. I am going to start picking out one thing and answer it and ignoring the rest of the post.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Identifier of a UFO? It says what it says.....It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. Not too complicated....previous event.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
In the earlier posts I as talking about the anointing of the sinful woman and Mary Magdalene being different.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Saying you will ignore the rest of the post doesn’t resolve the contradictions — it just avoids them.
Again, you've said that John 11:2 does not refer to Luke and John 12, which is why I included it as one of your statements in my bullet point list: "John 11:2 does not refer to either of them," as in "John 11:2 does not refer to Luke 7 and John 12."
You denied having said “I stick to the storyline,” but you said, "I am...sticking with the storyline in the scriptures" (post #97)," and you just repeated the same idea again: “The scripture is the storyline” and “The storyline comes into play…” Those statements are you sticking to the storyline. You’re denying the wording while reaffirming the concept.
So this contradiction remains:
You said John 11:2 does not refer to one of those two events — specifically not Luke 7.
But if John 11:2 does not refer to Luke 7, and John 12 hasn’t happened yet, then John is pointing to an event that does not exist. This contradicts your claim that you “stick to the storyline,” because the storyline contains only one earlier hair‑wiping event prior to John 12: Luke 7.
You’re not addressing the contradiction. In post #165 you said John 11:2 is “a note to identify Mary… a previous event.” That’s you calling it both an identifier and a previous event. Later you marked it as “A previous event only.” Those two statements contradict each other. Sarcasm doesn’t resolve the contradiction — it just avoids it.
No, I’m not giving Scripture rules. I’m pointing out the logical requirements created by your own claims. When you say John 11:2 is a “previous event,” then it must be specific enough to identify. When you treat John 11:2 as a “distinct narrative,” then it must contain details, a setting, and Jesus present. Those aren’t rules I invented — they’re the conditions required by your own categories, and the two claims contradict each other.
You say that in the earlier posts you were talking about the anointing of the sinful woman and Mary Magdalene being different. But that explanation doesn’t match the actual posts I quoted.
On September 22nd, in post #31 I quoted you saying in post #27: "They are two separate accounts with a lot of differences and no scripture ties them together." Today at 7:31 AM you edited that same post and changed it to: "They are three separate accounts with a lot of differences and no scripture ties them together."
That’s not clarification — that’s altering your earlier statement to "correct" one of the contradictions I documented in post #168: your initial acknowledgement of two anointing events and later adding a third. And your explanation now doesn’t address the fact that you edited the wording.
On September 24th in post #111 I said to you, "But now you’re treating the anointing reference in John 11:2 as a third distinct anointing...," and your affirmed that in post #113 by saying, "Yes" that same day. Today at 7:22 am today you edited post #110 to now say there were "three distinct anointing events...and one note of a previous anointing."
That’s not a “mistake”; it’s a willful act of altering your earlier statement to “correct” one of the contradictions I documented in post #168 — your initial acknowledgement of two anointing events and later adding a third.
And your new “four anointings” claim only exists because you split John 12 from Matthew 26 / Mark 14 — even though those passages describe the same Bethany anointing.
Last edited:
1. Are there Two, Three, or Four Anointings?
Your original claim: Two anointings
In post #52 (September 23rd), you stated there were two anointing events:
1. Luke 7:36–50 – The “Sinful Woman”
– Galilee, about a year before the crucifixion
– Publicly known sinner
– Anoints Jesus’ feet, weeping, wiping with hair
– Act of repentance; Jesus forgives her
– Unnamed; not identified as Mary Magdalene
2. Matthew 26:6–13 / Mark 14:3–9 / John 12:1–8 – Mary of Bethany
– Bethany, six days before the crucifixion
– Identified as Mary of Bethany (John 11:2)
– Anoints Jesus with costly perfume
– Act of devotion; not called a sinner
Your revised claim: Three anointings
In post #110 (September 24), you changed the number to three anointings — and then edited the post on October 5 to make it three anointings plus one “note of a previous anointing.”
You wrote:
You then listed:
This edit was made to avoid one of the contradictions I documented.
In post #191 (October 5), you introduced four anointings for the first time:
This directly contradicts your earlier grouping of Matthew 26:6-13, Mark 14:3-9, and John 12:1-11 as one event.
You must now explain:
Commit to ONE of the following, and cite the passage(s) that support your choice:
2. Distinct Claims You Have Made About John 11:2:
Commit to ONE of the following interpretations of John 11:2, and cite the passage(s) that support your choice:
Before we proceed any further, you must commit to clear, stable positions and stop revising your claims after they’ve been challenged. The contradictions you’ve created are not matters of interpretation — they are matters of accuracy, consistency, and accountability. You have repeatedly changed the number of anointings, redefined John 11:2 in mutually exclusive ways, and altered past posts to avoid contradictions. That pattern has to end here.
The discussion cannot continue until you provide direct, text‑based answers to the questions above and commit to one count of anointings and one interpretation of John 11:2. No new claims, no retroactive edits, no redefinitions. Choose one option, cite the passages that support it, and stand by it. Only then can we move forward.
Your original claim: Two anointings
In post #52 (September 23rd), you stated there were two anointing events:
1. Luke 7:36–50 – The “Sinful Woman”
– Galilee, about a year before the crucifixion
– Publicly known sinner
– Anoints Jesus’ feet, weeping, wiping with hair
– Act of repentance; Jesus forgives her
– Unnamed; not identified as Mary Magdalene
2. Matthew 26:6–13 / Mark 14:3–9 / John 12:1–8 – Mary of Bethany
– Bethany, six days before the crucifixion
– Identified as Mary of Bethany (John 11:2)
– Anoints Jesus with costly perfume
– Act of devotion; not called a sinner
Your revised claim: Three anointings
In post #110 (September 24), you changed the number to three anointings — and then edited the post on October 5 to make it three anointings plus one “note of a previous anointing.”
You wrote:
You then listed:
- Mary of Bethany (John 11:1–3; John 12:1–8; Mark 14:3–9; Matthew 26:6–13)
- The unnamed sinful woman (Luke 7:36–38)
- The unnamed woman at Simon the leper’s house (Mark 14:3–9; Matthew 26:6–13) – And you added your personal belief that this unnamed woman is Mary of Bethany / Mary Magdalene.
This edit was made to avoid one of the contradictions I documented.
Your newest claim: Four anointings
In post #191 (October 5), you introduced four anointings for the first time:
- Luke 7:36–50
- John 12:1–11
- Matthew 26:6–13 / Mark 14:3–9
- John 11:2 — which you now treat as a separate anointing event
This directly contradicts your earlier grouping of Matthew 26:6-13, Mark 14:3-9, and John 12:1-11 as one event.
You must now explain:
- Why you originally grouped Matthew 26:6-13, Mark 14:3-9, and John 12:1-11 as one event, and later split them into two separate events.
- Why the number of anointings evolved from 2 → 3 → 3+1 → 4
Commit to ONE of the following, and cite the passage(s) that support your choice:
- a. two anointing events
- b. three anointing events
- c. four anointing events
2. Distinct Claims You Have Made About John 11:2:
1. John 11:2 refers to a previous anointing
- “Mary anointed Yeshua more than once.”
- “Mary anointed Yeshua previously.”
- “It points to an anointing that happened before.”
- “Just that it is Mary and it happened before Lazarus was sick.”
- “John 11:2 is… just a previous event.”
- “Only establishes that Mary of Bethany anointed Jesus more than once.”
2. John 11:2 is not a specific event
- “No specific event given.”
- “Not a specific event.”
- “Wasn’t a specific event.”
- “Just another anointment.”
- “Does not refer to a specific anointing.”
3. John 11:2 has no details
- “No details given.”
- “Do not give the details.”
- “I am the one that said it did not have details.”
- “John does not tell us what event or the details.”
- “It says what it says and without much details.”
- “I'm pointing out that there are no details.”
4. John 11:2 gives no timeline
- “The timeline is not given.”
- “Doesn’t give a timeline for when Mary had anointed Him before.”
- “There is not enough information to establish a timeline.”
- “Loose sequence of events.”
- “Doesn’t point anywhere, backwards or forwards.”
- “There is no real timeline here.”
5. John 11:2 gives no location
- “Does not give a location.”
6. John 11:2 does give a location
- “Occurred at Lazarus’ home in Bethany.”
7. John 11:2 happened when Lazarus was sick/died
- “Occurred when Lazarus was sick/died.”
8. John 11:2 happened before Lazarus was sick
- “Happened before Lazarus was sick.”
9. John 11:2 identifies Lazarus's sister Mary
- “This scripture said who it is.”
- “Note to identify Mary.”
10. John 11:2 identifies Mary Magdalene
- “Is speaking about Mary Magdalene.”
11. John 11:2 refers to an anointing with no scriptural reference
- “It says it is an anointing, but gives no scriptural reference.”
12. John 11:2 refers to the anointing in John 12
- “Mary of Bethany AKA Mary Magdalene (John 11:1–3; John 12:1–8…).”
- “You have a timestamp… 6 days before Passover.” (This timestamp is from John 12.)
Commit to ONE of the following interpretations of John 11:2, and cite the passage(s) that support your choice:
- Non-specific event
a. John 11:2 refers to a previous non‑specific anointing event – no details, no location, no timeline, no scriptural reference.
- Specific event
b. John 11:2 refers to a previous specific anointing event – a real event with identifiable details, a setting, and Jesus present.
- No event
c. John 11:2 refers to no event at all and functions only as a character note – merely identifying Lazarus's sister Mary with no reference to any anointing event.
Before we proceed any further, you must commit to clear, stable positions and stop revising your claims after they’ve been challenged. The contradictions you’ve created are not matters of interpretation — they are matters of accuracy, consistency, and accountability. You have repeatedly changed the number of anointings, redefined John 11:2 in mutually exclusive ways, and altered past posts to avoid contradictions. That pattern has to end here.
The discussion cannot continue until you provide direct, text‑based answers to the questions above and commit to one count of anointings and one interpretation of John 11:2. No new claims, no retroactive edits, no redefinitions. Choose one option, cite the passages that support it, and stand by it. Only then can we move forward.
Last edited:
Similar threads
