Who are the Saved?

[ScottA]

That is at the final redemption. Being given an eternal body after leaving this mortal body. The idea of having 2 bodies at the present time is based on a bad reading and a somewhat unstable mind.

That means taking away from much of what is written. I am not going to quote it all--you should know better--and thus are accountable for all. Here's just one:

2 Corinthians 5:17​

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.​

But even this can be misconstrued, or misinterpreted, leaving us to choose. However, if one believes his flesh body is new and born of the Spirit, he only kids himself and believes a lie. For as it has already been stated, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

 

[ScottA]

How you arrive at 2 bodies is basically schizoid Gnosticism. Have you ever been diagnosed?

I'm not claiming to be sinless...I'm claiming that in Christ is no sin. There is balance that an extreme view can't perceive.

I am claiming to have walked without sin in the past...because I was translated to walk where Jesus is. In Zion.

The walk is real. There is victory in Christ....which people here will deny claiming to be sinners until they die...and that's the case because they have never entered into Christ.

Okay Episkopos, I can see you are trying...and I know this is your thread and you should try to save face, I get that. But we all have a need to be available to hone our beliefs--if that is what we are stating, and most are. And these times are for that very purpose of being lead "unto all truth." Some of the things we now speak of may yet are foundational, and rightly so, for there are new believers among us. But we also are living in the times of building and finishing the works of Christ. That is where "rightly dividing the word of truth" comes in and is so important. Even so, we are on the outer limbs from the Branch, and many have strayed from what is actually true, spreading leaves that are destine to wither and die or be cut off and thrown into the fire. And many are victims of former false teachings.

But if we are to represent Christ correctly, we need to acknowledge and preach if we will preach, that there is a natural body and a spiritual body, that what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit, and no version of the flesh inherits the new heavens and earth, for all these are the kingdom of God.

Save your face if you must, but if you stray too far... I'll leave it at that.

 

[ScottA]

The big issue here...is that it is hard to imagine being without the bodies we have known for so long and become accustom to.

But does that mean that we should not want to imagine the reality of changing from flesh to spirit, or from this world to the kingdom of God--which we have been told requires, "the renewing of your mind?"

In that vein of thought, we are also told that "we shall see Him [Jesus] as He is." --So, is Christ in you? Can you "see Him?" "As He is?" Is He physical flesh "in you?" You can see those who are physical and flesh, right? ...So, what are you thinking--that He is in you in "spirit" and that is some kind of ooomy, ooomy temporary existence, like His is with you in spirit like He's just happy for you? Or rather that God is spirit, and He is God, so when He comes into you He is actually coming into you and residing "within" you...in spirit--which by definition would be Him "coming in the glory of the Father", just as it is written?

With all that has been said in this one thread alone, it is hard to imagine that some have even thought this all through. Anyway, God is spirit, but Jesus in you is not? Or is it YES, Jesus is God, He is spirit...and maybe I should reconsider the whole physical body and flesh thing that so many want to believe? Or did you just think some of this is simply impossible--impossible for God?

 

[sondring7]

Your great error is to think that Paul taught anything different than Jesus.

Are you a follower of Christ?

The gospel you adhere to is definitely from down under...the nether regions.

+++The gospel you adhere to is definitely from down under...the nether regions
Apparently so is the Bible :)
What did Jesus via Paul teach was required of you to be saved, justified, HS sealed ?
1 Cor 15.1-4 results in Eph 1.13, Col 2.13
What did Jesus via Paul teach was your performance requirements to be saved, justified, HS sealed ?
Gal 2.16, Rom 3.28, Eph 2.8-9, Rom 4.5, Rom 5.1

 

[Episkopos]

+++The gospel you adhere to is definitely from down under...the nether regions
Apparently so is the Bible :)
What did Jesus via Paul teach was required of you to be saved, justified, HS sealed ?
1 Cor 15.1-4 results in Eph 1.13, Col 2.13
What did Jesus via Paul teach was your performance requirements to be saved, justified, HS sealed ?
Gal 2.16, Rom 3.28, Eph 2.8-9, Rom 4.5, Rom 5.1

You are trying to build your understanding on the wrong foundation. You are NOT answering any of my questions...just adding in your own misunderstandings based on an indoctrination away from Jesus Christ.

If you just want to be a poster person for error I will ignore you in future as a lost cause. Engage the reason why you disrespect Jesus and what He says. Did Paul die for you? Is Paul the son of God?

 

[Lambano]

Here you go. A Paul-Only bible for you. Apparently, the Marcionite Church (Marcionite Christian Church) still exists today,18 centuries after Marcion was excommunicated for heresy. Here's their Bible. It consists of The Evangelium, a redacted version of the Gospel of Luke; and The Apostolikon, a collection of the letters of Paul.

I should note that Marcion was a follower of Paul, and his heresy was teaching that the entity YHWH who created the world in Genesis 1.1 was a demiurge (a lesser god) and distinct from the Father of Jesus Christ. That is why the Marcionite canon contains no writings from the Old Testament, none of the Synoptic Gospels, none of the letters from James, John, or Peter, and no Revelation.

 

[Episkopos]

Here you go. A Paul-Only bible for you. Apparently, the Marcionite Church (Marcionite Christian Church) still exists today,1800 years after Marcion was excommunicated for heresy. Here's their Bible. It consists of The Evangelium, a redacted version of the Gospel of Luke, and The Apostolikon, a collection of the letters of Paul.

I should note that Marcion was a follower of Paul, and his heresy was teaching that the YHWH who created the world in Genesis 1.1 was a demiurge (a lesser god) and distinct from the Father of Jesus Christ. That is why the Marcionite canon contains no writings from the Old Testament, none of the Synoptic Gospels, none of the letters from James, John, or Peter, and no Revelation.

Very nice! The modern take on Marcionism is dispensatonalism....whereby Jesus is seen as an OT character and only Paul administers Christ properly.

Just another way to avoid the gospel of Christ.

 

[Jay Ross]

The Bible clearly states that those who take root in God's fertile soil/field, will inherit His promise of the whole earth and everlasting life.

The seed that does not grow in God's fertile soil/field will be lost and judged to be unrighteous.

Shalom

 

[Episkopos]

The Bible clearly states that those who take root in God's fertile soil/field, will inherit His promise of the whole earth and everlasting life.

Amen. Dig roots downward and bear fruit upward.

The seed that does not grow in God's fertile soil/field will be lost and judged to be unrighteous.

Shalom

Judged to be unfruitful...and therefore rejected.

 

[Episkopos]

When speaking of truth and eternal reality, many will think it harsh...compared with their imaginary worlds where there is a utopia that awaits them. They deem themselves as being good for holding such elevated views of their true condition.

But utopian ideals are very harmful to whoever doesn't subscribe to them by those who hold to them. We saw this in the 20th century with the rise of both Communism and Nazism. Both promised a utopia and both were disasters...committing great evils in the name of creating a better world.

The same applies for the utopian ideals of religious ideologues whose doctrines don't match with the counsel of God we read in the bible. Extremist views can seemingly be plucked out of the pages of the bible whereby people create their own reality....a reality that favours them, that fulfills their self-interested needs. But always at the cost of the lives of others...and ultimately, in the hands of a just God, the forfeiting of their own lives.

The bible seems to encourage an ideology centered on a fantasy world...when read through the eyes of a religious hubris...whereby people are just waiting to "go to heaven". A "going to heaven" cult. Not dissimilar to the pagan Norse idea of going to Valhalla. Such is what happens when the carnal mind tries to parse the message of the gospel.

The truth then is seen as harsh and those who speak it are seen as nasty bubble busters. But it is far better to awaken from a false dream that will soon turn into a nightmare...than await the inevitable destruction of everything one has wished for before their very eyes. A dose of reality is in order for the modern church. And the ideologues will go kicking and screaming if they go at all.

 

[Lizbeth]

Believing things about Jesus doesn't save you. That is a very superficial belief system...based on a religious transaction whereby God is absent. How do you know that God approves of your conclusions? Why don't you believe you are poor naked wretched and blind as Jesus says?

FAITH in Him saves. That is clearly and simply what the bible teaches. Just that we do also need to follow/obey the Lord and endure His chastisements and pay the price to keep following Him until our race runs out when we die.

Yes we're all poor blind and naked in our own right, apart from Him. The more we go along the more the Lord shows us the truth of that and the more we seek and long to be completely free of our self. "I" must decrease, that He will increase. As long as we're following the Lord He is directing our steps in such a way as to be leading us on the right path, the narrow path, and we need to do our best to trust HIM or at least cling to Him in moments when we're not trusting....and there may be times when we can't hold on but He is holding on to us.... through whatever we are facing that He in His sovereignty is leading us through, whether distresses, our own weaknesses, perplexities, challenges, fears, mistreatment, injustices, embarrassments, deprivations, etc.......we are His workmanship and He is leading us in triumph as long we don't give up. There is a sense that everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only what can't be shaken remains. And this is not just a two dimensional end result but a kind of ongoing three-dimensional reality, I believe. Because it is IN SPIRIT.

The natural mind loves complexities and to try and figure everything out down to the nth degree. I think it wants to feel in control for one thing. But it is Lord who makes things simple and simply illuminates the truth. His ways are not complicated.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are quoting the difference I have been speaking of, and what you have not acknowledged: That it is the body of sin and death that is "the servant of sin", while "the Son" "a life-giving spirit"--not that flesh body of sin--"abideth ever." The scriptures speak of two different bodies, one that sins, One that does not.

So then, if you say the body of sin and death "can stop sinning", can you not see that Jesus has said differently, even in what you quoted? Or do you deny that "the Son" whom we are to be "like" is "a life-giving spirit?" Is that what you will say to Him when you "see Him as He is?"

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone."​

​

@sondring7

Yes, and it is only through the Spirit that we are delivered from the body that sins (body of death). But even so, we still "have" sin as John says, in the sense that we are still carting that body (old man) around with us until we die. Just that we don't have to be obeying it and walking in it. When we are obeying the Spirit, walking in the new man, we are not obeying the old man/body of death but being victorious over it.

 

[Lizbeth]

Have sinned. Past tense. I agree.

Do we have to keep sinning forever and ever? No. I believe righteousness is about what we do now.

Thanks for the like, brother :)

Yes, but also, it says take heed who thinks he stands, lest he fall. It is not ourselves we are to rely on, but God, that all glory be to Him. And He will test and try and may even allow us to stumble to keep us humble. "That we might know" our Help comes from Him and needs to. Not so He can pounce on us and say, aha! or anything like that, but I see Him as teaching/training/discipling His children for our spiritual good as we grow....He is for us not against us.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sorry, I still don't agree with this. I don't agree that only Jesus is ever without sin. We ought to walk as He walked. I think not sinning is kind of the beginning. People in the Bible were able to be blameless even before Christ and the Holy Spirit. Noah was one of them. Also Zaccheus and Elizabeth, John the Baptists parents.

God actually expected people to obey Him then. He expects us to obey Him now.

"You shouldn't do it in your own strength. Self-effort robs God."

I don't really see that in Scripture. We are to love the Lord with all our strength. That's what Ill continue to do.

Yes I agree we are just to do all we know to do the best we can and don't try to think too much about it. Some of it may be from Him and some of it is of ourselves. But as we go along we find the Lord will start to teach and show us how our own strength falls short. It is not to condemn, but is so we will begin to reach for and seek what we still need to apprehend, from Him. Love this Psalm, "I lift my eyes up to the mountains, where does my help come from?...my Help comes from you, Maker of heaven and earth." (Helper being the Holy Spirit)

 

[Lizbeth]

Where is Outer darkness?

Maybe Rev 22:15 describes it ?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Those people outside the city of light (in darkness) might see the city of light from a distance Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth realizing what they have missed.

Amen, sinners/unbelievers in other words. Which could include those who did once know the Lord but fell away into sin.

 

[Lizbeth]

I would suggest you do a word study on the word used there, and it's related words.

Biblical "hope" is not the same as our wistful, maybe kind of hope.

Regardless, this passage makes a clear declaration.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

In in fact you are God's child now, you can know that when He appears, you shall be like Him. This is not a qualified statement other than that you are His child.

If you are His child now, this will happen.

Much love!

Amen, it is a hope born of FAITH. It is a "hope" only because it hasn't manifested yet. Like Abraham hoped because he had faith in what God said He would bring about, but hadn't yet.

 

[Lizbeth]

If you are His child is a conditional statement. You also have to endure to the end. It's not automatic.

Modern western Christianity is simply obsessed with assuring people of salvation. And them hyper fixating on whether they get to heaven or not. I think the focus should be obeying God in the present. Let Him sort it out on judgement day when we each give an account of our lives.

Hyper-grace is one ditch, but we need to also beware of the ditch on the other side of the right road. Neither one is IN SPIRIT.

 

[Lizbeth]

Since you believe 1 John 3, do you agree we ought not to sin at all?

1 John 3:9

King James Version
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Who is born of God? Our new man or old man? It is our new man that is born of God and cannot sin. (While the old man can't help BUT sin in some way or other.) John is not saying that it is impossible for a born again believer to commit a sin (IF we sin we have an Advocate)....it's a matter of which one we learn to or choose to walk in....walk after the spirit or walk after the flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

Who is born of God? Our new man or old man? It is our new man that is born of God and cannot sin.

No, all sin is the responsibility of the inner man. What you are espousing is a new age Gnosticism. Each of us is personally responsible for our sins. That's why repentance is required. In your scheme the inner man is not held responsible for what the person is doing. The opposite is true. We are each responsible for our actions...the will is in the inner man. We allow the outer man to do its thing...until we call it out.

 

[Episkopos]

Amen, sinners/unbelievers in other words. Which could include those who did once know the Lord but fell away into sin.

This is false of course. All the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. The ones outside the gates of the holy city that are not permitted entry are the evangelical types that name and claim to be holy but lie.