The t.r.u.m.p ignorantly speaks Scripture

[GeneZ]

Matthew 7 says few find the way. It does not say God provides only a few teachers.

Not what I am saying.

There will be many teachers.
Too many!

But only a few will teach knowing what leads to finding life.
Life more abundantly.

MANY will be teaching, knowing what people want to hear.
Only a few will teach what they NEED to hear.
Teaching what the people need to hear. That will bug many, and they will resent it.

For the time will come when people will not put up with/tolerate sound doctrine. ​

Look!

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

​

That says?

There are to be a great number of teachers!
Yet only a few will teach sound doctrine, leading believers onto full maturity in Christ.

 

[GeneZ]

If Peter & Paul were taught exactly the same by Jesus then you will EASILY be able to show where Jesus VIA Paul taught how believers today avoid 'destruction'
If you don't know, then say so :)


I requested if you don't know, then say so :)
No verses from Paul so you don't know but instead choose to insult.
What was that about growing up ? Hmm not 2 EZ 4 GZ :)

Truth is truth.

The game you are playing with me is by setting a condition by limiting me to whom I can select, as to quote, showing truth.

Truth is truth.

 

[sondring7]

Truth is truth.

The game you are playing with me is by setting a condition by limiting me to whom I can select, as to quote, showing truth.

Truth is truth.

Truth is truth

If Peter & Paul were taught exactly the same by Jesus then you will EASILY be able to show where Jesus VIA Paul taught how believers today avoid 'destruction'
If you don't know, then say so :)

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

The means to teach one not to live an ungodly life is not the same word used in a teacher/student arrangement.
This teaching is like what a parent will do to teach his child a lesson not to do something.

How?

By letting letting the child do it and end up hurting himself.
He will learn the hard way.
Very effective method.
He will avoid doing such a thing ever again.

Understanding that would help Christians better understand that God actually was teaching them to straighten up and fly right when they thought God was about to give up on them.

Genez, I agree that παιδεύω is broader than merely transferring information. It can carry the idea of training, education, correction and discipline. “Training” is therefore a good rendering in Titus 2:12.

But your statement that this is “not the same word used in a teacher/student arrangement” doesn't hold up.

Acts 22:3 uses the same verb:

παρὰ τοὺς πόδας Γαμαλιὴλ πεπαιδευμένος

Paul was “educated/instructed at the feet of Gamaliel.”

That is literally a teacher/student relationship, and πεπαιδευμένος is from παιδεύω.

Acts 7:22 uses it again when Moses was educated/instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians.

So παιδεύω itself does not mean specifically “a parent lets the child hurt himself so he learns the hard way.” That may be one illustration of disciplinary training, but that mechanism is not contained in the word.

Titus 2:12 says God's grace trains/forms us to renounce ungodliness and worldly desires and to live self-controlled, righteous and godly lives.

That gives me greater precision than the English word “teaches,” which I gladly accept.

But it hasn't shown that the English reader was doctrinally misled.

And it still hasn't established your original proposition that studying an English translation for yourself beyond some basic point becomes deception from the Devil.

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

Not what I am saying.

There will be many teachers.
Too many!

But only a few will teach knowing what leads to finding life.
Life more abundantly.

MANY will be teaching, knowing what people want to hear.
Only a few will teach what they NEED to hear.
Teaching what the people need to hear. That will bug many, and they will resent it.

For the time will come when people will not put up with/tolerate sound doctrine. ​

Look!

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

​

That says?

There are to be a great number of teachers!
Yet only a few will teach sound doctrine, leading believers onto full maturity in Christ.

I agree with 2 Timothy 4:3. There will be many teachers who tell people what they want to hear, and believers should not reject sound doctrine because it is uncomfortable.

But the verse still does not say that only a few teachers will teach sound doctrine.

Matthew 7 says few find the way. That is a statement about those finding the way, not a numerical statement about teachers.

2 Timothy 4:3 says people will accumulate many teachers according to their own desires. It does not say, by contrast, that God will provide only a few true teachers.

And “leading believers to full maturity in Christ” comes much closer to Ephesians 4:11–16, where several gifts equip the saints and the whole body participates in growth toward maturity.

So I agree that many teachers can be wrong.

What I do not see established is the next step: many bad teachers therefore means only a few specially qualified teachers are the necessary route to spiritual maturity.

And being resented for teaching something difficult does not prove the teaching is sound. The doctrine still has to be tested against Scripture.

 

[Serve your King!]

There are none.
---------------------
But there are some worse than others.
Looking at his record Trump is the worst.
---------------------
We can be confident that Donald Trump will be viewed as the worst president in U.S. history, with Richard Nixon now a distant second.

I nominate president Autopen!

 

[GeneZ]

Truth is truth

If Peter & Paul were taught exactly the same by Jesus then you will EASILY be able to show where Jesus VIA Paul taught how believers today avoid 'destruction'
If you don't know, then say so :)

Peter was taught by the Lord before the Church age began.
Peter was taught as a disciple of a rabbi as a Jew.

Paul was a Pharisee taught directly by the Lord for the Church age the mystery of the Church which was hidden prior to the Church age..
Ephesians 3:3–6 Colossians 1:26–27

Peter needed to catch up concerning Paul.

 

[GeneZ]

I agree with 2 Timothy 4:3. There will be many teachers who tell people what they want to hear, and believers should not reject sound doctrine because it is uncomfortable.

But the verse still does not say that only a few teachers will teach sound doctrine.

Let's see.
Tell you what....

When it says that 'a great many' will not be teaching sound doctrine that people will seek out to teach them?
That a"great number" will not teach sound doctrine?

And, that the general church population will not tolerate sound doctrine?

What does that leave us with?
Not many teachers teaching sound doctrine.

That is how we can know only a few.

Read it again, please?

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

​

2 Timothy 4:3​

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

Let's see.
Tell you what....

When it says that 'a great many' will not be teaching sound doctrine that people will seek out to teach them?
That a"great number" will not teach sound doctrine?

And, that the general church population will not tolerate sound doctrine?

What does that leave us with?
Not many teachers teaching sound doctrine.

That is how we can know only a few.

Read it again, please?

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

​

2 Timothy 4:3​

I read it again.

It says people who will not tolerate sound doctrine will gather around themselves a great number of teachers according to their own desires.

I agree that means there can be a great many unsound teachers.

But “a great many unsound teachers” does not logically tell us how many sound teachers exist.

The verse gives us the size of one group. It does not give us the size of the other group.

And Paul says “they will not tolerate sound doctrine.” He does not say the entire or general church population will reject sound doctrine.

So I can agree that sound teachers may be greatly outnumbered without turning that into something the verse does not actually state: “only a few sound teachers exist.”

If Matthew 7 is supposed to supply the word “few,” then we are back to the original problem: Matthew 7 says few find the way. It does not say few teachers teach the way.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Can you please just answer my question? = If you disagree, please list your perfectly moral president!

There's not one person who has ever been born who is perfectly moral other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God. You know that. I don't know of one president we've had who wasn't serving the same NWO Antichrist agenda. That doesn't mean that I have to approve of a sadistic murdering racist rapist as a president.

 

[GeneZ]

I read it again.

It says people who will not tolerate sound doctrine will gather around themselves a great number of teachers according to their own desires.

I agree that means there can be a great many unsound teachers.

But “a great many unsound teachers” does not logically tell us how many sound teachers exist.

Not many sound teachers are to be found today.

Very few.

........

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

Not many sound teachers are to be found today.

Very few.

........

Maybe there are very few sound teachers today.

But that is now your conclusion about the present condition of the church, not something 2 Timothy 4:3 actually quantifies.

The verse tells us there will be many teachers gathered by people who want to hear what suits their own desires.

It does not tell us how many sound teachers exist alongside them.

So if you say, “very few sound teachers are to be found today,” that proposition needs its own evidence. It cannot simply be read back into 2 Timothy 4:3.

 

[GeneZ]

Maybe there are very few sound teachers today.

But that is now your conclusion about the present condition of the church, not something 2 Timothy 4:3 actually quantifies.

The verse tells us there will be many teachers gathered by people who want to hear what suits their own desires.

It does not tell us how many sound teachers exist alongside them.

So if you say, “very few sound teachers are to be found today,” that proposition needs its own evidence. It cannot simply be read back into 2 Timothy 4:3.

Fine....

You and I will stand before Him alone to give account for only for ourselves.

If you truly believe that there are many good teachers today that are able to bring believers to full maturity in Christ?
Not just through the baby stage?

Go for it.

 

[GeneZ]

So if you say, “very few sound teachers are to be found today,” that proposition needs its own evidence. It cannot simply be read back into 2 Timothy 4:3.

Take note how 2 Timothy 4:3 is rendered in the Amplified Version.

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine and accurate instruction ​

[that challenges them with God’s truth]; but wanting to have their ears tickled [with something ​

pleasing], they will accumulate for themselves [many] teachers [one after another, chosen] to ​

satisfy their own desires and to support the errors they hold.​

(Amplified Bible)

 

[sondring7]

Peter was taught by the Lord before the Church age began.
Peter was taught as a disciple of a rabbi as a Jew.

Paul was a Pharisee taught directly by the Lord for the Church age the mystery of the Church which was hidden prior to the Church age..
Ephesians 3:3–6 Colossians 1:26–27

Peter needed to catch up concerning Paul.

++++Peter needed to catch up concerning Paul.
Correct

Gal 1
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles
1 Tim 1
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Acts 25
11.... we shall be saved, even as they.

Christ taught Paul the Gospel which then Christ by revelation sent Paul to Peter to explain it to Peter

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

Fine....

You and I will stand before Him alone to give account for only for ourselves.

If you truly believe that there are many good teachers today that are able to bring believers to full maturity in Christ?
Not just through the baby stage?

Go for it.

Genez, whether I personally think there are many or few good teachers today is not the issue.

I am not claiming there are many.

I am saying that 2 Timothy 4:3 does not tell us how many sound teachers exist. It tells us that people who reject sound doctrine will gather a great number of teachers who satisfy their desires.

Those are different claims.

And I would also be careful with the idea that a teacher “brings believers to full maturity in Christ.”

Ephesians 4 says gifted ministers equip the saints, but the growth toward maturity involves the whole body functioning together under Christ.

So yes, teachers matter greatly.

But I still don't see Scripture establishing this chain:

many bad teachers → only a few true teachers → those few are the necessary route to full spiritual maturity.

If that chain is biblical, show me where the text actually establishes each step.

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

Take note how 2 Timothy 4:3 is rendered in the Amplified Version.

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine and accurate instruction ​

[that challenges them with God’s truth]; but wanting to have their ears tickled [with something ​

pleasing], they will accumulate for themselves [many] teachers [one after another, chosen] to ​

satisfy their own desires and to support the errors they hold.​

(Amplified Bible)

Genez, I agree that 2 Timothy 4:3 warns that people will reject sound doctrine and accumulate teachers who tell them what they want to hear.

But the Amplified still does not establish that only a very small number of sound teachers exist.

And that distinction matters if “very few sound teachers” is going to become part of a larger argument about how believers reach maturity.

So let me keep the question narrow:

Where does Scripture establish that only a few sound teachers are available, and that believers must find one of those few in order to progress beyond the baby stage into full maturity in Christ?

If that is the biblical structure, show me the passages that establish it.

 

[GeneZ]

Genez, whether I personally think there are many or few good teachers today is not the issue.

I am not claiming there are many.

I am saying that 2 Timothy 4:3 does not tell us how many sound teachers exist. It tells us that people who reject sound doctrine will gather a great number of teachers who satisfy their desires.

Those are different claims.

And I would also be careful with the idea that a teacher “brings believers to full maturity in Christ.”

Ephesians 4 says gifted ministers equip the saints, but the growth toward maturity involves the whole body functioning together under Christ.

So yes, teachers matter greatly.

But I still don't see Scripture establishing this chain:

many bad teachers → only a few true teachers → those few are the necessary route to full spiritual maturity.

If that chain is biblical, show me where the text actually establishes each step.

Though saved. We are coming from two different places.

 

[GeneZ]

Genez, I agree that 2 Timothy 4:3 warns that people will reject sound doctrine and accumulate teachers who tell them what they want to hear.

But the Amplified still does not establish that only a very small number of sound teachers exist.

And that distinction matters if “very few sound teachers” is going to become part of a larger argument about how believers reach maturity.

So let me keep the question narrow:

Where does Scripture establish that only a few sound teachers are available, and that believers must find one of those few in order to progress beyond the baby stage into full maturity in Christ?

If that is the biblical structure, show me the passages that establish it.

Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming,
so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:18​

Bad teachers = antichrists = many.

Nice people many of them. They will use the Bible to make their point.
But they do not know what is needed to mature spiritually in Christ.

Yet, a 2 Timothy 4:3 tells us?
They will be people pleasers.

 

[Spiritual Freedom]

Though saved. We are coming from two different places.

I agree. We may be coming from two different places doctrinally, while both being saved.

That is exactly why I want to keep coming back to the text itself.

Neither your theological system nor mine should get to supply a missing step and then treat that step as Scripture.

If Scripture establishes:

many bad teachers → very few sound teachers → believers must find one of those few to reach full maturity in Christ,

then I want to see it and accept it.

But if Scripture does not establish that chain, then neither of us should add it.

And I don't think believers coming from different doctrinal places is unusual.

Philippians 3:15–16 is especially interesting here because Paul is speaking about maturity and still says that if believers “think otherwise” about something, God can make that clear to them, while they continue walking according to what they have already attained. Mature believers are not presented as necessarily possessing an identical doctrinal package.

Romans 14:2–6 makes the same point from another angle. Believers can reach different conclusions about food and days, and Paul does not tell one side that spiritual maturity requires duplicating the other side's conclusion. He tells each to be fully persuaded in his own mind and to act unto the Lord.

1 Corinthians 8:7–13 likewise shows believers possessing different levels of knowledge and different consciences, while still belonging to Christ.

And 1 Corinthians 12:4–27 describes one body with different gifts, ministries and functions. The unity of the body does not require every member to be identical.

So our different starting points don't bother me.

The question is whether we are both willing to let Scripture correct those starting points, wherever the text leads.