The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[sondring7]

Yes, and before it. If it's possible to lose salvation, it can happen during or before the trib. The trib is likely the most dangerous period of time for that but certainly not the only.

++++Yes, and before it.
Quoting Jesus VIA Paul,
Please the verses that clearly teach a saved, HS sealed, forgiven believer can become UNsaved, UNsealed, UNforgiven

 

[ewq1938]

++++Yes, and before it.
Quoting Jesus VIA Paul,
Please the verses that clearly teach a saved, HS sealed, forgiven believer can become UNsaved, UNsealed, UNforgiven

Unforgivable sin, Apostasy, Mark of the beast? You can look up the various verses.

 

[sondring7]

Unforgivable sin, Apostasy, Mark of the beast? You can look up the various verses.

The request was for verses please.
Can you supply them ?
Quoting Jesus VIA Paul,
Please the verses that clearly teach a saved, HS sealed, forgiven believer can become UNsaved, UNsealed, UNforgiven

 

[ewq1938]

The request was for verses please.

You can find them. I supplied the various sins that might cause the loss of salvation.

 

[sondring7]

You can find them. I supplied the various sins that might cause the loss of salvation.

I'm unable to find ANY verses from Jesus VIA Paul that teaches a 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Col 2:13 saved, HS sealed, forgiven believer can become UNsaved, UNsealed, UNforgiven.
That's why I have asked you POLITELY to supply any that you know of.

Can you do that ?

 

[Sel@h]

++++The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins. This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist

Do you agree that believers in the TRIBULATION can lose their salvation ?

Yes. If a Christian is deceived by the Antichrist, who comes before Jesus Christ, they will end up worshiping him. This is the great apostasy of the end times. Remember, the AC returns at the 6th trump. JESUS returns at the 7th trump.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Sel@h]

How do you see the son of perdition being revealed?

I’ve had some folks tell me that they will watch and listen to this person then compare that to the scriptures and that’s how he will be revealed and how they will know who he is. It seems kinda strange to use the Antichrist’s words and actions to interpret scripture but that’s what it seems some people are going to do.

What are your thoughts on this? How can we know when scripture gets fulfilled?

Well, we need to know:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The first man who says he’s Jesus is a fake. Remember, Satan comes at the 6th trump. JESUS comes at the 7th trump.

 

[Sel@h]

@grafted branch

And another way you can keep from being deceived: Ready? Okay. When the first dude who says he’s Jesus appears, real quick, pinch yourself. If you feel physical pain, that dude is a fake—he is the
antichrist. Remember that when the true JESUS returns, we will all be changed into spiritual bodies where we will not feel a pinch.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

 

[grafted branch]

And another way you can keep from being deceived: Ready? Okay. When the first dude who says he’s Jesus appears, real quick, pinch yourself. If you feel physical pain, that dude is a fake—he is the
antichrist. Remember that when the true JESUS returns, we will all be changed into spiritual bodies where we will not feel a pinch.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

What if a person calls himself Jesus and we pinch ourselves and we know he’s fake and that he’s the Antichrist. Then that person claims all those who are physically beheaded will live and reign in the coming millennium. He then sets up medical clinics where believers can go, publish their faith on a government website, get anesthetized, and have their head removed. Something that several churches decide their entire congregation will do at the same time.

No one wants to be deceived but what if that guy really isn’t the Antichrist, just someone who wants to get rid of Christians? The pinch test wouldn’t work under that scenario.

 

[Randy Kluth]

++++The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins. This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist

Do you agree that believers in the TRIBULATION can lose their salvation ?

It depends on how we define "believers." I believe people can believe and become "Christians" without actually becoming Born Again. Certainly, "Christians" who do not become Born Again can lose their faith. It is, in other words, sort of a semantics issue and should not detract from Postrib Eschatology.

 

[Sel@h]

What if a person calls himself Jesus and we pinch ourselves and we know he’s fake and that he’s the Antichrist. Then that person claims all those who are physically beheaded will live and reign in the coming millennium. He then sets up medical clinics where believers can go, publish their faith on a government website, get anesthetized, and have their head removed. Something that several churches decide their entire congregation will do at the same time.

No one wants to be deceived but what if that guy really isn’t the Antichrist, just someone who wants to get rid of Christians? The pinch test wouldn’t work under that scenario.

Christians know that Satan is a liar. Don’t fall for any of his and his fallen angels’ lies. Believe me, there will be a flood of lies and deception coming out of their mouths. Make sure you’ve got that Gospel armor strapped good and tight so none of their fiery darts can get through. That’s what the Gospel armor is for. I plan to stomp on them any way I can.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It’s getting close; the latter days are already here. Let’s not be deceived.

The gathering of believers to Christ will only occur after the Antichrist has reigned.

The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins. This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist. However, this idea lacks biblical support and suggests a cowardice inconsistent with the faith of those who have died defending the truth. Our protection comes from God, our Rock, not from physical hiding places like caves in Petra.

Scripture is clear that the return of Christ happens at the last trump, after the "man of sin" is revealed. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul explicitly warns believers not to be deceived: the Day of Christ cannot come until there is a great falling away and the son of perdition is revealed. This false messiah will exalt himself and sit in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

While some theorists claim that the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit being removed during a Rapture, this is very poor scholarship. The context makes it clear that the restrainer is holding back Satan, not the church. In reality, the Archangel Michael is the one restraining Satan in heaven.

Satan’s spirit is active on earth, but he himself is not yet here in person. He will be cast out by Michael and his angels, arriving on earth first to reign as the false christ. Only after this event will the gathering to Christ occur. Do not be deceived by theories; rely solely on the Word of God.

Remember, Jesus Christ IS NOT returning until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs AFTER Satan, the son of perdition (meaning the son who will perish), is revealed.

What a nasty position.
Calling us cowards that agree with Jesus.

Please post your one postrib verse.
Teach me your superior position.
Do you have one verse?

BTW, The ac will be revealed in the near future.
He will be revealed and then thevrapture could happen immediately.
You guys will watch the soles of our feet going up and probably say " those horrible cowards"

 

[rebuilder 454]

Christians know that Satan is a liar. Don’t fall for any of his and his fallen angels’ lies. Believe me, there will be a flood of lies and deception coming out of their mouths. Make sure you’ve got that Gospel armor strapped good and tight so none of their fiery darts can get through. That’s what the Gospel armor is for. I plan to stomp on them any way I can.

The Bible says power is given the AC to kill believers.
The Bible says all take the mark, that are not in the book.
Your doctrine falls apart.
No believers " make it through the trib"
Look at where Jesus places the rapture
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Your model has the opposite setting

100% opposite setting.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I’m not sure what you’re saying regarding Acts 1. There are only two advents of our Lord Jesus Christ—the first, when he came as a babe in Bethlehem, the second when He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Here is an adventure that is neither of your 2 ecamples.
Rev14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Ahem....during the trib.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm just holding a mirror up to your views on this regarding the white horse. It doesn't matter that he left alone but comes with horses or people etc. The return is not supposed to be an exact copy of of the ascension.

DUDE!!!!! You'r not getting it....JESUS DIDN'T LEAVE ON A WHITE HORSE LIKE HE RETURNS IN REV 19. PERIOD.

 

[rebuilder 454]

DUDE!!!!! You'r not getting it....JESUS DIDN'T LEAVE ON A WHITE HORSE LIKE HE RETURNS IN REV 19. PERIOD.

Yep.
No horses
No sword
No conquering king
No mass tribulation with an AC demanding a mark in their heads.
No warrior saints.

Exactly opposite the postribbers model.

 

[Davidpt]

Yep.
No horses
No sword
No conquering king
No mass tribulation with an AC demanding a mark in their heads.
No warrior saints.

Exactly opposite the postribbers model.

It is absurd beyond belief that the last trump per 1 Cor 15 is meaning pretrib rather than post trib. The dead in Christ that rise first can't do that unless they are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. That passage says death is swallowed up in victory for believers(thus the saved). And if meaning pretrib, pretrib has some of the ones left behind becoming believers, thus becoming saved. Then some of these same ones being killed. Which then contradicts that death is swallowed up in victory for believers if that already took place pretrib rather than post trib.


If Pretribbers instead agree that the last trump is meaning post trib rather than pretrib, that means they have the dead in Christ that rise first rising in mortal bodies not immortals bodies. No matter how you look at it, pretrib contradicts something major. But why would it be contradicting anything major if it's the correct position?

 

[Davidpt]

DUDE!!!!! You'r not getting it....JESUS DIDN'T LEAVE ON A WHITE HORSE LIKE HE RETURNS IN REV 19. PERIOD.

At least Pretribbers, such as you, have some things in common with most Amil posttribbers. They too agree the Acts 1 return is meaning the 1 Thessalonians 4 rapture. They too agree the Acts 1 return has zero to do with Zechariah 14:4. While OTOH, most Premil posttribbers, if not all, agree with the texts instead. That in like manner includes Him returning to the very spot He exited from. IOW, it is not a coincidence that Acts 1, in light of Luke 24, has Him leaving the earth from the mount of Olives, and that Zechariah 14:4 has Him returning to the earth on the mount of Olives.

 

[Taken]

The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins.

Yes. The Church, They Converted IN Christ.

This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety,

No. A “believer” Does NOT mean Converted IN Christ, the Church.

avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist. However, this idea lacks biblical support and

The converted IN Christ ARE Escaped / Delivered From Heavenly Wrath and Tribulations.

suggests a cowardice inconsistent with the faith of those who have died defending the truth.

Being Separated WITH Christ suggests to you that is a “cowardly position to be accounted standing”?

Scripture is clear that the return of Christ happens at the last trump, after the "man of sin" is revealed.

Scripture is Clear. The Church rises up to meet the Lord in the clouds …
And thereafter where-ever the Lord is so ALSO are they.
The lord returns to Earth… His Church / Bride is With Him.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul explicitly warns believers not to be deceived:

A warning to “believers.”
That is not the Converted IN Christ.

. In reality, the Archangel Michael is the one restraining Satan in heaven.

? Satan in Heaven?

Satan’s spirit is active on earth, but he himself is not yet here in person.

?

 

[Davidpt]

Yes. The Church, They Converted IN Christ.

No. A “believer” Does NOT mean Converted IN Christ, the Church.

The converted IN Christ ARE Escaped / Delivered From Heavenly Wrath and Tribulations.

Being Separated WITH Christ suggests to you that is a “cowardly position to be accounted standing”?

Scripture is Clear. The Church rises up to meet the Lord in the clouds …
And thereafter where-ever the Lord is so ALSO are they.
The lord returns to Earth… His Church / Bride is With Him.

A warning to “believers.”
That is not the Converted IN Christ.



? Satan in Heaven?

?

Look at the way Pretribbers reason things. They don't even bother clearing up any perceived contradictions first. Such as I brought up per my last 2 posts. Just ignore any perceived contradictions and argue from a different angle instead. That's backwards. Clear up any perceived contradictions first, then argue in the manner you are afterwards.