1. The Grammatical Flaw: Third-Person Plural is Required by the Metaphor
The argument states Paul should have said "those of 'us' who have fallen asleep" if he meant the corporate church.
• The Hole: In Greek (and English), the phrase "those who have fallen asleep" (hoi koimēthentes) is a participle acting as a noun phrase. It is grammatically impossible for this phrase to be in the first person ("us").
I don’t understand the argument the AI is making here. Can you elaborate?
Is it arguing that it’s grammatically impossible in Greek to say “we who have fallen asleep” or “those of us who have fallen asleep”? Because that would be incorrect.
Or is it simply arguing that the phrase “those who have fallen asleep” is grammatically third person and can’t be first person? If so, no duh lol. Nobody is arguing that this phrase, as Paul wrote it, should or could be interpreted as first person.
The actual argument is that Paul contrasts the third-person reference to “those who have fallen asleep” with the first-person reference to “we who are alive and remain.”
And remember, Paul distinguishes between two groups. “Those who have fallen asleep” does not refer to the entire church, but specifically to believers who have died. Likewise, “we who are alive and remain” does not refer to the entire church, but specifically to the subset of believers who remain alive until the coming of the Lord.
Therefore, simply arguing that Paul uses “we” corporately does not resolve the issue. The question is not whether Paul is speaking about a group of believers, but which group he identifies himself with.
Paul does not use “we” to refer indiscriminately to the church throughout history. He qualifies “we” with “who are alive and remain,” restricting the reference to a particular subset of the church. The corporate interpretation must therefore explain why Paul identifies himself with this specific group rather than referring to them as “those who are alive and remain.” especially when he has created divisions for his argument.
2. Paul’s Regular Use of the "Corporate We"
The Preterist argues that a corporate "we" is unlikely here because of the contrast. However, Paul routinely uses "we" to describe the entire body of believers across all time, contrasting them with other groups.
• The Hole: Look at 1 Corinthians 15:51–52, a parallel passage on the resurrection. Paul writes: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
• The Contradiction: Paul died. He did not remain alive to be changed without sleeping. This proves that Paul used "we" to mean "we believers who happen to be alive at that future moment," placing himself rhetorically in the shoes of the final generation, rather than making a strict chronological prediction about his own lifespan.
Other contexts in different letters do not necessarily determine how Paul is using “we” in 1 Thessalonians. AI should know that.
Additionally, retrospect or “hindsight bias” does not disprove what Paul believed when he wrote 1 Thessalonians.
3. The "We" Shifts Elsewhere in Paul’s Letters
If "we" always strictly means Paul and his immediate 1st-century audience, then Paul contradicts himself in other letters.
• The Hole: In 2 Corinthians 4:14, Paul writes: "...knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you."
• The Reality: Here, Paul groups himself with those who will be raised from the dead, not those who remain alive. If "we" in 1 Thessalonians 4 strictly locks him into the "living until 70 AD" camp, then 2 Corinthians 4 locks him into the "dead before the resurrection" camp. The simplest explanation is that Paul used "we" flexibly to represent the Christian community as a whole.
Other contexts in different letters do not necessarily determine how Paul is using “we” in 1 Thessalonians. AI should know that.
The Preterist is manufacturing a rigid grammatical rule that doesn't exist in ancient Greek or modern English. The contrast between "we who are alive" and "those who have fallen asleep" is simply the only logical way to contrast the living and the dead. It does nothing to diminish the "corporate church" interpretation.
Here is google’s AI response to my question “in general, did Paul believe Jesus would return in his lifetime?”
“Yes, a strong consensus among historical-critical biblical scholars concludes that Paul originally believed Jesus would return during his lifetime. However, his perspective appears to have evolved as he aged and faced the immediate threat of execution.
The evidence for this shift is typically tracked chronologically through his letters:
1. The Early Letters: Expecting an Imminent Return
In his earliest correspondence, Paul consistently includes himself in the generation that will live to see the
Parousia (the Second Coming).
- 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (c. 50 CE): Paul writes, "We who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep." His use of "we" strongly indicates he expected to be among the living.
- 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 (c. 53–54 CE): He states, "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,"implying that many in his audience—and likely himself—would bypass physical death entirely.
- 1 Corinthians 7:29: He explicitly warns that "the time has grown short," using this imminent expectation to advise believers against making long-term earthly commitments like marriage.
2. The Later Letters: Grappling with Mortality
As the years progressed, Paul was imprisoned multiple times and faced the stark reality that he might die before Christ's return. His language shifted from expecting survival to preparing for death.
- Philippians 1:21–23 (c. 54–62 CE): Writing from prison, Paul contemplates his own execution, stating he has a "desire to depart and be with Christ," recognizing that his death may precede the final resurrection.
- 2 Corinthians 5:1: He discusses the destruction of his "earthly tent" (his physical body), showing a developing theological framework for what happens to believers who die before the Second Coming.
Summary of Scholarly Views
While some traditional or theological interpretations argue that Paul's use of "we" was merely a rhetorical device to keep every generation of the Church alert,
most historians view Paul as an apocalyptic Pharisee who quite literally believed the world was ending in the 1st century. When Jesus did not return immediately, Paul and the early Church adapted their theology to account for the deaths of the founding apostles.”
