Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

[Grailhunter]

If you are referring to verse 30: All tribes of the earth (which can be translated as land) refers to all the tribes of the land of Israel. The proof is in Zechariah 12:10-14.

No proof.
All the tribes of the earth means everywhere and everyone. The events of Revelation does not just happen to the Jews.

 

[David in NJ]

I know this is a controversial matter. I know that many here are now going to call it pathetic, but honestly after I read the New Testament - and am simply objective - it is like the New Testament wants to tell me that Jesus returned around 70 AD. That the Beast was Rome and Babylon was Jerusalem. But somehow this is also confusing.

Did Jesus return in 70AD???
Yes???
No???

We can know with absolute irrevocable evidence from God's own words!!!

Would you like to know so that you are never confused on this???

 

[SeekTruth]

No proof.
All the tribes of the earth means everywhere and everyone. The events of Revelation does not just happen to the Jews.

You are wrong. Zechariah 12:10-14 proves it. Matthew 24 says "All tribes of the land will mourn." Israel mourned when she saw Jesus on the clouds. "Isnt this the man I killed 40 years ago?" All tribes of Israel were there in Jerusalem in 30 AD when they crucified Jesus, and all tribes of Israel saw Jesus when he returned. In 30 AD Jerusalem forced the Romans to kill Jesus, in 70 AD Jesus forced the Romans to destroy Jerusalem.

 

[Grailhunter]

You are wrong. Zechariah 12:10-14 proves it. Matthew 24 says "All tribes of the land will mourn." Israel mourned when she saw Jesus on the clouds. "Isnt this the man I killed 40 years ago?" All tribes of Israel were there in Jerusalem in 30 AD when they crucified Jesus, and all tribes of Israel saw Jesus when he returned. In 30 AD Jerusalem forced the Romans to kill Jesus, in 70 AD Jesus forced the Romans to destroy Jerusalem.

LOL You so funny.....
You think the events of Revelation is only going to affect the Jews?
What are the Christians going to do?
This is why I do not debate Revelation. I have heard it all in college, some bad, some good, some weird.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL You so funny.....
You think the events of Revelation is only going to affect the Jews?
What are the Christians going to do?
This is why I do not debate Revelation. I have heard it all in college, some bad, some good, some weird.

True. Both Preterists and Premillennialists tend to keep prophecy centered on ethnic Israel—whether they place its fulfillment in the first century or in the future, when Premillennialists expect the Church to be raptured out of the way first so that God can deal with Jews again. The irony is that both approaches miss the bigger picture of how Revelation concerns Christ, His Church, and the spiritual conflict between His kingdom and the forces of Satan throughout this present age.

Sad!

 

[JimKnox]

True. Both Preterists and Premillennialists tend to keep prophecy centered on ethnic Israel—whether they place its fulfillment in the first century or in the future, when Premillennialists expect the Church to be raptured out of the way first so that God can deal with Jews again. The irony is that both approaches miss the bigger picture of how Revelation concerns Christ, His Church, and the spiritual conflict between His kingdom and the forces of Satan throughout this present age.

Sad!

Naw.
The irony is amillennialists and post tribulationist miss the picture altogether while self righteously pretending God spoke to them while keeping pretribbers still deceived by Satan.
They seem to think EVERYTHING is "sper-chull"!!!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Naw.
The irony is amillennialists and post tribulationist miss the picture altogether while self righteously pretending God spoke to them while keeping pretribbers still deceived by Satan.
They seem to think EVERYTHING is "sper-chull"!!!

LOL! You accuse amillennialists of missing the picture, but instead of explaining how Revelation supports your position, you resort to claiming that others are deceived by Satan. That's quite an argument!

And the “everything is spiritual” objection? Amillennialism does not mean everything is imaginary or that nothing happens in the physical world. It means recognizing that biblical prophecy often uses symbolic imagery to communicate real spiritual and historical realities. Revelation itself is full of signs and symbols (Revelation 1:1).

The real question is not whether prophecy contains spiritual realities. The question is whether we interpret those symbols according to Scripture or impose a literalistic framework on imagery that the text itself presents symbolically.

So, let's get specific: Where does Revelation explicitly teach that Christ must remove His Church from the earth before God can resume His dealings with ethnic Israel? And where does it explicitly teach that Christ will reign on earth for a literal thousand years in the manner Premillennialism claims?

Don't just tell me that Amillennialists are deceived. Show me from the text where the interpretation is wrong. Scripture, not accusations about Satan, should settle the argument.

 

[sondring7]

During the War of Destruction between 66 and 70 AD.

Matt 24:21 "no, nor ever shall be"

Nearly 100 million killed in WW2
Approx 1 million killed in 66-70 AD

So which was the greater destruction/loss of human life ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matt 24:21 "no, nor ever shall be"

Nearly 100 million killed in WW2
Approx 1 million killed in 66-70 AD

So which was the greater destruction/loss of human life ?

I will add something that proves your position:

HISTORICAL DEATH TOLLS: WAS AD 70 THE GREATEST TRIBULATION IN HUMAN HISTORY?

Jesus said in Matthew 24:21 (KJV):

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

For those people who believe the great tribulation occured in 70AD need to consider some few historical death tolls:

WARS AND REBELLIONS

• World War I: approximately 15–22 million deaths.
• Taiping Rebellion in China: approximately 20–30 million deaths.
• World War II: approximately 70–85 million deaths.

FAMINES

• Bengal famine of 1943–1944: approximately 1.5–3.5 million deaths.
• Great Chinese Famine of 1959–1961: approximately 16.5–30 million deaths.
• Global famine crisis of 1876–1878: some estimates exceed 50 million deaths.

PANDEMICS

• Black Death in Europe: approximately 25–50 million deaths.
• 1918 influenza pandemic: estimates range widely, from about 17 million to 50 million deaths.

NOW COMPARE THESE FIGURES WITH AD 70.

Josephus claimed that 1.1 million people died during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. However, modern historians dispute that figure, and it should not be treated as a confirmed death toll.

The historical record shows that humanity has endured catastrophes claiming tens of millions of lives through war, famine, and disease.

So here is the question for those who insist that Matthew 24:21 was completely fulfilled in AD 70:

How does the destruction of Jerusalem explain Jesus' statement that the tribulation would be unlike anything since the beginning of the world, and unlike anything that would ever occur again?

Jerusalem's destruction was devastating. But we must examine whether that event fulfills the full scope of Jesus' prophecy rather than simply assuming that it does.

The question is not whether AD 70 was terrible. The question is whether it fulfills the entire prophecy in its context.

Selah!

 

[Truth7t7]

Naw.
The irony is amillennialists and post tribulationist miss the picture altogether while self righteously pretending God spoke to them while keeping pretribbers still deceived by Satan.
They seem to think EVERYTHING is "sper-chull"!!!

The fact is the 2 pillars of scripture that Pre-Trib uses in their claim of a Pre-Trib rapture is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The scripture below used by pre-tribbers is nothing more than the Lord's "Second Coming" and "The Last Day" resurrection (The End)

Conclusion: Pre-Trib claims that the scripture below supports a pre-trib rapture is 100% "False"

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[sondring7]

The fact is the 2 pillars of scripture that Pre-Trib uses in their claim of a Pre-Trib rapture is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The scripture below used by pre-tribbers is nothing more than the Lord's "Second Coming" and "The Last Day" resurrection (The End)

Conclusion: Pre-Trib claims that the scripture below supports a pre-trib rapture is 100% "False"

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

++Conclusion: Pre-Trib claims that the scripture below supports a pre-trib rapture is 100% "False"
Not everyone agrees with your conclusion

 

[ewq1938]

The fact is the 2 pillars of scripture that Pre-Trib uses in their claim of a Pre-Trib rapture is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The scripture below used by pre-tribbers is nothing more than the Lord's "Second Coming" and "The Last Day" resurrection (The End)

Conclusion: Pre-Trib claims that the scripture below supports a pre-trib rapture is 100% "False"

Yes.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

These events happen BEFORE the rapture...all happening post-trib

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And here we have the post-trib resurrection and then the rapture.

 

[sondring7]

Yes.




These events happen BEFORE the rapture...all happening post-trib



And here we have the post-trib resurrection and then the rapture.

1 Cor 15:51-52 happens in a TWINKLE & not the GATHERING process in Matt 24:31
1 Thess 4:16-17 angels not mentioned by Paul as in the GATHERING of Matt 24:31

Pre-trib wins again :)

 

[grafted branch]

Not surprising. You’re still assuming you know what Christ was talking about without first discerning the spiritual meaning of His words.

Christ specifically said, “Whoso readeth, let him understand” (Matthew 24:15). Notice that He didn’t say, “Whoso readeth, let him simply assume he already knows what I am talking about - you know the one with physical stones of the temple.”

Before declaring that Michael stood up at the Cross, shouldn’t you first establish which temple Christ was referring to and what the abomination of desolation actually represents? If you begin with the wrong understanding of the temple, you will inevitably arrive at the wrong conclusion about the prophecy.

You cannot properly understand the timing of Michael standing up until you first understand what Christ was revealing as my post shows. Read, discern, and then conclude. Selah.

Here’s the issue, you spiritualize everything to an extreme, to the point that you don’t accept the literal interpretation because you have the spiritual meaning canceling out the literal meaning. That means you don’t have the correct spiritual meaning.

In this interpretation, the command to flee has a spiritual application. When God's people are given understanding to recognize the abomination, they must respond by separating themselves from the fallen church. This is not about Jews fleeing physical Judaea here!

In the post above you admit your spiritual interpretation cancels out a literal interpretation. What if we used this same method of interpretation to apply a spiritual meaning to fornication that cancels out the literal meaning? See the problem of interpreting scripture that way?

We don’t interpret scripture with scripture when it comes to fulfillment, scripture with scripture is for doctrine. When it comes to fulfillment we are to use the example given in Matthew 11:3. Here John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one that should come or if they should look for another. In vs 4 Jesus says to show John again the things you hear and see.

Physically seeing and hearing is how we determine when something gets fulfilled. Those that saw and heard Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, used the Biblical method of determining fulfillment, and fled, were saved from that tribulation. Whatever spiritual meaning there might be doesn’t cancel out the literal event.

 

[ewq1938]

1 Cor 15:51-52 happens in a TWINKLE & not the GATHERING process in Matt 24:31

The resurrection and rapture are two different events.

1 Thess 4:16-17 angels not mentioned by Paul as in the GATHERING of Matt 24:31

An angel is mentioned but no two passages have to be identical.

Pre-trib wins again :)

It never wins because it is unscriptural.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Here’s the issue, you spiritualize everything to an extreme, to the point that you don’t accept the literal interpretation because you have the spiritual meaning canceling out the literal meaning. That means you don’t have the correct spiritual meaning.

Calling my interpretation “extreme spiritualizing” does not establish that yours is correct. You still need to demonstrate from Scripture where my interpretation fails.

When Jesus spoke of His body as a temple, His listeners, like you, assumed He meant the physical building (John 2:19–21). Their literal understanding missed His meaning. Likewise, believers are called God’s temple and “living stones” (1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Peter 2:5). Recognizing biblical symbolism does not cancel reality; it identifies what the imagery represents.

Those passages do not automatically settle Matthew 24, but neither does pointing to a physical temple settle every aspect of the prophecy. That is precisely what we need to examine.

So please address the actual argument: Why must the temple and its desolation mean only what you assume, and how does that establish that Michael stood up at the Cross? Labeling my interpretation is no substitute for answering it from Scripture.

Selah.

In the post above you admit your spiritual interpretation cancels out a literal interpretation. What if we used this same method of interpretation to apply a spiritual meaning to fornication that cancels out the literal meaning? See the problem of interpreting scripture that way?

We don’t interpret scripture with scripture when it comes to fulfillment, scripture with scripture is for doctrine. When it comes to fulfillment we are to use the example given in Matthew 11:3. Here John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one that should come or if they should look for another. In vs 4 Jesus says to show John again the things you hear and see.

Physically seeing and hearing is how we determine when something gets fulfilled. Those that saw and heard Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, used the Biblical method of determining fulfillment, and fled, were saved from that tribulation. Whatever spiritual meaning there might be doesn’t cancel out the literal event.

Your fornication analogy does not establish what “flee” means in this prophecy. Scripture condemns physical fornication, but it also uses adultery to describe covenant unfaithfulness (Jeremiah 3:8–9). The context determines the meaning. You cannot impose a literal interpretation on every prophetic expression simply because other passages describe "physical acts."

And where does Scripture teach your rule that “Scripture interprets Scripture only for doctrine, never fulfillment”? Jesus explained His suffering and resurrection through Moses and the prophets (Luke 24:25–27, 44–46). Peter explained Pentecost through Joel’s prophecy (Acts 2:16–21). Those are interpretations of fulfillment through Scripture. Hello?

Matthew 11:4–5 does not establish physical observation as the exclusive test. Jesus pointed to works that corresponded to the prophetic descriptions in Isaiah 35:5–6 and 61:1. What they saw and heard had to be understood in light of what God had written. Observation alone did not tell them who Jesus was. Do you realize that MANY also witnessed His works yet still rejected Him! Your point is?!

Luke 21:20–21 explicitly mentions Jerusalem surrounded by armies. That deserves careful consideration, but it does not automatically establish your interpretation of every detail in Matthew 24 or the timing of Michael standing up in Daniel 12.

My position is that the flight has a spiritual application to separation from an apostate congregation. You may challenge that interpretation, but you must address its scriptural basis. Your analogy and your unsupported rule about fulfillment do not refute it. Show where the interpretation fails in the text.

Selah.