Mary the Queen of Heaven?

[BreadOfLife]

I COULD have replied to the great majority of your claims, off the top of my head; but, when I prayed for wisdom, the Lord instead led me to address the underlying reason why this would be a waste of time. Without humility and openness to the truth, I would just be casting pearls before swine.

Translation:
"I have NO way of refuting the truth you presented."

That's pretty much what I thought . . .

 

[Fathom]

This is now your second time accusing the Holy Spirit of evil.

For with stammering lips/gibberish and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.

Isaiah was right—God communicated in unfamiliar languages, and to His people it sounded like stammered speech, so they had to interpret His word to understand His law.
So the message from our Lord now reads: Do this, do that; a rule for this, a rule for that—here a bit, there a bit.

Are you reciting your prayers in Hebrew?
Can you write down your gibberish and translate it?

 

[Fathom]

The gospel was first declared in Gen. 3:15. It has since been declared, in various ways, throughout the O.T.; then, in clearer form, it was declared by the Lord Jesus Christ and his earliest disciples.

We now have the God-breathed, inerrant and sufficient declaration of the gospel, in the Holy Bible.

So now you can be rebellious against the Catholic Church and condemn them?

 

[Fathom]

He may have an opinion that tongues are no longer valid or gibberish, but he cannot produce scriptures to that effect.
It kinda depends on where you get your beliefs, the scriptures or some dud behind a podium.
You cannot produce scriptures that tongues are no longer valid or gibberish, and he cannot produce scriptures to that effect.
On the other hand I have produced scriptures from Yeshua and the Apostles. You were beat before you started, because you knew that you cannot produce scriptures for what you believe.

Can English be considered a new language?

 

[Grailhunter]

Can English be considered a new language?

Clarify.

 

[David in NJ]

Isaiah was right—God communicated in unfamiliar languages, and to His people it sounded like stammered speech, so they had to interpret His word to understand His law.
So the message from our Lord now reads: Do this, do that; a rule for this, a rule for that—here a bit, there a bit.

Are you reciting your prayers in Hebrew?
Can you write down your gibberish and translate it?

You did not understand the Prophecy in Isaiah and how God fulfills it to this present day in those who know Him.

 

[David1701]

Translation:
"I have NO way of refuting the truth you presented."

That's pretty much what I thought . . .

Try reading your own posts, as if you were a neutral observer. Note the constant use of bold type, italics, underlining and coloured fonts, which indicate the equivalent of the boardroom bully, who tries to intimidate his colleagues into accepting his opinions, by shouting and pounding the table with his fists. Such a person is not open to facts and reason, but only wants to impose his views upon others.

 

[David1701]

So now you can be rebellious against the Catholic Church and condemn them?

What???

I cannot rebel against Roman Catholicism, since it has no authority over me (or anyone, other than those unwise enough to place themselves under its control).

Roman Catholicism stands self-condemned, since it opposes God's word (and his people), in so many ways, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

This is a complete LIE.

As a lifelong Catholic - I've NEVER seen an Altar to Mary.
A commemorative shrine is NOT an altar. If you knpw ANYHING about Scripture - you would know that an Altar is for offering SACRIFICE to God.

Do your homework, for cryin' out loud . . .

Uhhh - which is a GOOD thing . . .

Wow good presentation Bread!.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well, I know you're just a forum troll - but I just couldn't resis giving you a mucc-needed Bible Lesson . . .

For starters – most of the an-Catholic nonsense that Mary’s Queenship is based on pagan religions and practices by non-Catholics who have NO understanding of the history of Israel. This ridiculous notion was spread by staunch anti-Catholics like Alexander Hislop, Loraine Boettner and Jack T. Chick.

For example, Hislop’s 19th century attack on Christ’s Church, “The Two Babylons”, is an exercise in sloppy historical research, personal vendetta and false accusations. This book has been heavily-debunked, not only by informed Catholics but by educated Protestants and former Hislop devotees .

One of Hislop’s staunchest adherents, Ralph Woodrow was so obsessed with Hislop that he wrote his own book called "Babylon Mystery Religion". HOWEVER - when doing some actual research for a follow-up book, he discovered to his horror that his hero Hislop simply MADE UP all of his nonsense because of his hatred for the Catholic Church.

Woodrow quickly pulled his book from print and published a work debunking Hislop called "The Babylon Connection?"

He now runs a website APOLOGIZING for his first book and trying to make sure that people know about Hislop's garbage. Apparently - YOU and others here didn't get the memo . . .

In the Davidic Kingdom, the wife of the King was NOT the Queen – but rather, his mother was elevated to that station. The title Gebirah (Gebira), meaning “Great Lady” or “Queen Mother” was a royal title and an office which was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel - but only to those in the line of David.

Jesus Christ is the heir of David. He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to David in 2 Samuel 7:16; 23:5, and repeated to Mary in Luke 1:26-36. Mary’s son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is fitting that His mother should have the SAME role that other Davidic Queen mothers had, which is the royal office of the heavenly Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19-20 tells us: So Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him about Adonijah; the king got up to meet her and bowed before her; he then sat down on his throne; a seat was brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down on his right.

“There is one small favor I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.”

Just as with the Davidic Kingdom, Jesus is the King - and Mary is the Queen Mother.

ASKING (praying) for her prayerful intercession is what we do. It has NOTHING to do with “worship” . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Acts 27:34
"Wherefore I PRAY YOU to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you".

lol it is funny seeing someone else bring up Alexander Hislop. I agree with you, but I got some leftover Lutheran sympathies when it comes to seeing really ostentatious displays like giant statues of Mary 20+ Feet tall. I have learned some moderate reverence for the saints based on Early Church and Biblical theology. aka The Divine Counsel, Sacramental Theology, scenes from the book of Revelation like the souls under the altar crying out to God, the Great Cloud of Witnesses, or even the prayer of Faith in the book of James (What person would have a more affective prayer than someone who has become part of the Church Triumphant), and just other things like Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. As I said before you cannot really understand Holiness in the Bible without studying the exact nature of worship in the old testament, objects and people permently set apart for the service/ worship of Yahweh.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

NOBODY in Heaven is "dead", my faithless friend . . .

YES! This is really my favorite Biblical message, and technically if you really analyze it there is another thing that is also going on. The strict treatment of the dead in Protestantism actually is defacto creating two Churches, Basically two bodies because they are treated as being ontologically separate and that actually goes against scripture there is on Body of Christ. This also goes back to the dead under the altar crying out and the Great Cloud of Witnesses, or the fact Jesus a number of times even before he died on the cross actually minimized the importance of death by just calling it "sleep".

 

[Grailhunter]

Wow good presentation Bread!.

Don't be too wowed. He doing a play on words. If they have a stature and a table and people on their knees praying.....it is an altar. Not that I am condemning Marian altars.

 

[BreadOfLife]

lol it is funny seeing someone else bring up Alexander Hislop.

Yes, Hislop and Jack Chick have done more to pollute the nibds of Protestant that virtually ANY other source.

I agree with you, but I got some leftover Lutheran sympathies when it comes to seeing really ostentatious displays like giant statues of Mary 20+ Feet tall. I have learned some moderate reverence for the saints based on Early Church and Biblical theology. aka The Divine Counsel, Sacramental Theology, scenes from the book of Revelation like the souls under the altar crying out to God, the Great Cloud of Witnesses, or even the prayer of Faith in the book of James (What person would have a more affective prayer than someone who has become part of the Church Triumphant), and just other things like Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. As I said before you cannot really understand Holiness in the Bible without studying the exact nature of worship in the old testament, objects and people permently set apart for the service/ worship of Yahweh.

Make me wonder of anybody would refer to this GIGANTIC monument to some of the Protestant Father as ostentatious or idolatrous . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Don't be too wowed. He doing a play on words. If they have a stature and a table and people on their knees praying.....it is an altar. Not that I am condemning Marian altars.

View attachment 91649
View attachment 91650View attachment 91651

And once again, my dishonest friend - we don't have "Altars" to MAry.
Altars, by definition are for presenting sacrifices to GOD.

We buils Shrines of veneration to Mary and the Saints in Heaven. They are created beings and therefore not worthy of Altars and sacrifices.
I suggest you do your homework before proceeding with this false point . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Try reading your own posts, as if you were a neutral observer. Note the constant use of bold type, italics, underlining and coloured fonts, which indicate the equivalent of the boardroom bully, who tries to intimidate his colleagues into accepting his opinions, by shouting and pounding the table with his fists.

Ahh, yes – the ol’, “I don’t like your use of bolding and underlining!” nonsense.

I ALWAYS get that from people who are ill-equipped to respond to Biblical and historical truth.
Good job . . .

Such a person is not open to facts and reason, but only wants to impose his views upon others.

I gave you about a DOZEN Scripture verses that YOU were completely unable to answer.
BIBLICAL facts that YOU claim I am "not open to" . . .

How about trying to REFUTE those verses instead of running away?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, Hislop and Jack Chick have done more to pollute the nibds of Protestant that virtually ANY other source.

Make me wonder of anybody would refer to this GIGANTIC monument to some of the Protestant Father as ostentatious or idolatrous . . .
View attachment 91653

lol yes that is a good one and it does remind me of the double standard of things. Like people complaining about quoting the Church Fathers when their own theology is heavily based on the interpretation of a Magisterial Reformer.


On a different yet similar note on the Apologetics front I have been doing some work on Calvinism (Who are the most challenging of Protestants). Now lots of people have issues with them over predestination etc. but there are some really low hanging fruit on Calvin's position against Rites, and "Binding the Conscience". In a nutshell Calvin does the opposite of his claim, he binds the conscience in a negative way by being anti-rite, rather than being more permissive. And the big irony is this goes against the usual Calvinist motifs of talking about "The original audience" or context of scripture. Basically, Calvin dogmatizes the Red Letter commands of Christ that is all Christian dogma and praxis can be based on which is high reductionistic for people in the Early Church where the New Testament was being slowly written and would not be canonized till centuries later. Basically, the Early Church had to largely due the Justin Martyr / Saint Paul thing of preaching Christ through the types and shadows of the Old Testament.

 

[Grailhunter]

And once again, my dishonest friend - we don't have "Altars" to MAry.
Altars, by definition are for presenting sacrifices to GOD.

We buils Shrines of veneration to Mary and the Saints in Heaven. They are created beings and therefore not worthy of Altars and sacrifices.
I suggest you do your homework before proceeding with this false point . . .

buils?
Yes, shrines all over the world that are associated with miracles, that is a good thing.
And Marian altars in churches and Marian altars in homes, that is a good thing.'
How many more pictures of Marian altars with people kneeling in front of them with their hands folded in prayer do you want?
You need homework on how to be honest with people and yourself.

Understanding Marian Altars​

Marian altars are devotional altars dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary, used for prayer, veneration, and liturgical or domestic devotion.

What They Are​

A Marian altar is an altar specifically consecrated to Mary, the Mother of God, often featuring images, statues, or icons of her, and sometimes accompanied by saints associated with her. In Catholic tradition, these altars can be:

• Church altars: Such as the Marian Altar in the Shrine of St. Joseph in St. Louis, MO, which includes side altars for private daily Masses and devotional use
• Home altars: Smaller altars in private prayer spaces, often with Marian statues, icons, and altar cloths Etsy+1.
• Liturgical altars: Used in churches for special feasts or ongoing devotion to Mary

Historical and Religious Context​

Marian altars have deep roots in Catholic devotion. In churches, they were historically used for private Masses and devotional prayer by parishioners. They often feature symbolic elements:

• Top section: Angels (faith, Queen of Heaven and Earth) and saints like St. Cecilia and St. Agnes
• Center: The Blessed Virgin Mary with the Child Jesus
• Bottom section: Saints such as St. Justus of Beauvais

In the broader Catholic tradition, Marian altars are linked to Lady chapels—side chapels in cathedrals dedicated to Mary —and to devotional practices like the Rosary, Marian feasts, and acts of reparation

Examples and Sources​

• Shrine of St. Joseph, St. Louis, MO: Features a detailed Marian Altar with saints and symbolic imagery
• King Richards: Offers antique Marian side altars made of plaster or wood, often matching reredos and other altar pieces
• Etsy: Sells Marian altar cloths, lace trims, statues, and decorative items for home altars.

How to Use or Obtain One​

• In a church: Marian altars are often part of the church’s liturgical layout or devotional areas.
• At home: You can create a Marian altar with a statue or icon of Mary, an altar cloth, candles, and personal devotional items
• Purchase: Antique or new altars are available from religious suppliers, artisans, and online marketplaces

In short: Marian altars are a tangible expression of devotion to Mary, blending art, liturgy, and personal prayer, and they can be found in both sacred and domestic settings.

 

[bdavidc]

I demonstrate why Mary is essential, and I use that identical logic to claim your god is an abomination.

I’m not here to teach or guide you; I’m here to defend the Catholic Church, using the works of the early Church Fathers. If you want a deeper understanding, go read what the early Church Fathers wrote.

You have made it clear that you are here to defend the Catholic Church, even if that means appealing to the writings of men rather than the Word of God.

But why should I accept the writings of the early Church Fathers as authority? No one should do that.

Were their writings inspired by God? No

Second Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is sufficient for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

And this brings us to a much more serious issue.

The Catholic Church teaches a false gospel, and sadly, many people are being deceived by it.

The Catholic Church teaches that justification involves sacraments, penance, and human cooperation with grace. But Scripture says:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Paul warned in Galatians 1:8 that anyone preaching another gospel is to be accursed. He also said in Galatians 2:21, "For if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Salvation is not something we earn through religious ceremonies or our own righteousness. It is God's gift through faith in Jesus Christ. Good works follow genuine salvation, but they do not purchase it (Ephesians 2:10).

And what about Mary?

You claim Mary judges women while Jesus judges men. Yet John 5:22 says, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."

Notice that word ALL. Scripture does not divide judgment between Jesus and Mary.

First Timothy 2:5 also says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

So where does Scripture tell us to pray to Mary? Where does it give her authority to judge women? Where does it teach that she shares Christ's role as mediator?

You have yet to provide a single passage establishing any of those claims.

Jesus warned, "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7).

That is exactly why these teachings are dangerous. People can spend their entire lives trusting religious traditions while never understanding the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

My concern is not defending Protestantism or attacking Catholics as individuals. My concern is that people are being led away from the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

If a church teaches something contrary to God's Word, that teaching must be rejected, regardless of how old the tradition is or how many people believe it.

So instead of directing me to the writings of men, show me from Scripture where these doctrines are taught.

God's Word is the authority, not the Catholic Church.

 

[amigo de christo]

Fathom, 1 Corinthians 14:34-38 does not support anything you have said about Mary being Queen of Heaven, Christ being inwardly female, or Mary functioning as a mediator.

Paul's subject in 1 Corinthians 14 is order in the gathering of the church. He has already told tongue-speakers to “keep silence” when there is no interpreter (v. 28), and he tells a prophet to “hold his peace” when another receives revelation (v. 30). The same Greek verb, sigaō, is being used. It is not absolute silence under every circumstance. It is silence required for orderly worship.

That must also be understood alongside 1 Corinthians 11:5, where Paul plainly refers to “every woman that prayeth or prophesieth.” So 1 Corinthians 14:34 cannot mean that a woman is forbidden from ever speaking a word in the assembly.

Paul explains the particular problem when he says, “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home” (1 Corinthians 14:35). Whatever specific disorder was occurring, Paul was correcting it and requiring submission and order rather than confusion.

Then notice verses 36-38:

“What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

That actually brings us straight back to the issue I raised with you. Paul does not tell Christians to go beyond what God has revealed and invent spiritual doctrines. He tells them to recognize the authority of what was written.

So now show me how 1 Corinthians 14:34-38 teaches that Jesus is inwardly female, that Mary is Queen of Heaven, that Christians should pray to Mary, or that we should place ourselves under Mary's protection.

It does not.

You changed the subject from proving your claims to attacking Scripture as my authority. But attacking the standard does not prove your doctrine. If your teaching comes from God, then show where God revealed it.

As Paul himself wrote earlier in this same letter: “that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6).

That is the issue. Where is it written?

Stand firm upon the holy scriptures my friend .
cause the mary queen of heaven they preach , IS NEITHER MARY nor is it of heaven .
Mary herself had rebuked that mindset . TO the trenches for the harlot does not rest
but has come to infiltrate all places .

 

[amigo de christo]

You have made it clear that you are here to defend the Catholic Church, even if that means appealing to the writings of men rather than the Word of God.

But why should I accept the writings of the early Church Fathers as authority? No one should do that.

Were their writings inspired by God? No

Second Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is sufficient for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

And this brings us to a much more serious issue.

The Catholic Church teaches a false gospel, and sadly, many people are being deceived by it.

The Catholic Church teaches that justification involves sacraments, penance, and human cooperation with grace. But Scripture says:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Paul warned in Galatians 1:8 that anyone preaching another gospel is to be accursed. He also said in Galatians 2:21, "For if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Salvation is not something we earn through religious ceremonies or our own righteousness. It is God's gift through faith in Jesus Christ. Good works follow genuine salvation, but they do not purchase it (Ephesians 2:10).

And what about Mary?

You claim Mary judges women while Jesus judges men. Yet John 5:22 says, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."

Notice that word ALL. Scripture does not divide judgment between Jesus and Mary.

First Timothy 2:5 also says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

So where does Scripture tell us to pray to Mary? Where does it give her authority to judge women? Where does it teach that she shares Christ's role as mediator?

You have yet to provide a single passage establishing any of those claims.

Jesus warned, "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7).

That is exactly why these teachings are dangerous. People can spend their entire lives trusting religious traditions while never understanding the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

My concern is not defending Protestantism or attacking Catholics as individuals. My concern is that people are being led away from the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

If a church teaches something contrary to God's Word, that teaching must be rejected, regardless of how old the tradition is or how many people believe it.

So instead of directing me to the writings of men, show me from Scripture where these doctrines are taught.

God's Word is the authority, not the Catholic Church.

sound it out while there is still time to do so . For the harlot rests not and by means of ecumeincal inclusivitiy
now draws all unto her . And the harlot will rage war against the sheep
AS SOON as her ecuemeincal phase has run its course and becomes the crusades against all who did not conform
to her inclusive god and its love and its peace plan . Its far worse in the churches than it is here .
BUT ITS coming in here too my friend . WE must make our final and last stand now .