The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[shepherdsword]

You don't understand the format of the book of Revelation. It shows the one and only future coming of Christ from different angles. Just because Revelation 14 doesn't mention white horses doesn't mean it's not speaking of the same event. Are white horses mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31? No. Yet, you believe it's the same event as Revelation 19:11-21, right?

Excellent. No matter how thoroughly the pre trib rapture myth is debunked it's proponents will stubbornly declare victory in hope the truth of Jesus' words concerning his return will allow an Orwellian rewrite and serve them an eschatological McDonald's Happy meal.

 

[Scott Downey]

It's not opinion brother, it is FACT. All one has to do is look at what happens at the 7th trumpet to see the truth of your words.

It is the Great Day of the Lord, the Day of God and the final judgment. Resurrection, rapture (our being gathered to Him by the angels from all over earth and heaven) and judgment all on the Last Day.

Then comes the new earth and new heaven in which dwells righteousness, all the evil is destroyed, for the former things have passed away.
God creates all things new.

2 Peter 3

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you, in both of which I stir up your purity of mind by way of remembrance,

2 that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,

3 knowing this first: that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”

5 For of this they are willfully ignorant: that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,

6 whereby the world as it then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

7 But the heavens and the earth which now are, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy manner of living and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Therefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you,

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing that ye know these things beforehand, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ephesians 2, on all of His, that is all those in Christ, wherever they may be, are gathered to Him in the dispensation of the fullness of time, which is the rapture. Heaven meets earth, and joined as one.

9 He hath made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself,

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21 - 21st Century King James Version

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of Heaven...

classic.biblegateway.com

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea.

2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

5 And He that sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said unto me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said unto me, “It is done! I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the Water of Life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[LoveYeshua]

He lives in his own world. He thinks he alone understands the truth and no one else does. He's delusional. Did you know that he thinks he's the one Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 who was caught up to the third heaven/paradise? Something is seriously wrong in his mind.

its unfortunate that he is this way. However he has to be careful God will not let unpunished people who push false doctrine.

 

[amigo de christo]

Really???
You thing AI is not a program of opinions?

AI is exactly that . AI has been given also the list of what is considered a religious extremist and a potential terroist .
And believe me when i say true christains are considered such .
When the ecumenical phase of lets be one p eoples with one common purpose for world peace
has run its course , What was programmed into AI and its data base will go into ENFORCE mode .
Now in that day and in that hour
Anything said , spoken by phone etc , typed
thats langague is in any way deemed as what it was programmed is religious extremism , aka THINK non inclusive ,
think ONLY one way to GOD , THINK not accepting sins, think not accepting other religions as paths to God
OH ITS GONNA BE DEEMED relgious extremism .
And the image that can speak will put no difference between even ISIS and a t rue sheep .
In fact , as i said , anything programmed into its data base of anti terroism
IT WILL DEEM a pot ential t er roist .
IT c annot be bargained with . It does not reason as does a man .
IT simply does and will the will of who it was always prepared unto .
THE BEAST . AI was never for humanity and the illusion that the govts of nations
would ever have control over it , WAS A LIE . IT was always global .
You might wanna take a peek a boo at what the heck is already listed
as reli gous extremism , as po tential terroist . Yoo hoo , BIBLE HOLDING true christains
were NUMBER ONE the t op of that list .
And for years they programmed the minds of all denominations within protestantville
and all the minds of catholics , and all the minds of even mainstream false relgions .
AND ALL into a god whose image and whose love THEY wo uld all in time beleive to be THE ONE TRUE GOD
of all religoins . OH but satan it was . THAT is who this generations ALL INCLUSIVE GOD always was .
And by means of his ecumeincal harlot who poured her cup of FORNICATION , though she called it love ,
unto them all to eventually merge them all with one mind and one common ground agenda for WORLD peace .
Folks The d uped every last one who sat under them and continued to do so .
SO my advice , yeah its the same , GET ALL out of anything connected to anything or one that has to do with ecumenicalism
inclusivism and its interfaith of anti christ peace plan .

 

[Marvelloustime]

AI is exactly that . AI has been given also the list of what is considered a religious extremist and a potential terroist .
And believe me when i say true christains are considered such .
When the ecumenical phase of lets be one p eoples with one common purpose for world peace
has run its course , What was programmed into AI and its data base will go into ENFORCE mode .
Now in that day and in that hour
Anything said , spoken by phone etc , typed
thats langague is in any way deemed as what it was programmed is religious extremism , aka THINK non inclusive ,
think ONLY one way to GOD , THINK not accepting sins, think not accepting other religions as paths to God
OH ITS GONNA BE DEEMED relgious extremism .
And the image that can speak will put no difference between even ISIS and a t rue sheep .
In fact , as i said , anything programmed into its data base of anti terroism
IT WILL DEEM a pot ential t er roist .
IT c annot be bargained with . It does not reason as does a man .
IT simply does and will the will of who it was always prepared unto .
THE BEAST . AI was never for humanity and the illusion that the govts of nations
would ever have control over it , WAS A LIE . IT was always global .
You might wanna take a peek a boo at what the heck is already listed
as reli gous extremism , as po tential terroist . Yoo hoo , BIBLE HOLDING true christains
were NUMBER ONE the t op of that list .
And for years they programmed the minds of all denominations within protestantville
and all the minds of catholics , and all the minds of even mainstream false relgions .
AND ALL into a god whose image and whose love THEY wo uld all in time beleive to be THE ONE TRUE GOD
of all religoins . OH but satan it was . THAT is who this generations ALL INCLUSIVE GOD always was .
And by means of his ecumeincal harlot who poured her cup of FORNICATION , though she called it love ,
unto them all to eventually merge them all with one mind and one common ground agenda for WORLD peace .
Folks The d uped every last one who sat under them and continued to do so .
SO my advice , yeah its the same , GET ALL out of anything connected to anything or one that has to do with ecumenicalism
inclusivism and its interfaith of anti christ peace plan .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Nor does it mean one wont face persecution and even death FOR JESUS sake .
Blood cometh .
Just as it has upon christains since the days of the apostels and just as it has throughout all ages .
Many have bled for Jesus .
Have you seen it thomas . Have you seen what christendom has made its bed with yet .
A HARLOT . who by means of sensual all inclusive judge Not love
HAS LED THEM TO THE LIE OF ANTI CHRIST and they beleive its the solution to attain the peace
of Jerusalem and of the world .
Soon the ecumeincal lets be one phase that hollered judge not God is love to all the sheep who were
trying to warn and correct sin and errors ,
BECOMETH THE CRUSADE phase of JOIN OR DIE . and all of it enforced by a poweful AI led digital system
who will enforce the law of its inclusive god , satan , upon the world .
And the image can speak and can cause the roundups and d eath of t hose who conformed NOT
to what this world believed was God , was love and was His plan f or peace .
YET IT WAS SATAN IN WOOL all along . Better to suffer and die for CHRIST
than to live unto anti ch rist . cause if this can happen to those who follow Christ ,
HOW MUCH SORER a punishment for those who
said AWAY with the biblical JESUS give us this all inclusive one and god . GONNA BE HORRENDOUS
for them all ON JESUS day . SO thanks f or you reminder , and i pray YOU HEED MINE
and get all OUTTA ANYTHING ecumeincal inclusive interfaith
and may none look back lest they be tempted to return to that wicked house .

@amigo de christo

 

[ThomasDGW]

"IMO The end of Rev 11 and the part of Matt 24 are the same timeframe when the second coming happens, and the rapture/gathering."

I can understand why a person might think this, as we see a trumpet and a powerful presence of the Lord in both, and also in the description of the rapture in 1 Thess 4. But there are more than one trumpet, while there can only be one manifestation where the people of the earth cry out.

Luke 17:30 refers to that day, when the Son of Man is revealed. Jesus instructed his disciples to not delay or return to get something. This cannot be the rapture, because when God catches up his own, there will not be a possibility of going back for anything.

Neither can it be a reference to the escape to the mountains at the time of the A of D, in spite of the similarities, simply because Jesus told us that this flight happens when he is revealed.

These similarities appear several times, and we have to be very cautious not to conflate things that seem similar.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I grew up hearing the pre-trib rapture taught everywhere, in church, on Christian radio, in popular Christian books and movies. At the same time my father was expressing his belief that the rapture would be post-trib. I could see his points, but I could not seem to refute the pre-trib arguments, and making the post-trib theory fit the Bible was not giving satisfactory results.

Through struggle with another doctrinal issue, I discovered a new way of almost woodenly taking scripture for what it said. After that issue became settled, I had the wild idea of trying the same "wooden" mrtjod on the rapture issue. I was surprised and gratified that the rapture clearly would be after the Great Tribulation.

When Marv Rosenthal came out with the pre-wrath theory, I thought that was the answer, and so did my father. I went to his seminar and bought his book. Yet, some nagging doubts remained with the pre-wrath view. The common post-trib position, with its overlapping of the seals and the trumpets, and even the bowls of wrath did not seem to give a satisfactory resolution.

To complicate matters, I found myself excluded from church after church after organization because I was sure that the pre-trib rapture was false, though the pre-wrath rapture simply seemed the least problematic.

That all started over 45 years ago. I went over Dwight Pentecosts 28? reasons to believe the pre-trib rapture at the request of a pastor who felt bad at having to exclude me from membership. I found them all inadequate.

Then, about 15 years ago, it dawned on me that Luke 17 cleared up the problems, indicating that gathering of Matthew 24 to cut short the tribulation of the church is NOT the rapture. Then the rapture has to happen at the last trump of Revelation 11, meaning that the rapture is not a surprise event.

At that point, all the doctrinal problems and doubts disappeared. That made me a confirmed post-tribber for the first time, though I do NOT follow any of the post-trib systems I was previously aware of. It also made me very lonely. I would appreciate it if someone would listen to what I have found instead of hurling demeaning comments back and forth.

How many comings are there by Jesus?
Is the "postrib one and only coming" at the white horses, postrib, depicted in Rev 19?

Or is the completely different coming in Rev 14:14 the one and only coming ?

 

[ThomasDGW]

It's not opinion brother, it is FACT. All one has to do is look at what happens at the 7th trumpet to see the truth of your words.

Look, this is what is causing these differing views. We should not be looking at similar things that happen and matching things together on that basis and on the basis of how the scheme fits your theology or how reasonable something sounds. Instead, we should be matching things based on direct statements.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Excellent. No matter how thoroughly the pre trib rapture myth is debunked it's proponents will stubbornly declare victory in hope the truth of Jesus' words concerning his return will allow an Orwellian rewrite and serve them an eschatological McDonald's Happy meal.

Pure commentary
I can easily defend the pretrib rapture.
You do not have any verses.
Why are you in here kidding yourself with that happy meal pickle on your shirt?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Excellent. No matter how thoroughly the pre trib rapture myth is debunked it's proponents will stubbornly declare victory in hope the truth of Jesus' words concerning his return will allow an Orwellian rewrite and serve them an eschatological McDonald's Happy meal.

Tell us Mr expert, is this passage the rapture or the wicked taken?
Who is the half taken, when are they taken, and in what setting.
Mat 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[shepherdsword]

Tell us Mr expert, is this passage the rapture or the wicked taken?
Who is the half taken, when are they taken, and in what setting.
Mat 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It doesn't matter. All that matters is that it is AFTER the tribulation. Don't jerk it out of context, go back up to verse 29.

Mt 24:29-30
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It is YOU who has no verses...zero, nada, null

 

[CrowCross]

So, you believe in both a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture? He clearly taught a post-trib rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

None of those verses mention a rapture. If they do and I missed it...post it.

How is the rapture as you put it....clearly taught....here.

How exactly do you think He spoke of a pre-trib rapture in relation to the times of Noah? Do you think the coming of the Son of Man He referenced in Matthew 24:39 is a different coming of the Son of Man than He referenced in Matthew 24:30-31?

I've mentioned it to you several times. I spoke of the social economical conditions.
Do you need me to repeat it?

It doesn't say He then turns around and goes back to heaven again while bringing us with Him. Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven in that case instead of meeting Him "in the air"?

Christ brings back those in spirit form that have already died. Reunited them with their body...then raptures the christians that have not died yet....then takes them to His Fathers house where He has built rooms for us. John 14: 1-4.

 

[CrowCross]

Nonsense. Scripture never speaks of such a thing. All Christians will be in the rapture at the same time according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Those who miss the rapture will all be killed (1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

I suppose you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[CrowCross]

That all started over 45 years ago. I went over Dwight Pentecosts 28? reasons to believe the pre-trib rapture at the request of a pastor who felt bad at having to exclude me from membership. I found them all inadequate.

I don't think any church should exclude you on your eschatological beliefs.

 

[ThomasDGW]

I don't think any church should exclude you on your eschatological beliefs.

I appreciate your sentiments, but I think that the rancor expressed in this forum would not allow inclusion in the same church.

 

[ScottA]

Where do you get all this? in a crackerjack box? I told you once you say strange things this is an example.

How You dare call this truth!

I spoke of the points of tribulation and the return of Jesus, then gave those points correctly as written. The bullet points I gave are mostly scripture, just put together, connection the dots (points). If that is "strange" to you, that's on you.

 

[CrowCross]

I appreciate your sentiments, but I think that the rancor expressed in this forum would not allow inclusion in the same church.

If you're resentful (rancor) of a particular church's belief....why would you want to join that church?

 

[Davidpt]

I've mentioned it to you several times. I spoke of the social economical conditions.
Do you need me to repeat it?

Sorry if my post is a bit lengthy. I don't like to discuss things with one liners like you typically do. I like to see how someone is reasoning through something, such as I am here. But that's me. Not everyone is me, I guess.


The ones worshiping the beast aren't experiencing great tribulation in the same manner as those refusing to worship it. Look at Revelation 13. That is meaning great tribulation.

Does any of the following sound like they are experiencing great tribulation in the manner you think they are?

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Even though I didn't include verse 7, but look at verse 7 and then verse 15---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Are those things also happening to those worshiping the beast during great tribulation? No! In comparison, those worshiping the beast, life goes on as usual. And verse 17, for another, proves it. They can still buy and sell, the ones not worshiping the beast can't. But you want us to believe nonsense, that great tribulation is affecting everyone on the earth in the same manner.

When 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is meaning---in regard to saying peace and safety, it is meaning when they are worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign. It is when they can freely buy and sell but those refusing to worship it can't. Pretribbers, just like Preterists, conflate great tribulation with the wrath of God and judgment.

The wrath of God is not being poured out during great tribulation. That is absurd. As if it makes sense, that during the wrath of God would they then be saying this--Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

If the wrath of God does not involve making war with the beast, then I give up. Once again, this---Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?---undeniably proves that the wrath of God is not underway at the time. The wrath of God doesn't begin until the 7th trumpet. The reign of the beast is during the 6th trumpet.

Let's go this route for a moment then.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


This for certain would describe something that can fit saying peace and safety, in comparison with--because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth

But look where Pretrib has these events taking place in their timeline. Not before 1 Thess 5:3 is meaning, but after it is meaning and that the church is no longer on the planet.