Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

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Episkopos

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Who is Jesus in Epi's gospel?
What is Jesus in Epi's gospel?
Where is Jesus in Epi's gospel?

We will compare what you say to scripture.
You want a judicial forgiveness..a legal forgiveness...like what Jesus Barabbas got. That's your Jesus...the decoy one. The scapegoat...the azazel. Whatever you can get for free.

The Jesus I follow was sacrificed and to follow Him I also am sacrificed. I follow Him in death into life. VERY FEW follow that Jesus. The cost is too high.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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ALL sin is unto death for the unbeliever. Because they are in unbelief of God's forgiveness. NO sin is unto death for the person who is believing and trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.

Romans 8:33-34
33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Hebrews 7:24-25
24But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely (forever)d those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.
Yes, because they cannot bear fruit. How do you know that 1 John 1:7 is only about unintentional sin. Why not believe the OSAS of Luther and Calvin, or maybe you already do.
 
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You want a judicial forgiveness..a legal forgiveness...like what Jesus Barabbas got.
Yes! A Thousand Times, Yes!

I have no other way to get into the kingdom of God. I will never be good enough while in my fallen unredeemed flesh to enter the kingdom of God on the basis of my righteousness. And even if I could be good enough, there is the matter of my past sin that would keep me out. Only through the forgiveness of God in Christ can a person obtain the right standing with him that would permit their entry into the kingdom of God.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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We can not know what John meant with "sin unto death", he does not explain it.

One we know, calling God the devil, the total opposite of Him like the Pharisees did.
Do you not remember that the Old Covenant is our schoolmaster? It teaches sins unto death and sins not unto death in the form of "willful lawlessness" and "unintentional sin." God does not change.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Yes! A Thousand Times, Yes!

I have no other way to get into the kingdom of God. I will never be good enough while in my fallen unredeemed flesh to enter the kingdom of God on the basis of my righteousness. And even if I could be good enough, there is the matter of my past sin that would keep me out. Only through the forgiveness of God in Christ can a person obtain the right standing with him that would permit their entry into the kingdom of God.
There you go not knowing the Scriptures! Once you are born again of the Spirit YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH. What you believe about the flesh is the false doctrine of the Reformation that Jesus declared as "dead."
 
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Yes, because they cannot bear fruit.
Unredeemed, unbelieving sinners are condemned by their unrighteousness. They don't believe in the forgiveness of God in Christ that would otherwise rescue them from the just penalty of their sins.

How do you know that 1 John 1:7 is only about unintentional sin.
1 John 1:7 can only be about sin that is not committed because of willful unbelief because there is no forgiveness available for the person who is in unbelief. You can't have the benefit of a forgiveness that you have rejected in unbelief. The forgiveness of God is obtained and applied to a person by that person believing and trusting in it. That's what being made right with God by faith, apart from the merit of works, means.

Why not believe the OSAS of Luther and Calvin, or maybe you already do.
How are you trying to relate the matter of OSAS to this discussion?
 

1stCenturyLady

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Yes! A Thousand Times, Yes!

I have no other way to get into the kingdom of God. I will never be good enough while in my fallen unredeemed flesh to enter the kingdom of God on the basis of my righteousness. And even if I could be good enough, there is the matter of my past sin that would keep me out. Only through the forgiveness of God in Christ can a person obtain the right standing with him that would permit their entry into the kingdom of God.
You are mistaking our body as "the flesh" Paul is referring to, but it is not. The flesh he speaks of is the carnal sin nature, not our body. The flesh controls the actions of our body and why the sin nature must be born again of the Spirit so that the actions of our body are now righteous, as the Spirit is righteous. Without the Spirit the old sin nature controls the body as it has since Adam sinned. This is why Jesus came, to TAKE AWAY our sin. From where? Our NATURE - our spirit and soul - the invisible inner part of us.
 
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There you go not knowing the Scriptures! Once you are born again of the Spirit YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH.
I believe and agree with that. But I still sin. Just not intentionally and deliberately in unbelief as an unbeliever does. Not being in the flesh does not mean the believer doesn't ever sin. It means he has a different relationship with the flesh. The flesh for the born again believer is like a deceased husband who no longer has authority over them to make them bear fruit to him out of lawful obligation to him anymore. Like how a woman married to a husband is obligated by reason of law to obey and submit to her husband and bear his fruit. The law that requires you do that cannot enforce that relationship anymore because marriage only lasts as long as the husband is alive. As believers, we died to the law that enforces our relationship with 'flesh' and so we are free to marry another, Jesus Christ, and bear his fruit.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Unredeemed, unbelieving sinners are condemned by their unrighteousness. They don't believe in the forgiveness of God in Christ that would otherwise rescue them from the just penalty of their sins.
It is more than the penalty of our sins that Jesus redeems. It is SIN ITSELF.

How are you trying to relate the matter of OSAS to this discussion?
It is a false doctrine from the Reformation. Everything you seem to believe is related to the doctrines of the Reformation.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I believe and agree with that. But I still sin. Just not intentionally and deliberately in unbelief as an unbeliever does. Not being in the flesh does not mean the believer doesn't ever sin. It means he has a different relationship with the flesh. The flesh for the born again believer is like a deceased husband who no longer has authority over them to make them bear fruit to him out of lawful obligation to him anymore. Like how a woman married to a husband is obligated by reason of law to obey and submit to her husband and bear his fruit.
If you are really born again, you would have no desire to sin. So how do you know you sin if it is unintentional. That means unknown. Are you just mouthing a false belief? A belief that is against what Paul tells us? We are to reckon ourselves free of sin, lest we sin. By telling yourself you still sin, you surely will.
 
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It is more than the penalty of our sins that Jesus redeems. It is SIN ITSELF.
As I have just said in a post above, the power and authority that the flesh has over us ceases. Because the marriage one has to flesh ends at the death of that husband. Your flesh doesn't literally die, of course (not yet). It's figurative language used to describe how the Holy Spirit in you has removed the power and authority of the flesh as though it is dead, likening it to the death of a husband who once exercised his power over a wife by the authority given him by the law of marriage. With husband 'flesh' not deceased (as I have just described what that means) its power and authority over you to bear it's fruit (sin) ends and you are now free to be married to Jesus Christ and bear his fruit, the fruit of righteousness.

Romans 7:2,4
2by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.
4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Romans 6 explains how knowing this with certainty and in faith, counting it as true, is the key to overcoming sin and no longer having to submit to it. It's how we can say to sin, "not tonight, honey, I have a headache." The law no longer being able to enforce a marital relationship to sin you are no longer in because of the 'death' of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-12
11count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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As I have just said in a post above, the power and authority that the flesh has over us ceases. Because the marriage one has to flesh ends at the death of that husband. Your flesh doesn't literally die, of course (not yet). It's figurative language used to describe how the Holy Spirit in you has removed the power and authority of the flesh as though it is dead, likening it to the death of a husband who once exercised his power over a wife by the authority given him by the law of marriage. With husband 'flesh' not deceased (as I have just described what that means) its power and authority over you to bear it's fruit (sin) ends and you are now free to be married to Jesus Christ and bear his fruit, the fruit of righteousness.

Romans 7:2,4
2by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.
4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Romans 6 explains how knowing this with certainty and in faith is the key to overcoming sin and no longer having to submit to it. It's how we can say to sin, "not tonight, honey, I have a headache." The law no longer being able to enforce a marital relationship you are no longer in because of the 'death' of the flesh.

Romans 6:11-12
11count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
The point is "the flesh" that Paul is speaking of has nothing to do with our BODY. It is the invisible inner NATURE that is in control of our body. Either clean, or filthy.
 
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The point is "the flesh" that Paul is speaking of has nothing to do with our BODY. It is the invisible inner NATURE that is in control of our body. Either clean, or filthy.
No, the 'flesh' means your biological functions and your mind/soul. Your spirit is the inner man where transformation has occurred by the Spirit - Spirit in union with spirit (like a marriage).

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We spend a lifetime of conforming the flesh and mind to the transformation that has occurred inward in the inner man by the Spirit. That's what discipleship is all about. Growing up to be what God has (re)made you to be. Having once been born in the line of Adam, we grew up to bear his likeness. But now, having been (re)born in the line of Christ, we grow up to bear his likeness.

1 Corinthians 15:46-49
46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we g bear the image of the heavenly man.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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No, the 'flesh' means your biological functions and your mind/soul. Your spirit is the inner man where transformation has occurred by the Spirit - Spirit in union with spirit (like a marriage).

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We spend a lifetime of conforming the flesh and mind to the transformation that has occurred inward in the inner man by the Spirit. That's what discipleship is all about. Growing up to be what God has (re)made you to be. Having once been born in the line of Adam, we grew up to bear his likeness. But now, having been (re)born in the line of Christ, we grow up to bear his likeness.
Then how can the flesh be in the past tense? Because it is NOT talking about our body. It is talking about the spirit and soul that makes up our nature. Does your beliefs say that you still have a sin nature? If not, maybe we are closer than I thought of you. Or is it your very present sin nature that is what tells you you still sin?
 
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So am I. But the unchanged Bible with two types of sin, not the "sin is sin" of the Reformation that Jesus says is dead. Meaning there is no life of truth in it.
The only sin that is unto death is the sin, any sin, that stems from your willful decision to sin in unbelief.

The Catholics erroneously translated the concept of some sins carrying the death penalty in the covenant of law into this New Covenant where ALL sin can be forgiven.

Acts 13:38-39
38“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Under the law there was no forgiveness for premeditated murder, cursing/attacking your father or mother, kidnapping, negligent homicide, sorcery, bestiality, making sacrifices to other 'gods', adultery, homosexuality, sinning defiantly, blasphemy, and bearing false witness. All required the death penalty. But ALL of these things are forgiven and you can live in the New Covenant of Christ's ministry and sacrifice.

David is the example of this forgiveness that is by faith and is apart from the law that Paul uses to prove and illustrate this truth.

Romans 4:5-8
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” b

He was a murderer and an adulterer with no remedy under the law. But he found the forgiveness of God that is outside of the law and is through faith in the eternal ministry and sacrifice of Christ and which was revealed to all with the coming and appearing of Christ.
 
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Then how can the flesh be in the past tense?
Flesh is a noun, so I don't understand your question.
If you want to use a specific passage of scripture to explain your position we can discuss it.
I will say it is regrettable that the NIV introduced the phrase 'sin nature' into our vocabulary. It means something but it has caused more confusion and error than it has fixed. They have since stopped using it.

Because it is NOT talking about our body.
The flesh does mean both body and soul. It's clear that addictions are not just mental but are rooted in biology, too. The fact that the body becomes enslaved to various physical stimulations as a matter of biology, not just the mind, is proof of that.
 

Laurina

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Epi, Epi, Epi, Epi, Epi, that's all I read.
I was answering the questions you asked!!
The discussion started by MC saying -- the prophet you both support through tick and thin -- epi has been as one of the spies being in the promised and now is back and telling us what he saw.

And what does your prophet preach?

The beauty he saw, encouraging people, edifying people ?

No, his message is fear, like the 10 spies.

Wake up.

Remember what Epi recently said, how he in an unguarded moment sinned and trembled all over afraid the Lord would cast him in outer darkness.

IF you don't want to hear about him...why did YOU ask?

Paul had something to say about following men.
I'm  defending (maybe not very well, mind you) this man who follows God from you (and others) who try to soil his reputation.

1Cor 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Cor 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”
1Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul [Epi] crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul [Epi]?
Yes, it's terrible, all the quarreling here!! I hate it, I usually stay away because of it. It has kept me silent for years. I had only been a visitor, watching from the sidelines.
Did I say I was of Epi???? I believe I told you what he taught, because you asked...was I not clear enough?
We have to follow Christ, the One was crucified for you,
I agree wholeheartedly.
start thinking for yourself.
I do, and am, and that's why I'm defending a man who loves and teaches the truth.
Epi preaches a gospel fear, not rightly divided, leaving out the love of God and many other things.
No, he teaches to have the fear of God since it's the beginning of wisdom. Have you not read that in the bible? It's said many times, you should do a study on that, I did.
"Not rightly divided,"....that's according to your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree on that.
I don't think you give Epi a chance to get as far as "the love of God and many other things" because of all the defending he has to do. He's like Nehemiah trying to rebuild the broken down walls of Jerusalem with one hand and defending with a sword with the other hand.
Here is the apostle John -

1Joh 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Joh 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1Joh 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
1Joh 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

1Joh 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where is the fear ?
Joshua 24:14

"Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."

Deut. 6:13
"Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name."

Deut.6:24
"And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day."

Deut. 8:6
"Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him."

Ps.61:5
"For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name."

Ps 34:9
"O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him."

Ps 34:11
"Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD."

Ps 33:18
"Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;"

Deut. 10:12
"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,"

Deut. 28:58
"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;"

Ps 19:9
"The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether."

Ps 25:14
"The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant."

Acts 9:31
"Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied."

Luke 1:50
"And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation."

Rev. 19:5
"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

These are a few of the many verses that talk of the fear of the Lord. Like I said, do your own study and come to your own conclusions. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Blessings, brother!
 
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