Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[rmb60]

So, you believe that you never sin, in desire, thought, word or deed?

That makes one of us, I know that in deed, thought, desire, word, fail to do what is right I do indeed sin at times

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What you're not getting is temptation is a desire to sin.
Jesus was tempted to sin. Jesus struggled with the desire to sin, just as we do. In your theology, that means he was not born again.

You're wrong. If you let yourself dwell on a temptation you are confronted with, you are setting yourself up for failure. But if your conscience says turn away and you do, you cannot be enticed. One who is born again of the Spirit has the same seed in them that Jesus had and what they want above anything is to do the will of the Father. You have no desire to sin.

 

[Lizbeth]

When Cain sinned, there was no law against what he had done to judge Him by. So he lived, and God put a mark on him so no one would kill him. That mark became a "law" to the people.

There is a difference between murder and killing. It is okay to kill as in war, or in self-defense or to save someone else. Those are not sins. When I committed adultery I became a slave to it, even though I was 30 years old and had gone to church my whole life. It was a sobering surprise to realize AFTER I became born again of the Spirit, that I had never been saved until God took away my DESIRE to commit lawlessness from my sin nature, leaving me with a clean nature. John 15:3. I don't know why you think you could even want to commit lawless sin once all desire to do so has been taken from your nature. You would have to have your sin nature still. That would mean that person is not born again.

I'm not saying believers WANT to sin, I'm saying believers are not immune to temptation and may fall. Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall. Why we are to guard our hearts and be sober and alert because the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

I think it is a mistake to impose one's own individual experience/gifts/measure onto others. Everyone's born again experience and the measure we are given at the time is not the same. Each person receives different gifts and different measures of faith and grace, as the Lord wills.

 

[Lizbeth]

When Cain sinned, there was no law against what he had done to judge Him by. So he lived, and God put a mark on him so no one would kill him. That mark became a "law" to the people.

There is a difference between murder and killing. It is okay to kill as in war, or in self-defense or to save someone else. Those are not sins. When I committed adultery I became a slave to it, even though I was 30 years old and had gone to church my whole life. It was a sobering surprise to realize AFTER I became born again of the Spirit, that I had never been saved until God took away my DESIRE to commit lawlessness from my sin nature, leaving me with a clean nature. John 15:3. I don't know why you think you could even want to commit lawless sin once all desire to do so has been taken from your nature. You would have to have your sin nature still. That would mean that person is not born again.

Just want to add, with regard to Cain, that we are not under the law either, as long as we dont' abuse God's grace and keep on sinning wilfully.......where no law is there is no transgression. And yet sin is still sin and wrong is still wrong, but the Lord just is not imputing it to us.

 

[Laurina]

Just want to add, with regard to Cain, that we are not under the law either, as long as we dont' abuse God's grace and keep on sinning wilfully.......where no law is there is no transgression. And yet sin is still sin and wrong is still wrong, but the Lord just is not imputing it to us.

Can you specify which "law" we are not under?
...since Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.
Matt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
2 Tim 2:5 "And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not saying believers WANT to sin, I'm saying believers are not immune to temptation and may fall. Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall. Why we are to guard our hearts and be sober and alert because the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

I think it is a mistake to impose one's own individual experience/gifts/measure onto others. Everyone's born again experience and the measure we are given at the time is not the same. Each person receives different gifts and different measures of faith and grace, as the Lord wills.

What I teach is to undo the false teaching that a born again Christian cannot be sinless until they die and their body is resurrected. Sin does not reside in the body, but in the nature. It is our nature that Jesus meant must be born again. It consists of our spirit and soul - our mind and conscience/heart. Think of the body as a floppy wooden puppet with strings to the nature. The nature is the puppet master.

What I did a long time ago is test myself against Galatians 5:19-21. I passed, and you probably will too. Another test in the Bible is 1 John 3:22. 100% of my prayers are answered, because I never pray for what I need until Jesus actually speaks to me and tells me His words (rhema) to speak. John 15:7. Do you listen for His voice? He usually interrupts my own thoughts with a strong word that I cannot mistake for my own thoughts.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Just want to add, with regard to Cain, that we are not under the law either, as long as we dont' abuse God's grace and keep on sinning wilfully.......where no law is there is no transgression. And yet sin is still sin and wrong is still wrong, but the Lord just is not imputing it to us.

Sorry, L, but you've been taught the wrong definition of grace. It is not a cover up of sin. It is the power to not sin.

Romans 1:16-17 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." Jesus isn't full of unmerited favor. No! He is full of supernatural power and truth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Can you specify which "law" we are not under?
...since Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.
Matt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

We are not under the letter of the law, but the Spirit of the law. Take for instance, the Sabbath. It can only be kept by the letter of the Law, once a week. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and now our rest is in Christ, 24/7/365. As Hebrews 4 says, "Today." Then when tomorrow gets here, it is still "Today." We establish the law, because instead of written on stone, it is written on our hearts and is now part of our nature. When we still had a sin nature we were born with, our nature was in opposition to the law. But now that it has been cleansed we naturally love what God loves, and hate what God hates. Because He lives inside of us that we may partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

One who is born again of the Spirit has the same seed in them that Jesus had and what they want above anything is to do the will of the Father.

In the deepest part of the believer, in the inner man, in his spirit, that is where the desire to do the will of God is. That is where transformation has occurred. The struggle with the desire to sin (a.k.a. temptation) comes from the outer man, the flesh. That’s because the body of flesh has yet to be redeemed.

7the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you

The believer spends a lifetime of conforming the outer man to the transformation that has occurred in the innermost part of himself. That's what discipleship is all about.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You're wrong.

I'm not wrong. Temptation is the desire to sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

If you let yourself dwell on a temptation you are confronted with, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Everyone knows that. The issue we're addressing is the matter of temptation. Temptation is the desire to sin. That doesn't go away when you get born again. What happens when you get born again is you have power to resist it.

 

[ProDeo]

Wonderful sister and amen.

Okay, sorry about that.
Presently when I read in the Bible about the "fear of the Lord" (there are many verses) I believe it to mean #2, Holy fear, awe, reverence, reverent respect, total submission. And this was something I learned by experience when I was part of a fellowship some 25+ years ago. The presence of the Lord was heavily with and on us for about 2ish years.
During that time, it was a fearful thing just to prepare to go to our meetings. Fearful because I didn't want to disrespect, dishonour, fall short or disappoint God in any way. (All the members felt that way...we had a healthy fear because we also experienced God's discipline and displeasure). I made sure that my conscious was completely clean before showing up.

I was part of 2 similar movements, first the "Jesus-Children" in the 70's and later the meetings of "Youth with a Mission" in the 80's. The explosions of Praise, it was so good.

When in my younger years (having grown up in a Christian household) I had a year or 2 of rebellion and I was in sin, I experienced #1 (I did not experience all of what you listed, but I agree it all could be included in the list), guilt (because I knew better), scard of getting caught in my rebellion (yet knowing that God saw ALL), but not scard enough to stop. I was doing what I wanted to do knowing it wasn't God’s will. Foolishness!! Thinking back, rebellion is just plain stupid and unwise because your only hurting yourself (and perhaps others). I had to fail big time before I cried out to God. And, true to His word, He rescued me and set me on a much better path. I'm still on that path....way, way, way farther down the road from when I started 40 years ago.

Being raised as a so so Christian I did not even know who Jesus really was, I thought He was just one of the 3 holy figures, Moses, David and Jesus. So I skipped that period of yours. Change came after my conversion and that was real from that moment on. Nevertheless and in retrospect while (notable!) considering myself born again looking back the sins I committed unknowingly and perhaps even willingly (I am not entirely sure) made me feel deeply ashamed and I learned something about myself, 1) in my flesh is no good (copyright Paul), 2) what I am saved from, 3) I am a sinner saved by Grace, 4) I am a forgiven sinner saved by blood of Christ.

I would say, because of the sum of my experiences with God in my 61 years of life I have a healthy fear of Him (although it's a very small sample size compared to His eternity). So, when I read about the fear of the Lord in His word, I whole-heartedly agree!
I also think it's very important to learn about it as it could save you...it's as important as learning about His love. (It's double-sided...the fear of the Lord AND the love of God...a perfect balance.)
For your benefit I will also add that I know Him to be very loving, caring, thoughtful, faithful, tender-hearted, fiercely protective, long-suffering, kind, wise, and humorous.

I hope i explained myself better so you can follow (understand).

Perfect sister.

There are 2 fears I have.

1. The Holy fear of the Lord when I will meet my Creator, trembling being in His light and 100% holiness like John of Revelation - I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and I hope He will say fear not. Isaiah had an encounter with the Lord in chapter 6, Paul on his way to Damascus met Jesus and was put into darkness for 3 days, that kind of holy fear when you meet pure holiness.

2. The fear for myself. I know myself. I know my limitations. I am really tested? Will I endure to the end? When can I say with Paul -- I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith -- What if first century persecution becomes my part? Will I die for the Lord???

I have put my trust in passages like :

Jude 1:24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
Jude 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

You you might find this odd, or even silly, but some 15-20 years ago I have prayed the Lord to take away my free will in the case I stumble after all. I don't know if that is a valid prayer, but that's how I think about myself.

In normal daily life I don't live in fear, I don't know the future and I trust His promises.

Peace and blessings!

Amen and I am happy we can speak so openly.

 

[ProDeo]

You're wrong. If you let yourself dwell on a temptation you are confronted with, you are setting yourself up for failure. But if your conscience says turn away and you do, you cannot be enticed. One who is born again of the Spirit has the same seed in them that Jesus had and what they want above anything is to do the will of the Father. You have no desire to sin.

Semantics -

When there is no desire there is no temptation.

A born of God faces the temptation and rejects it.

2Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; [KJV]

 

[David1701]

But Jesus himself had the desire to sin. He was tempted in all ways just as we are.

The desire to sin is not merely a temptation; it is itself sin. Jesus had no such desires!

Remember the commandment "Thou shalt not covet."? That is desire. Or, when Jesus said that any man who lusts after a woman (desire) has committed adultery with her in his heart?

 

[David1701]

I did not have a desire to sin, but I know the Word, and shut down my free will. Remember Adam wasn't created with a desire to sin, just free will.

If you can shut down your "free" will, then it's not very free, is it? In any case, how many wills do you have? Which will do you use to shut down your "free" will?

Incoherence is a mark of confusion; and confusion is a mark of having fallen into some error.

 

[David1701]

I'm confident that @David1701 knows what it actually means to not have the desire to sin. It does not mean you are never tempted by sin. It means in the deepest part of your being you don't want to sin because a transformation has occurred, despite the fact that the desire to sin may present itself in the flesh in the form of various temptations.

Yes; our born again spirit does not desire to sin; but, in our flesh, there dwells no good thing; hence the constant battle between flesh and spirit.

 

[David1701]

That makes one of us, I know that in deed, thought, desire, word, fail to do what is right I do indeed sin at times

That's true of all of us.

Occasionally, I've come across someone who claims sinless perfection; but, when investigated, it turns out that he has re-defined sin to omit the sins that he commits, or he is just in pride and denial.

 

[Lizbeth]

Can you specify which "law" we are not under?
...since Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.
Matt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
2 Tim 2:5 "And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully."

Sin is still sin and wrong is still wrong, but believers are not under the Law of Moses...which brings a curse of death for failing to keep the Law in any tiny jot or tittle of it. Jesus became a curse for us. As long as we don't abuse this grace and keep on sinning wilfully, our inadvertent sins are not imputed to us. We dont' know the half of our iniquity....without the cross and the grace that flows to the believer from it, nobody would be saved.

If we become aware of any sin or shortcoming though, we need to repent of it and not take grace for granted by failing to bring it to the cross and confess/forsake it, or at least seek God's help to forsake it if it is something that requires a battle Yes, strive lawfully, but I dont' believe that is talking about lesser inadvertent sins. The Law doesnt' even mention every possible sin or flaw that a person can have. But should someone sin in a major way, they need to repent of it (for real, in heartfelt sincerity) and they may be restored.....we have an Advocate.....for example even the Corinthian believer who had his father's wife was restored once he repented.

Gal 3:6-

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[Lizbeth]

You're not understanding me at all!! When I say we need to have "the fear of the Lord" you hear fearful. Please show me where I said we need to be fearful.

Please quote me. I want to see exactly where I said that. Please don't put words in my mouth and then jump to false conclusions based on your faulty understanding. You're better off to ask questions.

Can you not understand that having the fear of the Lord and being fearful is NOT the same???

I havent' been able to follow and process everything that is being said, but I do believe there are two different kinds of fear being spoken of in scripture.

Heb 12:18-24

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (my brackets: these are old testament saints whose faith was made perfect after the cross through the gospel)

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



1Jo 4:12-19

No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and HIS LOVE HAS BEEN PERFECTED IN US.

By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

And we have KNOWN AND BELIEVED the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

We love Him because He first loved us.

Jhn 3:16
For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Rom 8:15

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.



Heb 4:14-16

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly (ie, without fear) unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Working out our salvation with fear and trembling is not talking about the carnal visceral fear per se that the Israelites lived with under the Law………..it is talking about the kind of fear that knows the supremacy and greatness of God and that causes us to humble ourselves before Him and makes us take Him and his word very seriously, with sincerity. It means not taking Him lightly, as the word mentions somewhere. And it means putting Him first.

Being perfected in love, I believe is what happens when we come to faith in Christ. But also at the same time, on another level, as we are being trained up and grow like children we do fear God's displeasure and consequences if we should sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes; our born again spirit does not desire to sin; but, in our flesh, there dwells no good thing; hence the constant battle between flesh and spirit.

Until the outer man sin nature is crucified. Then the inner man takes on the covering power of Christ to walk in His resurrection life. No longer I but Christ. No more sin...just rest, peace and glory.