Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Lizbeth]

Sorry, L, but you've been taught the wrong definition of grace. It is not a cover up of sin. It is the power to not sin.

No I have to disagree. Grace includes power too, but also it does cover our sins (inadvertent) , in the sense that the Lord will graciously overlook and not judge them.

Rom 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

 

[marks]

No I have to disagree. Grace includes power too, but also it does cover our sins (inadvertent) , in the sense that the Lord will graciously overlook and not judge them.

With our sins removed, we have no impediment to trust God fully, and it is faith that allows us to walk in the Spirit. Grace is God's gift to us, which opens the door for us to leave sin.

Much love!

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The desire to sin is not merely a temptation; it is itself sin. Jesus had no such desires!

Remember the commandment "Thou shalt not covet."? That is desire. Or, when Jesus said that any man who lusts after a woman (desire) has committed adultery with her in his heart?

When you understand that desire is an impulse of the flesh you can understand how Jesus, just like everyone else, was tempted. When a man, for example, sees a scantily clad attractive woman other than his wife, desire rises up in the flesh. It is a biological response. That's what it means to be tempted. That is not a sin. Entertaining it in the mind is. Acting on it most certainly is.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

It means not taking Him lightly, as the word mentions somewhere.

Do you mean this?

Hebrews 12:5
5“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

When we still had a sin nature we were born with, our nature was in opposition to the law. But now that it has been cleansed we naturally love what God loves, and hate what God hates.

Perhaps you're not aware that the phrase 'sin nature' that you keep using is a regrettable translation of the word 'flesh' used in early versions of the NIV. Regrettable because it has been so misused by the church.

The corrupt desires of the flesh are what we contend with as Christians because even though our bodies have been sanctified (made clean and set apart for a holy purpose) it is still unredeemed flesh, nonetheless. That is where the struggle between righteousness and unrighteousness resides in the believer. That includes the mind and emotions (not the spirit of a person).

The battle is for the mind of the believer. The desires of the flesh, and our spirit in union with the Spirit of God deep in our inner man, contend with one another for control of the mind. Without the Spirit, the flesh wins that battle easily. Hands down. It's hardly a contest. In Christ, the authority and power of the flesh is stripped away so that we can bring our minds into conformity with the Spirit and away from conformity with the desires of the flesh. At the resurrection, our flesh will be redeemed and it will no longer be in existence in its fallen Adamic form for it to compete for our attention. Hallelujah, Hallelujah , Hallelujah! This is the hope of righteousness for which we patiently wait.

Galatians 5:5
5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

Romans 8:23-25
23we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

You claim to have that righteousness already. That is completely un-Biblical. You have the declaration of righteousness that is by faith - a legal right standing with God because of the forgiveness of God you have received in Jesus Christ. But you do not have the righteousness of mind and body that the believer will receive at the resurrection when they receive their glorified body.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Until the outer man sin nature is crucified. Then the inner man takes on the covering power of Christ to walk in His resurrection life.

That happens at conversion. The power and authority of the flesh to make you bear it's fruit is broken when one believes in and receives the sacrifice of Christ and the hope to come by faith. That doesn't mean you'll always avail yourself of the power and authority you have over the flesh. It means you have it, not that you know how to use it and will always use it. That's what discipleship is all about.

No more sin...just rest, peace and glory.

While we wait for the redemption of the body there will be the potential to sin. Mostly because born again believers only receive a down payment of the Holy Spirit, not the fullness of the Spirit which we will receive in the age to come. The down payment guarantees what is to come. Just like a down payment on a house is the guarantee of payment in full at a future time. The Holy Spirit in us is God's promise to us of a righteousness to come.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you mean this?

Hebrews 12:5
5“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

Amen. And these also:

Deu 32:15
But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Rom 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

I get a sense that "lightly" means not taking the Lord seriously...taking Him or His grace for granted....being dismissive of His discipline etc. If we take Him seriously we will give Him due fear Him because He is worthy of our fear/reverence.

 

[Lizbeth]

With our sins removed, we have no impediment to trust God fully, and it is faith that allows us to walk in the Spirit. Grace is God's gift to us, which opens the door for us to leave sin.

Much love!

Amen....forgiveness in Matt. 18 is equated to loosing and not forgiving is equated to binding (for the purpose of discipline - like when someone in the church is sinning and refuses to repent they are to be disfellowshipped and not forgiven at that time which has the effect of binding the person...ie, handing them over to Satan for the destruction/discipline of the flesh....I think until they are sick enough of the bondage and ready to repent). I don't fully understand it, but I believe it also is why the Lord forgiving our sins overall looses us from the dominion of sin.

 

[amigo de christo]

I havent' been able to follow and process everything that is being said, but I do believe there are two different kinds of fear being spoken of in scripture.

Heb 12:18-24

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (my brackets: these are old testament saints whose faith was made perfect after the cross through the gospel)

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



1Jo 4:12-19

No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and HIS LOVE HAS BEEN PERFECTED IN US.

By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

And we have KNOWN AND BELIEVED the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

We love Him because He first loved us.

Jhn 3:16
For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Rom 8:15

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.



Heb 4:14-16

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly (ie, without fear) unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Working out our salvation with fear and trembling is not talking about the carnal visceral fear per se that the Israelites lived with under the Law………..it is talking about the kind of fear that knows the supremacy and greatness of God and that causes us to humble ourselves before Him and makes us take Him and his word very seriously, with sincerity. It means not taking Him lightly, as the word mentions somewhere. And it means putting Him first.

Being perfected in love, I believe is what happens when we come to faith in Christ. But also at the same time, on another level, as we are being trained up and grow like children we do fear God's displeasure and consequences if we should sin.

never forget that if one follows and believes in a false gospel that one cannot see .
inclusvism IS A FALSE GOPSEL . as i am sure you know but do remember who has taught it and who also supports such a man .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. And these also:

Deu 32:15
But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Rom 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

I get a sense that "lightly" means not taking the Lord seriously...taking Him or His grace for granted....being dismissive of His discipline etc. If we take Him seriously we will give Him due fear Him because He is worthy of our fear/reverence.

Allow me to leave a reminder to all who bring another gospel .
LET THEM be accursed .
And this is why i will expose them TILL they repent of that .
HE or she who brings and or supports a false g ospel .
I dont even try and dialgoue with them about points .
I expose them and there is no getting along with such for me .
I WONT even bid them god speed either .
i wont even try and make deals with such .
THIS is my deal to any who bring a false gopsel ,
REPENT asap . or prepare to be exposed so long as i am here to do so .
OH i can dialgoue with those who teach a pre , mid , post trib
But unto all who bring a false gospel , AND WOE THE INCLUSVE ONE IS ,
they get the Exposed warning and to beware such by ME .
Just a friendly reminder to us all . No false gospel gonna be allowed on my watch
and any who brings such WILL BE continaully exposed on my watch .
so with that reminder in mind , THIS entire site needs to beware of epi and those who suppport him
or any who supports that inclusivity . IT a false gospel that in no way honors the SON , thus not the FATHER
but only calls GOD a liar . Have a blessed day sister . and keep on pointing to JESUS and the dire
reminder that without beleiving on HIM , without faith in HIM , ITS ALL IN VAIN.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

In the deepest part of the believer, in the inner man, in his spirit, that is where the desire to do the will of God is. That is where transformation has occurred. The struggle with the desire to sin (a.k.a. temptation) comes from the outer man, the flesh. That’s because the body of flesh has yet to be redeemed.

I'm talking about "the flesh" as Paul did, the carnal nature/the old man, not the body. Romans 7:5-6; Romans 6:5-7; Romans 8:9.

I'm not wrong. Temptation is the desire to sin. Temptation is the desire to sin. That doesn't go away when you get born again. What happens when you get born again is you have power to resist it.

"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." I'm not tempted because my "desire" lines up with God's will, so I can't be enticed to sin. This is true of all born again of the Spirit believers who continuously abide in Him.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No I have to disagree. Grace includes power too, but also it does cover our sins (inadvertent) , in the sense that the Lord will graciously overlook and not judge them.

Rom 4:4

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

What you are quoting is the Old Covenant that David was under. Then sin was covered but remains. In the New Covenant sin is taken away. There is a huge difference. Paul's teaching on the difference between the Old Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant of the Spirit was eight chapters long from Romans 1 through Romans 8. You are quoting from the middle of his teaching in chapter 4 and it doesn't apply to us. What does apply to us is Romans 6, Romans 7:5-6, and Romans 8. Write those down. Remember also that verses from Romans 7:14-25 are still the Old Covenant and do not apply to us no matter how popular they seem and are even quoted in sermons by ignoramuses.

 

[Lizbeth]

I'm talking about "the flesh" as Paul did, the carnal nature/the old man, not the body. Romans 7:5-6; Romans 6:5-7; Romans 8:9.



"But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." I'm not tempted because my "desire" lines up with God's will, so I can't be enticed to sin. This is true of all born again of the Spirit believers who continuously abide in Him.

"Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall."...........Is there ever a time when the child of God won't need humility and holy fear? Paul never considered that he had attained, until his race was actually over. He knew of nothing against himself, and yet stated that he was not by that exonerated....He who judges all of us is the LORD. We only know ourselves in part.....but the Lord knows and sees much more than we are aware of....the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall."...........Is there ever a time when the child of God won't need humility and holy fear? Paul never considered that he had attained, until his race was actually over. He knew of nothing against himself, and yet stated that he was not by that exonerated....He who judges all of us is the LORD. We only know ourselves in part.....but the Lord knows and sees much more than we are aware of....the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it?

I've got plenty of the fear of the Lord. That is why I don't get tempted.

 

[David1701]

Until the outer man sin nature is crucified. Then the inner man takes on the covering power of Christ to walk in His resurrection life. No longer I but Christ. No more sin...just rest, peace and glory.

Our flesh is our physical body. It will be resurrected when the Lord returns for us.

Rom. 8:10,11 (W.E.B.)
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Lizbeth]

What you are quoting is the Old Covenant that David was under. Then sin was covered but remains. In the New Covenant sin is taken away. There is a huge difference. Paul's teaching on the difference between the Old Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant of the Spirit was eight chapters long from Romans 1 through Romans 8. You are quoting from the middle of his teaching in chapter 4 and it doesn't apply to us.

Grace doesn't' apply to us? Oh my. Paul is reiterating what the old testament says and applying it to the GOSPEL. He is expounding the gospel of faith and grace. Abraham the father of many nations...that's us Gentiles..

I'm afraid some people around here are thinking way too much and talking themselves out of the very GOSPEL. Oh dear.

 

[David1701]

When you understand that desire is an impulse of the flesh you can understand how Jesus, just like everyone else, was tempted. When a man, for example, sees a scantily clad attractive woman other than his wife, desire rises up in the flesh. It is a biological response. That's what it means to be tempted. That is not a sin. Entertaining it in the mind is. Acting on it most certainly is.

That is an example of re-defining sin. The temptation is the scantily clad woman; the sin is the lustful response.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Grace doesn't' apply to us? Oh my. Paul is reiterating what the old testament says and applying it to the GOSPEL. He is expounding the gospel of faith and grace. Abraham the father of many nations...that's us Gentiles..

I'm afraid some people around here are thinking way too much and talking themselves out of the very GOSPEL. Oh dear.

Grace applies to us, but not the definition of a license to sin the church has adopted. It is the power of God to not sin. From what I've seen, you hold to the license to sin heresy.

Study to show yourself approved.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

That is an example of re-defining sin. The temptation is the scantily clad woman; the sin is the lustful response.

It is not a sin to recognize that a woman is sexually attractive. That is a natural biological function of the flesh. The temptation is to fulfill that desire in an unlawful way. Jesus was tempted in all ways just as we are. He was confronted with the desire to fulfill the desires of the flesh in unlawful ways just as we are.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I've got plenty of the fear of the Lord. That is why I don't get tempted.

No, that is why you can turn away from temptation.

Being in Christ does not mean, for example, that a person no longer finds the opposite sex attractive and appealing. Or that you no longer have an appetite for bread. It means you have the power to not satisfy those appetites in an ungodly way.