Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

Yet another poster here bought Acts up and made a valid point:-
Why did everyone sell everything if it is not a requirement to inherit/enter eternal life ?

Acts 2
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4
32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

It was purely voluntary and they could have done whatever they wanted with the money they received from the sale of their property.

Acts 5:4
4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal?

Not only is it impractical, if not foolish, to sell 'everything' you have unless you are prepared and willing to do that, there is no command in the law to sell everything you own. In regard to the rich young man, I'm of the opinion that Jesus was using hyperbole to show him that despite the fact that he kept the 10 Commandments, that's not all that the law requires. He had not kept the law that commands the people of God to be generous to the needy.

Deuteronomy 15:7-11
7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

To have the righteousness required to enter into eternal life in the kingdom of God on the basis of works, you can't keep some of God's commandments some of the time. You must keep all of them, all of the time. That's why no one can get into the kingdom of God on that basis. That doesn't mean believers don't have to keep God's commandments. It means that is not the basis upon which we are justified. It is our faith in God for the forgiveness of sin by which we are justified. The forgiveness of God is what makes us righteous in God's sight, in spite of the fact that we have not kept all of God's commandments all of the time.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I've got plenty of the fear of the Lord.

Why do you fear the Lord concerning things you claim you cannot do?

That is why I don't get tempted.

Fear of the Lord does not remove temptation. The fear of the Lord is why someone would not cave into temptation.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

What you are quoting is the Old Covenant that David was under. Then sin was covered but remains. In the New Covenant sin is taken away.

You are quoting from the middle of his teaching in chapter 4 and it doesn't apply to us.

The law did not cover/forgive David's sin. The law makes no provision for the forgiveness of murder and adultery, yet he was forgiven. That's what makes Romans 4:6-8 entirely about us. He received the benefit of the eternal grace of God in the complete forgiveness of sin before it was revealed and brought to light in the appearing of Christ.

2 Timothy 1:9-10
9 This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Remember also that verses from Romans 7:14-25 are still the Old Covenant and do not apply to us no matter how popular they seem and are even quoted in sermons by ignoramuses.

Paul's famous struggle with sin in Romans 7 does apply to us because it describes the effort to keep God's commandments apart from the power of the Spirit. Just because a person has the Holy Spirit in salvation doesn't mean they know how to avail themselves of the power of the Spirit to please God.

Romans 7 is a message for, both, people who have turned to the Lord but have yet to be born again, and people who are born again and have the Spirit but have yet to learn about and employ the Spirit within them to rescue them from the temptations and enticements of the flesh. That's why he had to write Romans 8 to the church. Believers have to be educated about this. Believers grow through knowledge.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I'm talking about "the flesh" as Paul did, the carnal nature/the old man, not the body. Romans 7:5-6; Romans 6:5-7; Romans 8:9.

May I direct your attention to this post:

Rom. 8:10-14 (W.E.B.)
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

As you can see, it is very clear that Paul is using "flesh" and "body" interchangeably here, so that it is known to everyone who reads it that they are the same thing, in this context.

As I say, your misunderstanding stems from the unfortunate use of 'sin nature' for 'flesh' propagated in the church by early editions of the NIV. My most cherished possession is my 1978 version of the NIV, so I'm not knocking the NIV. We just have to be aware of where it has provided occasion for misunderstanding. I'm not opposed to the use of the phrase, as long as it is understood what it means.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I'm not tempted because my "desire" lines up with God's will, so I can't be enticed to sin. This is true of all born again of the Spirit believers who continuously abide in Him.

Abiding in him does not remove the occasion for temptation. And it does not mean the desire to do God's will will not also be accompanied by the desire of the flesh to be satisfied in ungodly ways (a.k.a 'temptation'). It means you have the power of the Holy Spirit to submit to God in faith for him to deliver you from the toothless roar of the flesh and the devil.

James 4:7
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 Peter 5:8-9
8Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith

 

[Marvelloustime]

Allow me to leave a reminder to all who bring another gospel .
LET THEM be accursed .
And this is why i will expose them TILL they repent of that .
HE or she who brings and or supports a false g ospel .
I dont even try and dialgoue with them about points .
I expose them and there is no getting along with such for me .
I WONT even bid them god speed either .
i wont even try and make deals with such .
THIS is my deal to any who bring a false gopsel ,
REPENT asap . or prepare to be exposed so long as i am here to do so .
OH i can dialgoue with those who teach a pre , mid , post trib
But unto all who bring a false gospel , AND WOE THE INCLUSVE ONE IS ,
they get the Exposed warning and to beware such by ME .
Just a friendly reminder to us all . No false gospel gonna be allowed on my watch
and any who brings such WILL BE continaully exposed on my watch .
so with that reminder in mind , THIS entire site needs to beware of epi and those who suppport him
or any who supports that inclusivity . IT a false gospel that in no way honors the SON , thus not the FATHER
but only calls GOD a liar . Have a blessed day sister . and keep on pointing to JESUS and the dire
reminder that without beleiving on HIM , without faith in HIM , ITS ALL IN VAIN.

@amigo de christo

 

[Episkopos]

Rom. 8:10-14 (W.E.B.)
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

As you can see, it is very clear that Paul is using "flesh" and "body" interchangeably here, so that it is known to everyone who reads it that they are the same thing, in this context.

You are missing the point here. The power of the flesh works through the body just like the Spirit does. This is a rebuttal of Gnosticism which believes that the body is unimportant. But whether we are led by the flesh or the Spirit our bodies are animated by these forces so that we act very differently. You can't live "after the body" since both the flesh and the Spirit affect the body. The body is the RECIPIENT of the animation not the originator. The body is animated either by the flesh ...to sinfulness...making it a body of death...or else by the Spirit...to obedience...giving it victory over the flesh and preserving the body.

There is a proper balance to consider.

 

[MostlyConfused]

You are missing the point here. The power of the flesh works through the body just like the Spirit does. This is a rebuttal of Gnosticism which believes that the body is unimportant. But whether we are led by the flesh or the Spirit our bodies are animated by these forces so that we act very differently. You can't live "after the body" since both the flesh and the Spirit affect the body. The body is the RECIPIENT of the animation not the originator. The body is animated either by the flesh ...to sinfulness...making it a body of death...or else by the Spirit...to obedience...giving it victory over the flesh and preserving the body.

There is a proper balance to consider.

You have to consider in also that when led by the flesh you arent acting alone but your flesh is manipulated and influenced by satan and demons who want to keep you bound in that flesh. At least that’s how I’ve seen it.

 

[Episkopos]

You have to consider in also that when led by the flesh you arent acting alone but your flesh is manipulated and influenced by satan and demons who want to keep you bound in that flesh. At least that’s how I’ve seen it.

The one who walks in self-love and self-justification is of the devil to be sure. But one can walk in the power of the flesh and yet still have no confidence in the flesh...hating their own nature. Such are the righteous.

When believers condemn human righteousness in others they condemn themselves because that's all they have for the most part...plus they have not let go of their self-interested love of themselves. So they become worse than an unbeliever because of their false claims....exactly the same bouquet of sins as the Pharisees

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

But whether we are led by the flesh or the Spirit our bodies are animated by these forces so that we act very differently.

Romans 8:6
6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

The flesh and the Spirit are competing for the mind of the believer because that is where 'animation' of the body is motivated.

Galatians 5:17
17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever c you want.

 

[Taken]

Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?​

It is a LACK of Understanding you present.

A Man “IN” Christ …
“IS” Perfected “IN” Christ.

A man “IN” Christ “IS” occupying Christ Jesus’ Sinless Perfected Risen BODY.

A man “IN” Christ “IS” sanctifi-ed.

A “sanctified” man “Means THAT man has become MADE “set apart” FROM Those OF this world who ARE “NOT IN Christ”…

The Sanctified…
*ARE Forgiven, For Having HAD “not believed”.
*ARE Soul (restored), Saved FROM damnation.
*ARE Spirit Re-Born, FROM Gods Seed.
*HAVE Willingly given their Body Unto Death,
FOR, their Heartful (word) testament of Belief IN the Lord God Almighty.
*ARE “Justified”, their name Never be blotted out, FROM Gods Book OF Life.
*ARE “Justified”, their name be Written IN the Lambs Book of Life.
*ARE “Justified”, TO Receive “Gods Holy Spirit of Truth, TO Dwell With and IN them.
*ARE “Justified” For Gods Indwelling Spirit / Light to Cover their sin, (of former and forgiven unbelief) THAT God can no longer SEE or REMEMBER.
*ARE “Justified” For their own body BE Cleansed, IN Jesus’ Blood…PREPARED, for the Day their “OWN” Body Shall be Risen Up…
Glorified / Sinless….
AND…
Their saved soul
AND
Their born again spirit
Returned TO their own glorified Body.
AND
in such, wholly, whole, holy condition Stand Before The Judge Face to Face…
AND
Bend their knee,
Bow Down Before Their Lord,
Worship Him with Great Love and Admiration. and Thankfulness.

Accounted Perfected “IN” Christ Jesus’ Body…
Is NOT a man’s Body having Obtained Perfection.

A man’s Perfect, Sinless, Body Occurs WHEN his Own Body is RAISED Up Glorified.

TWO separate Times “ARE Bodys Raised up Glorified”.

1) Rapture, Before Trib and Wrath From Heaven.
^ Applies TO Those Christ the Lord Has Saved. (For the last 2,000+ years)

2) First Resurrection, After Trib and Wrath From Heaven.
^ Applies TO Those The Lord God Has Saved, From the Beginning to Ending of mankind.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[JustMe]

The one who walks in self-love and self-justification is of the devil to be sure. But one can walk in the power of the flesh and yet still have no confidence in the flesh...hating their own nature. Such are the righteous.

When believers condemn human righteousness in others they condemn themselves because that's all they have for the most part...plus they have not let go of their self-interested love of themselves. So they become worse than an unbeliever because of their false claims....exactly the same bouquet of sins as the Pharisees

I just would like to clarify what you meant here that seems inaccurate and misleading.

The core issue addressed in passages like Romans 2:1 is not that believers lack righteousness, but rather that they are hypocritical by judging others for sins they themselves commit.

• Self-Condemnation via Hypocrisy: When a person judges another for a specific sin, they "condemn themselves" because they "practice the same things." This is a warning against self-righteousness and hypocrisy, not a statement about the inherent righteousness of the believer.
• No Condemnation for Believers: Scripture explicitly states in Romans 8:1 that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus/Yeshua. Believers are not condemned for their sins in the same way unbelievers are; instead, they face discipline or conviction from God, which leads to repentance rather than shame.
• Righteousness Source: The context emphasizes that human righteousness is insufficient and that believers rely on God’s grace and the righteousness of Christ, not their own moral standing, to justify them before God.

In short, the biblical warning is against self-righteous judgment, not against the fact that believers possess only "human righteousness."

And the term "human righteousness" should be used cautiously, with full qualification. especially when applied to believers.

 

[Episkopos]

I just would like to clarify what you meant here that seems inaccurate and misleading.

The core issue addressed in passages like Romans 2:1 is not that believers lack righteousness, but rather that they are hypocritical by judging others for sins they themselves commit.

• Self-Condemnation via Hypocrisy: When a person judges another for a specific sin, they "condemn themselves" because they "practice the same things." This is a warning against self-righteousness and hypocrisy, not a statement about the inherent righteousness of the believer.
• No Condemnation for Believers: Scripture explicitly states in Romans 8:1 that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus/Yeshua. Believers are not condemned for their sins in the same way unbelievers are; instead, they face discipline or conviction from God, which leads to repentance rather than shame.
• Righteousness Source: The context emphasizes that human righteousness is insufficient and that believers rely on God’s grace and the righteousness of Christ, not their own moral standing, to justify them before God.

In short, the biblical warning is against self-righteous judgment, not against the fact that believers possess only "human righteousness."

Self-righteous judgment is what the Pharisees did and many here on the forum also advocate. Their righteousness is LESS than human even as they claim to BE God's righteousness. It isn't possible to be MORE deceived than that.

And the term "human righteousness" should be used cautiously, with full qualification. especially when applied to believers.

Are you saying believers aren't human?

Human righteousness is EVERYWHERE attested to in the bible for those with honesty and reading skills. From Abel to Abraham...to Lot, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Cornelius...etc etc....

 

[Lizbeth]

Explain this statement in the light of what type of sin you could inadvertently commit. It is the statement I mistook for you believing in the license to sin heresy.

"Grace includes power too, but also it does cover our sins (inadvertent), in the sense that the Lord will graciously overlook and not judge them."

Sister, Romans clearly speaks about our sins being covered....that is what is happening when our sins/iniquities not being imputed to us. It is the Lord covering us with his garment as our heavenly husband. Not because we deserve it or have earned it, because we haven't....but to show the greatness, selflessness and loveliness of His mercy, for the glory of His name.

One example of an inadvertent sin might be if a believer hits their thumb with a hammer and blurts out a swear word. Another type of inadvertent sin might be personality flaws or habits that a person isn't even aware that they have.

But nobody should impose our own spiritual experience or walk on others, because every individual soul has an individual race marked out for them, in the will of the Lord. He isn't judging in absolutes....that is clear where it says the last shall be first and the first last, and who has been forgiven much loves much. There's an old saying which says it isn't whether we win or lose, it's how we play the game that counts......well I believe that is true of our walk/battle of faith.....it isn't about "arriving", it's more about how we are running our race that determines the prize. And it so happens that some have an easier battle and others more difficult etc...but God takes everything into account..

When the Israelites entered the Promised Land the Lord said He wouldn't give their enemies into their hands all at once.........lest the wild beasts take over the land....that was and is God's wonderful wise wisdom. Wild beasts speaks to the fallen nature and I believe speaks especially to the wild beast of pride.

I believe it is just necessary for us to be battling our way through....much like it is necessary for a butterfly to battle it's way out of the cocoon otherwise it wouldn't be able to fly. The suffering in our battles helps to purge us.....and battling helps to grow humility in us..... it also teaches us to rely on God not on ourselves.......even mistakes that we make along the way can serve to humble us.....and we can learn from and be strengthened by them. We get to know ourselves in the battling too. These things are all part of God's wisdom for leading us through battles and not just gifting us entire and complete victory without having to do battle.

Yes, I certainly believe that the Lord is able to take away all our sins, problems and shortcomings in an instant if He should so will......all things are possible with God. When I came to faith in Christ He took away some of my sins automatically in the beginning, but not all, and different people have different testimonies. Taking away all our sins and shortcomings automatically in the beginning just isn't how He is working in every individual's life, lest we be spoiled by it and fail to grow in strength and understanding and begin to be proud, etc. Lucifer was given everything......he was apparently just created perfect and had no battles to fight.......and then pride caused him to fall. Pretty sure that was written so we could learn from it.

I consider that each individual is only responsible for their own corner of the battlefield, to follow/obey the Lord as and how HE is leading them on their individual journey and race. Some might be blessed to walk in complete victory and the full stature of Christ in this life others may not. Some may just taste of it. We are each HIS workmanship. I sincerely question that it is an absolute must for everyone, and I believe that presenting it that way, as an absolute, is not being in spirit with it.