"There was a lunar eclipse when Jesus died (Matthew 27:45).
The next such eclipse (from the perspective of Israel) is December 31, 2028.
See also Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, Luke 23:45, Revelation 6:12.
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The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming
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"There was a lunar eclipse when Jesus died (Matthew 27:45).
The next such eclipse (from the perspective of Israel) is December 31, 2028.
See also Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, Luke 23:45, Revelation 6:12.
All that means nothing.
Are you saying Jesus can't come back until December 31, 2028 or some other eclipse?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are not understanding the context of Acts 1:9-11. It does NOT say that Jesus will come back with the same atmospheric conditions as when He left. That is ridiculous. It says He will come in like manner as He left. You are reading far more into it than what is intended in the verse. All that means is that the manner or way in which He left and ascended to heaven was visibly and bodily. So, He will come back in like manner from heaven. Visibly and bodily. There's no reason to read any more into it than that. The reference to a white horse in Revelation 19 has nothing to with Him not coming back in like manner as He left. That's utterly ludicrous. Matthew 24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27) make no mention of a white horse, but you still believe that passage is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21. So, your argument about the white horse is invalid.
So, why would Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) be talking about some other gathering? There's no basis for that belief.
Hello? Are you reading that passage carefully at all? Jesus indicated that people were doing their normal activities right up until the flood came and destroyed them all, right? What does that have to do with "social economical conditions"? Plenty of people do their normal activities even when social economical conditions are poor. How can you not know that? It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with people being spiritually oblivious to the fact that God is angry with them and that His wrath will come down on them. This lines up with 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 where Paul says people in spiritual darkness will be saying "peace and safety" as if they are safe from God's wrath, but then the next thing they know "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape".
Do you think that the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24:30-31 is not the same coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24:39? If not, then how do you think that Matthew 24:37-39 can possibly support the pre-trib rapture theory when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly indicates that Jesus will come AFTER the tribulation of those days?
You don't understand what the tribulation entails. It's not about physical tribulation, it's about spiritual deception, wickedness, apostasy and persecution (Matthew 24:4-14; 23-26, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12). Just as in the days of Noah before the flood people during the days before Jesus comes again will not know what is coming before Christ's wrath comes down upon them when He returns. That is what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:37-39. That passage does not support the pre-trib rapture theory whatsoever.
He is talking about when He comes from heaven and we meet Him in the air, after which we will be with Him forever. Nowhere does that passage indicate that after Jesus leaves heaven He will then turn around and go back there and bring us with Him. Why would He do that? Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven if that's where we were going? No pre-tribs have any answer for that.
LOL...you can make it say whatever you believe. Go for it.
The bottom line is the angels say Jesus return in the same way He left....and Jesus didn't leave on a white horse with the sun and moon not shining and stars falling from heaven. Sorry.
You started with the rude..."Hello? Are you reading that passage carefully at all? " YUP!!!! I read the verses. Dozens of times.
Here's your problem. You said..."Plenty of people do their normal activities even when social economical conditions are poor. " Long sigh......shakes head.....tell me, what do you think the status of the world will be like at the end of the tribulation? PLEASE ANSWER THAT QUESTION. Perhaps I should start a new thread asking you post tribbers that question.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what you are doing. What the text itself indicates is that people literally saw Jesus ascend up towards heaven. That's the manner/way in which He ascended there. Visibly. Bodily. There's no reason to read any more into it than that, but you have to do that in order to keep your imaginary pre-trib theory afloat.
LOL. Again, you're misunderstanding what Him coming back in like manner means. You have to make it mean something else to make it fit your beliefs.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Is it rude to respond like that in response to utterly ridiculous comments? I don't think so. You just need to stop saying ridiculous things that have nothing to do with the context of the passage we're talking about.
This illustrates the problem with pre-tribs. They take all of Revelation literally and cause it to contradict passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and Matthew 24:29-39 that very clearly refer to Christ's return and the rapture occurring AFTER the tribulation, not before. You can't even bring yourself to answer my question about whether you think the coming of the Son of Man in Matthew 24:39 is the same as the coming of the Son of Man described in Matthew 24:30-31. So, do you think they are the same or not? If not, why not? There's no reason why not. If you understand that each verse is referring to the same coming of the Son of Man then it should be clear that it will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29).
Have you ever read 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12? What type of tribulation does Paul describe as occurring before Jesus returns? Global physical tribulation? No. Spiritual tribulation. Unrestrained wickedness and mass apostasy and such. That is my understanding of the tribulation that occurs before Jesus returns. So, our understanding of the tribulation is completely different. Which makes it so that we're not even talking about the same thing when we talk about the tribulation.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
AMEN! I am looking Up and forward to, after God's Great [ Any Moment ] GRACE Departure,
to an Eternity Of His Loving Attribute! = ie:
"That in the ages to come He might shew The Exceeding Riches of His
Grace In His Kindness Toward us Through Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:7 AV)
-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
The return of Jesus with his angels is shown in Revelation 19:11-21.
"Stars falling" (Matthew 24:29) is a meteor shower, this is not unusual.
"Stars falling" (Matthew 24:29) is a meteor shower, this is not unusual.
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If Jesus ascended into heaven in a manner remotely close to the way Jesus is described as returning...they would have written about it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Again, you are adding things to what is written in Acts 1:9-11 that are not there. What does it actually describe? Jesus bodily ascending to heaven with people literally seeing Him ascend with their own eyes. THAT is the manner in which He left. He will return from heaven in like manner. Visibly and bodily. There is no reason at all to read any more into it than that. But, you have to in order to support your doctrine.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I'm adding? Sheeze ...you're the one who adds the requirement of a white horse.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's what I said.
What are you talking about? I have said several times now that the context of Acts 1:9-11 is that Jesus will return from heaven in like manner as He ascended there in the sense that He will descend from heaven visibly and bodily just as He ascended to heaven visibly and bodily. I'm not adding anything beyond that. You are the one doing that by saying that Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't relate to Acts 1:9-11 because that passage doesn't mention Him leaving on a white horse. That is not part of the "like manner" in which He will descend from heaven as He ascended there. The only thing the passage describes is Him ascending to heaven bodily and visibly so He will return bodily and visibly, also.
Besides not leaving on a white horse...Jesus didn't leave in the spectacular way in which He returns in Rev 19.
Secondly, when Jesus left He didn't leave when " sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken" as mentioned in Matt 24.
I'm simply telling you what the bible says...If you don't want to properly apply hermeneutics...then have at it.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
The white horse isn't real, but symbolic.
He ascended in complete victory and authority over lost souls and he will return in complete victory and authority as King of kings to raise them to glorification on the last day.... when the heavens are no more. Simple connective scriptural truths of what happens next as the Gospel is preached to every tribe before the door is shut.
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"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold a WHITE HORSE! He who sat upon it is called faithful and true, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many crowns; and he has a name inscribed, which no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The WORD OF GOD. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on the white horse. " (Revelation 19:11-13)
"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God" (John 1:1).
It seems as though the Lamb of God (John 1:29) will return as the Lion of Judah (Genesis 49:9-10).
He ascended into the sky (Mark 16:19), and he will return the same way, descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).
"Sun darkened" (Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12, Isaiah 13:10) refers to a lunar eclipse. There was a similar lunar eclipse when Jesus was crucified in April 3, 33 A.D. (Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44).
"Lunar" stems from Latin luna= "moon."
"Eclipse" stems from Greek εκλειψις (ekleipsis) = "failure to appear."
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Whether it's literal or symbolic....Jesus didn't leave with the literal or symbolic description presented in Rev 20
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Acts one really gets em going with creativity and bible changes.
It is so nice and beautiful to be in sound doctrine that requires no changes to acts 1, mat 24, mat 25, rev 13, rev 19, the last supper dialogue, and the 2 escape verses.
Whew, what a postrib rapture train wreck.
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