Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[RandyDawson]

Then you better watch out, because I didn't say that, you did. I brought up that he doesn't recognize that Jesus took away our sin, and that Jesus is our sacrifice. Are you a bearer of false witness?

It sure seems like telling someone "This sounds like you've never heard of Jesus Christ!" is claiming that they aren't a Christian.
That's what you said in post #1,501

I'd like to see where I told someone they were not a Christian. Please provide the post number where I told someone they were not a Christian. Thanks.

 

[RandyDawson]

I'm wondering why she can be growing up into the ever-increasing traits of the Spirit and be legitimately born again but I can't.

Well the first error going on here is women trying to be in authority over men by teaching men.
Women need to teach children and other women and let the men be in authority as the scripture teaches.

 

[MostlyConfused]

If the person is in that specific place in their struggle where they know they have to forgive and they try, but the anger and unforgiveness keep coming back up, is that willful sin? Of course it isn’t. And I know you wouldnt tell them that. They agree on what is good but cant DO what they agree is good. They have received the down payment and have come to that place in their struggle where they have not yet moved from but I MUST forgive to oh my gosh I’ve tried for years and I finally see I can’t do it, I am not able to. To tell them they will go to the outer darkness because they are choosing WILLFULLY to continue in sin would not be correct or helpful for them. They would panic and thrash around and just go ANOTHER round of trying very hard to forgive the one who has abused them and then failing. And maybe they would then give up and turn back to the world, thinking: well I’m going to the outer darkness because what He says I must do I can’t do so I may as well stop trying and accept my fate. Or he might say, it’s all a crock and begin to hate God for being so cruel to demand something of him that is impossible for him. Or he might say and begin to teach others that it is impossible to ever stop sinning while here on earth, like Luther came to.
All he needs is to be helped to see that he is right to say it is impossible for him to do it but wrong to not trust that Jesus can do it in him and for him.

I’ll add to this that I read your post, Episkopos, about the specific type of sin of iniquity in one who has received the down payment of the Spirit (and listened to you talk of that in a podcast too) and I understand you to be saying it is to mix righteousness and holiness thereby degrading holiness and to claim to be what you are not. That is the iniquity that the churches teach and that a man must depart from or he will be cast into outer darkness.
That’s not the man I was trying to describe, although he could have picked up some of the teachings and get lost in that for a time. I was trying to see how to help someone stuck in self effort who has just not yet put it together that he is SUPPOSED to finally see he can’t perfect himself BUT that God can and that he has been taught wrongly to settle (after he has worn himself out) for the teaching that it is impossible in this life.
We can get righteousness and holiness all mixed up on our own, even WITHOUT being taught to do it by a church and its’ bad doctrines. My concern is to take care that I don’t bruise a bent reed. I’ll work it out with the Lords‘ help.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It sure seems like telling someone "This sounds like you've never heard of Jesus Christ!" is claiming that they aren't a Christian.
That's what you said in post #1,501

I'd like to see where I told someone they were not a Christian. Please provide the post number where I told someone they were not a Christian. Thanks.

He had been speaking of sinning and no sacrifices to cover them. So what about Jesus? He didn't mention Him who came for that very reason.

As for you telling them they weren't a Christian, you misquoted me and accused me of doing that, when I wasn't the one to bring up anyone's salvation - you did. Are you here trolling, trying to make trouble where none is to be found?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Okay…so then, we still have our flesh, are still able to sin, but that flesh/old man never does do after that any “lawless sin?” Could you explain/define “lawless sin” versus “sin?”

Lawless sin is breaking a Law - It is more than the Ten Commandments, it includes sorcery and teenage rebellion against their parents. What is odd in this day and age is that it doesn't include rape. The man must marry her and never divorce her. He is not stoned to death.

When you say "we still have our flesh, are still able to sin" that is wrong. Romans 8:9 says we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of
God dwells within us. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Jesus.

It really starts in Romans 6:5-7, 17-19 and 22. "5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

An important verse that some disregard as not worth much is "
Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." MC, this is how you "keep yourself" in 1 John 5:18.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Even by your own admission you still sin. But you excuse it as being sin not unto death. But even in your categorizing of sin, you still sin. How can you not see that?

Judge, even those are matured in us until we never stumble. So when did I admit to sinning? And you are right, all that was left were sins not unto death, and Jesus is the judge of when He has finished what He started. After all it has been since 1977 that this process of glorification has been going on in my life. I do know that I will be holy by the time He's done with me, so that I will never stumble.

You might want to wrap your head around the fact that sins unto death - lawlessness - have been removed from your nature, so you may partake of the divine nature of God. What about the gifts of the Spirit. Do you operate in any of those signs and wonders?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well the first error going on here is women trying to be in authority over men by teaching men.
Women need to teach children and other women and let the men be in authority as the scripture teaches.

I have a right to post whatever I like. You don't have to listen. What is sad is trying to find a church where I know less than the pastor. I usually know more. I've been given the office of Teacher by God, Himself. He spoke to me about it in June, 2000. And it is His Spirit that has wiped my mind of all doctrines of man, especially from the Reformation which many of their doctrines are straight from demons. Jesus said of the beginning of the Reformation that their new unscriptural doctrines will cause eternal death.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Lawless sin is breaking a Law - It is more than the Ten Commandments, it includes sorcery and teenage rebellion against their parents. What is odd in this day and age is that it doesn't include rape. The man must marry her and never divorce her. He is not stoned to death.

I disagree, at least a bit, because God also said He gave us some laws through Moses that were not good for us. Jesus also said about the laws for divorce that it was because of the hardness of our hearts that they were given, not because God desired it. Now, that He gave us some laws that were not good for us does not make it true that they are all bad for us and I have seen the spirit of some of them and Jesus Said the LAW and the prophets speak of Him.

Your second paragraph - But you previously said He “takes away lawless sin from our old man” so it appeared to me that you meant the Old man was not yet crucified but only certain sins we were rendered incapable of. I can’t say this gave me a firmer understanding of what it is that you think but thank you for taking the time to try.
As to the verse you give there, I once thought to delve a little bit into the Greek because it seemed to me it might be translated poorly but I forgot to look. I remember at the time that I thought it might refer more to…His WORDS abiding in us more than us abiding in Him. Episkopos might have better understanding of it as he said (not that I understood it) somewhere that we can be in Christ corporately but not personally. (Hope I remember that right). I’ll look into it and think on it some and maybe He will give me understanding on it.

 

[MostlyConfused]

At a quick first glance I’m intrigued by how Greek seems to sometimes say “the flesh“ and then use it in an interchangeable way with “the error” as if you could say either “if you sow to the flesh” or “if you sow to the error…”That’s interesting.
Ill have to wait for my sleep fog to clear before concentrating on it.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Gods mercy dont reject BELEIF ON JESUS epi . You are only fooling yourself
and those who desire to beleive this inclusivity madness .
THE SHEEP you nor they WILL EVER decieve .
SO guess you will have to pray hard and feverent to your inclusive god
TO unleash the next phase . But do know this epi , that god cannot save you , it has d ecieved you
and all who do enter into its convenant .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

what many do not seem to realize is
Epi and those incluisivains BRING US A FALSE GOPSEL . He , as in epi , has not only
came after me for my reminders ONE MUST FIRST BELIEVE IN JESUS or its all in vain .
THE MAN came after me for preaching to AN ATHIEST of his dire need to repent and BELEIVE ON JESUS .
EPI called it religious ext remism . SOON to even preach the gospel
will not only be seen as relig oius extremism , by the false religoins and a heap of christendom .
FRIEND IT WILL BE AGAISNT the law to do so by this all inclusive god and it will
enforce this law by means of a powerful AI image speaking , digital system . one in wh ich
if one does not comply then he or she no buy .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

just remember one thing my f riend .
How sincere and grave the first t rue men were .
Paul would not allow SIN to even remain being praticed or supported in any church or house .
Dont let my gravity concern you that i am too grave or etc .
no sir .
I aint stupied enough to compare my self next to paul or any man .
BUT beleive you me , i am as a puppy dog and kitten compared to how they dealt with sin or
even with those who tried to lead anyone , including the deputy away from the faith .
But i am praying to GOD for utterance to do so . The warnings have to increase . this generation is in dire trouble .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

I need to warn you . and warn you i will .
no ma tter if in short time it causes me to be banned from this place .
THE MAN you are conversing with
YES epi .
Has went after me non stop for reminding us all that one must FIRST bELIEVE on JESUS
or its all in vain .
HE has went after me for also reminding an ATHEIST of the dire need to repent and beleive
ON JESUS . HE called it religous extremism .
Not only does he beleive its not necessary to preach the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS
oh my HE even sees it as religious extremism to DO SO . HE IS TOP inclusivain . And i long ago
learned all about that anti christ mess .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

the new way of life does not justify the old ways of the old man and his sin or any sin .
WHY am i seeing rainbows in our churches .
WHY am i seeing an all incluisive god in our churches .
WHY am i seeing more and more run to the peace of anti christ .
SOMETHING is dead wrong marky mark . And while it may give good f eelings and vibrations
IT IS OF THE DEVIL .
Something is dead wrong my friend . the love of a harlot has infiltrated under the guise it is the love of GOD .
THAT is how it all began .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

you ask many questions my friend . and while its okay to ask questions
You have not yet asked the right question , the very question that you truly need to ask my friend .
Even a pa rrot can quote truth verbatum . But do ya really think the parrot
even BELEIVES that which it mimics .
You NEED to ask the r ight question . but in order to do so
I HIGHLY suggest you return to the pages of that bible.
And you start reading THAT BOOK again . You read about JESUS in the four gospels
YOU read about the acts of the apostels
You read their let ters , to include what paul wrote . romans , both letters to the corinthians
his letter to the galations and ephesians , his le tter to both the colossians and phillipains
His letters to the church of the thessalonians , both letters to timothy , the letter to titus
and even the letter to philemon and the house o archippus etc .
Read the letter called hebrews , read the letter from james , both letters from peter
all three letters from john
and the letter of jude .
THEN read the rev elation given to John .
And i will give you a question you need to ask yourself
WHILE you read those letters . ITS tied into the question you really need to be asking .
WHILE reading them four gospels , while reading the book of acts and all the letters of the apost els
and do take heed to the message given to the seven churches s,
Ask yourself what was their approach towards sin , towards unbelief , what and who DID they preach
and how did they respond to those who rejected and how did they respond to those who tried to lead folks away
from the faith . You seem always so willing to hear from God about what to read and etc
TIME YOU READ THAT BIBLE . TIME to love those words . TIME to love that GOD , THAT CHRIST .

@amigo de christo

 

[MostlyConfused]

Yeah, I did my delve. I just have to see it not as a scholar and more in way of an overall feel when I decide to jump into a different language that something was originally said in. It has always been that way and I don’t know why. I also know that probably sounds wrong to a language scholar who works in more of a scribe like fashion, but I can’t change it. I’m not meant to be a precise scholar of a language. So I can’t really convey all I felt/sensed/grasped except I can say this - it seems more is being said in 8:9 than a down payment or taste or sample of the Spirit and is something more of an “inhabiting into” us and dwelling there substantially.

Another thing that intrigued me though was how when what is translated in English as living to the flesh, the word down is included in Greek, like…if we are living down into the flesh we are dying. ”Into” seems important both ways. As if we can live down into our flesh and be dying or live into the Spirit.

Thats all I can try to convey. Not a real help to anyone but me.

 

[Episkopos]

Well the first error going on here is women trying to be in authority over men by teaching men.
Women need to teach children and other women and let the men be in authority as the scripture teaches.

What are you doing on a woman's thread?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I disagree, at least a bit, because God also said He gave us some laws through Moses that were not good for us. Jesus also said about the laws for divorce that it was because of the hardness of our hearts that they were given, not because God desired it. Now, that He gave us some laws that were not good for us does not make it true that they are all bad for us and I have seen the spirit of some of them and Jesus Said the LAW and the prophets speak of Him.

MC, just as there are different types of sin, there were different types of laws. The ceremonial laws of Leviticus 23 were fulfilled by Jesus, and were for the Jews only as a nation. As for the marriage laws, I keep them. The food laws have been fulfilled, and we can eat all meats with blood in them, and we are to thank God for them. The unclean meats represented the Gentiles, and God cleansed them and told Peter they were clean.

Your second paragraph - But you previously said He “takes away lawless sin from our old man” so it appeared to me that you meant the Old man was not yet crucified but only certain sins we were rendered incapable of. I can’t say this gave me a firmer understanding of what it is that you think but thank you for taking the time to try.
As to the verse you give there, I once thought to delve a little bit into the Greek because it seemed to me it might be translated poorly but I forgot to look. I remember at the time that I thought it might refer more to…His WORDS abiding in us more than us abiding in Him. Episkopos might have better understanding of it as he said (not that I understood it) somewhere that we can be in Christ corporately but not personally. (Hope I remember that right). I’ll look into it and think on it some and maybe He will give me understanding on it.

Epi and I agree on many things, but not all.

The old man is our sin nature. When Adam willfully sinned against God and obeyed the devil through Eve his spirit died, and all his descendants were born with a sin nature, instead of a clean nature Adam was created with. What we still have is free will. When we are born again of the Spirit, our spirit is born again, and the laws of God are written on our hearts according to the prophecies. Now, instead of our sin nature being in opposition to God's laws, our clean nature is aligned with God's laws and they are part of us. We don't commit them because when born again we love what God loves, and hate what God hates.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

There is a lot more, so keep asking questions. BTW, "body of sin" is not our physical body, but the whole of our sins. Like the Beatles catalogue/body of works.

 

[RandyDawson]

What are you doing on a woman's thread?

I was about to ask you the same thing.

I typically don't look to see what someone's gender is when posting in a conversation.
But once it becomes obvious that a woman is trying to be in authority over men by teaching men, I ignore them.

 

[Lambano]

I typically don't look to see what someone's gender is when posting in a conversation.
But once it becomes obvious that a woman is trying to be in authority over men by teaching men, I ignore them.

And if a woman has wisdom, experience, and knowledge that you do not have, would you prefer to remain ignorant?