Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[GodsGrace]

I agree. The RCC is wrong.....they are not saved by those things. I think you might have misunderstood my post...? Only true FAITH in Christ can save....faith which is not of our own but is the gift of God.

Lizbeth,,,
You did not understand my post to you.
You are not properly representing the CC.
They also teach faith in Jesus....
faith is a gift from God and not something that man can create on his own.

Sacraments, by themselves, do not save.
What I said was that IF you were correct in your representation of what the CC teaches,,,
then ALL Catholics would be saved...but they are not.

Yes I believe it did. It restored the gospel, which is faith in Christ...the necessity of being born again (begotten of the Holy Spirit) through faith, which Jesus spoke of. Which is a real lived (and ongoing) experience, not a "sacrament".

I agree with the rest of what you stated,
and on most posts of yours that I read.

 

[Moontan13]

Yes, we need to stop sinning and go on to perfection. It's in Scripture for those willing to read it without any blinders on.

Let me refer you to Francois Fenelon who described it in his book "Christian Perfection". AW Tozer loved this guy. It's not living without sin, but walking in the constant knowledge of God's presence. Omnipresent and Omniscient. There is nothing you can tell God that he doesn't already know. Why pray then? Because He tells us to pray without ceasing. Why? Because He does. There things we just cannot know.

 

[GodsGrace]

The CC does know the difference between mortal sins and venial sins, and the Reformation should have kept up that knowledge, but didn't. I looked up John Wesley, who fought against Calvinism, and asked if he knew there was a difference. Here is what it said:

Yes, John Wesley distinguished between sins unto death and sins not unto death. He viewed sins not unto death as those that are still open to repentance and forgiveness, while sins unto death represent a final rejection of grace and a state of unrepentance.

This is not how I see them taking the whole Bible into consideration. How would you say the CC describes mortal sins and venial sins. AI says,

The Catholic Church distinguishes between mortal sins, which are grave offenses that sever one's relationship with God, and venial sins, which are less serious and do not break this relationship. Mortal sins require full knowledge and consent, while venial sins can weaken one's spiritual state without completely separating them from God's grace.

Understanding Mortal and Venial Sins​

The distinction between these two types of sin is fundamental in Catholic teaching.

• Mortal Sin — A serious sin that results in the loss of grace and separation from God; it requires three conditions: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent.
• Venial Sin — A less serious sin that does not sever one's relationship with God; it can weaken one's spiritual state but is forgivable through acts of contrition.
• Consequences — Mortal sins lead to eternal separation from God if unrepented, while venial sins can be forgiven through prayer and good works.
• Scriptural Basis — The distinction is rooted in Scripture, notably in St. Paul's writings, which outline the differences in severity.

I wouldn't be able to add to the above...it seems very complete to me.

I'll add some paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in case anyone is interested.

Paragraph:
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." 131


1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." 132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.


1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.


Then there is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is the only sin that cannot be forgiven:

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." 136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. 137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Set free is you never sin again.

No being set free from sin does not mean you never sin again.

Romans 6:6-7,12
6... our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires

As you can see, being freed from sin means being freed from the power of sin to make you sin, not free from the ability to sin. And because that's true - that you don't have to submit to sin - don't let sin reign in your body. "Do not let sin reign" shows that you are still able to sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Are you perfect? Or don't you care about the sins you commit, because they are all forgiven…

I am like you. I am not perfect in behavior all of the time, because, like you, I am still in unredeemed flesh.

And I care about sin because it is destructive. It hurts me, and it hurts other people. And it cuts me off from fellowship with God. That is why I seek to not sin. I'm way past fear of eternal judgment as the primary motivation for not sinning. Love being the motivation for obedience to God's commands, not fear of eternal damnation, is the mature state God has brought me to, and the state he will bring all his children to.

1 John 4:18
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

I'm not special. God is great. It's his plan, his purpose, not my greatness. It is predestined that all believers be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

...which is not free to sin.

'Free to sin' is not the argument.
That is the argument of an unbeliever who has yet to be born of the Spirit.

It is free from sin.

We are free to not sin, not free from the ability to sin. Romans 6:12 does not say "sin cannot reign in you", it says "do not let sin reign."

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Actually, it does. 1 John 5:16. He says if you see someone sinning, pray for them. He is careful to then say he doesn’t mean to pray for someone committing a sin unto death. So he makes a distinction between sin and sin unto death.

She is well aware of the ONE sin that is unto death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No being set free from sin does not mean you never sin again.

Romans 6:6-7,12
6... our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires

As you can see, being freed from sin means being freed from the power of sin to make you sin, not free from the ability to sin. And because that's true - that you don't have to submit to sin - don't let sin reign in your body. "Do not let sin reign" shows that you are still able to sin.

I read this verse another way. I've never seen you obey Paul and reckon yourself dead to sin. In fact, you didn't even quote it, so you're avoiding obeying.

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

I am like you. I am not perfect in behavior all of the time, because, like you, I am still in unredeemed flesh.

You just quoted a doctrine of demons if you believe you will always sin until after you die and receive a new body. You also believe all sin is lawlessness. No, because then all sin is unto death, and there are sins not unto death, like judging someone is listening to evil spirits. I've never seen anyone who is a slave of righteousness blame it on evil spirits. You committed a sin not unto death with your judgement. You are just terribly mistaken.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

She is well aware of the ONE sin that is unto death.

There's more than one. All willful lawlessness is unto death.