Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[GodsGrace]

I agree. The RCC is wrong.....they are not saved by those things. I think you might have misunderstood my post...? Only true FAITH in Christ can save....faith which is not of our own but is the gift of God.

Lizbeth,,,
You did not understand my post to you.
You are not properly representing the CC.
They also teach faith in Jesus....
faith is a gift from God and not something that man can create on his own.

Sacraments, by themselves, do not save.
What I said was that IF you were correct in your representation of what the CC teaches,,,
then ALL Catholics would be saved...but they are not.

Yes I believe it did. It restored the gospel, which is faith in Christ...the necessity of being born again (begotten of the Holy Spirit) through faith, which Jesus spoke of. Which is a real lived (and ongoing) experience, not a "sacrament".

I agree with the rest of what you stated,
and on most posts of yours that I read.

 

[Moontan13]

Yes, we need to stop sinning and go on to perfection. It's in Scripture for those willing to read it without any blinders on.

Let me refer you to Francois Fenelon who described it in his book "Christian Perfection". AW Tozer loved this guy. It's not living without sin, but walking in the constant knowledge of God's presence. Omnipresent and Omniscient. There is nothing you can tell God that he doesn't already know. Why pray then? Because He tells us to pray without ceasing. Why? Because He does. There things we just cannot know.

 

[GodsGrace]

The CC does know the difference between mortal sins and venial sins, and the Reformation should have kept up that knowledge, but didn't. I looked up John Wesley, who fought against Calvinism, and asked if he knew there was a difference. Here is what it said:

Yes, John Wesley distinguished between sins unto death and sins not unto death. He viewed sins not unto death as those that are still open to repentance and forgiveness, while sins unto death represent a final rejection of grace and a state of unrepentance.

This is not how I see them taking the whole Bible into consideration. How would you say the CC describes mortal sins and venial sins. AI says,

The Catholic Church distinguishes between mortal sins, which are grave offenses that sever one's relationship with God, and venial sins, which are less serious and do not break this relationship. Mortal sins require full knowledge and consent, while venial sins can weaken one's spiritual state without completely separating them from God's grace.

Understanding Mortal and Venial Sins​

The distinction between these two types of sin is fundamental in Catholic teaching.

• Mortal Sin — A serious sin that results in the loss of grace and separation from God; it requires three conditions: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent.
• Venial Sin — A less serious sin that does not sever one's relationship with God; it can weaken one's spiritual state but is forgivable through acts of contrition.
• Consequences — Mortal sins lead to eternal separation from God if unrepented, while venial sins can be forgiven through prayer and good works.
• Scriptural Basis — The distinction is rooted in Scripture, notably in St. Paul's writings, which outline the differences in severity.

I wouldn't be able to add to the above...it seems very complete to me.

I'll add some paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church in case anyone is interested.

Paragraph:
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." 131


1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." 132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.


1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.


Then there is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is the only sin that cannot be forgiven:

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." 136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. 137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Set free is you never sin again.

No being set free from sin does not mean you never sin again.

Romans 6:6-7,12
6... our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires

As you can see, being freed from sin means being freed from the power of sin to make you sin, not free from the ability to sin. And because that's true - that you don't have to submit to sin - don't let sin reign in your body. "Do not let sin reign" shows that you are still able to sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Are you perfect? Or don't you care about the sins you commit, because they are all forgiven…

I am like you. I am not perfect in behavior all of the time, because, like you, I am still in unredeemed flesh.

And I care about sin because it is destructive. It hurts me, and it hurts other people. And it cuts me off from fellowship with God. That is why I seek to not sin. I'm way past fear of eternal judgment as the primary motivation for not sinning. Love being the motivation for obedience to God's commands, not fear of eternal damnation, is the mature state God has brought me to, and the state he will bring all his children to.

1 John 4:18
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

I'm not special. God is great. It's his plan, his purpose, not my greatness. It is predestined that all believers be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

...which is not free to sin.

'Free to sin' is not the argument.
That is the argument of an unbeliever who has yet to be born of the Spirit.

It is free from sin.

We are free to not sin, not free from the ability to sin. Romans 6:12 does not say "sin cannot reign in you", it says "do not let sin reign."

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Actually, it does. 1 John 5:16. He says if you see someone sinning, pray for them. He is careful to then say he doesn’t mean to pray for someone committing a sin unto death. So he makes a distinction between sin and sin unto death.

She is well aware of the ONE sin that is unto death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No being set free from sin does not mean you never sin again.

Romans 6:6-7,12
6... our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires

As you can see, being freed from sin means being freed from the power of sin to make you sin, not free from the ability to sin. And because that's true - that you don't have to submit to sin - don't let sin reign in your body. "Do not let sin reign" shows that you are still able to sin.

I read this verse another way. I've never seen you obey Paul and reckon yourself dead to sin. In fact, you didn't even quote it, so you're avoiding obeying.

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

I am like you. I am not perfect in behavior all of the time, because, like you, I am still in unredeemed flesh.

You just quoted a doctrine of demons if you believe you will always sin until after you die and receive a new body. You also believe all sin is lawlessness. No, because then all sin is unto death, and there are sins not unto death, like judging someone is listening to evil spirits. I've never seen anyone who is a slave of righteousness blame it on evil spirits. You committed a sin not unto death with your judgement. You are just terribly mistaken.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

She is well aware of the ONE sin that is unto death.

There's more than one. All willful lawlessness is unto death.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

All willful lawlessness is unto death.

Finally, you understand! Sin is sin!

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You also believe all sin is lawlessness.

Yes, because 1 John 3:4 says so.

"sin is lawlessness."

That's what it says. You can't change that.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Finally, you understand! Sin is sin!

Not all sin is lawlessness, except to you. But you are wrong. No one walking in the Spirit commits lawlessness, even once, so the unlawful addition of "practice" to go with the false doctrines of the Reformation is added, when nothing can be added to God's Word.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amen sister. I have been OSAS most of my life. When I came here I was already doubting OSAS for a couple of years. A few intense threads here made me NOSAS. Nevertheless I believe the very vast majority of true born of God will endure to end.

Aside of King Solomon Paul mentions at least 3 people whose faith led shipwreck, John mentions people who left and there is Judas... chosen not only to fulfill the Scriptures by the foreknowledge of God but also IMO set as an example of NOSAS. The privilege of chosen being in the inner circle of Jesus, hearing everything Jesus said, seeing all Jesus miracles, notable performing miracles himself when Jesus sent out the twelve, it begs the question --> what went wrong in that head.

Actually I think OSAS for some can be dangerous, thinking they are untouchable.

Paul wrote of a falling away that would happen. And Israel herself fell away........to the point where we see the Spirit of the Lord departing the temple (Ichabod). We are God's temple now, individually as well as corporately.....Israel in scripture serves as an allegory of the church........she is an ensample and warning to the church. There are so many scriptures that warn against falling away, and we have to know the Lord doesn't lie and doesn't waste His breath saying things in His word for no reason.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, because 1 John 3:4 says so.

"sin is lawlessness."

That's what it says. You can't change that.

I'm not trying to change it. It is only the context of that chapter, but it is the type of sin that will send a person to hell. Jesus takes away all sin unto death from our nature bringing us to eternal life if we endure to the end, and also so we may partake of the divine nature of God. Then the lesser imperfections such as you falsely judging me to be listening to a demon is cleansed from you, as you did it in ignorance unintentionally. That is a sin not unto death. It is not lawlessness. Bearing false witness is close, but a lie. You didn't lie, just were mistaken, and sinned unintentionally. Unfortunately, you don't know the truth when you hear it, because Calvinism brainwashes a person and you can't tell night from day. Demons make you blaspheme the Holy Spirit that is in me. Calvinism is dangerous and Jesus said of it, "you have a reputation that you are alive, but you are dead." That's because it is mostly doctrines of demons. It feeds itching ears, grabbing at doctrines like OSAS and no free will. John Calvin was a murderer. Now, THAT is lawlessness!

 

[Lizbeth]

Actually, it does. 1 John 5:16. He says if you see someone sinning, pray for them. He is careful to then say he doesn’t mean to pray for someone committing a sin unto death. So he makes a distinction between sin and sin unto death.
1CL is difficult for me to understand and agree with a lot of the time, but I’m fairly certain this is what she talks about a lot, that distinction.

I'm talking about extra-biblical terminology in general........when doctrine gets enshrined in extra biblical terminology it always seems to miss the mark in some way, from what I've seen. Carnal mind is the reason, I believe.

Yes I understand 1 John 5:16 is where she is getting this from. But that verse speaks of "a" sin leading to death and not to pray for "it". We need to look at other scriptures. Eg, Jesus Himself said that all sins may be forgiven man, except for the one sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. For me, that alone clinches it. And we also have an example of a man having his father's wife in Corinthians who was later restored....a sin punishable by death under the Law.

(I also don't agree where she says that all of the major sins like adultery, murder, stealing etc are necessarily wilful.....people can be tempted in the spur of the moment and react instinctively....the flesh can get the upper hand. That is why we always need to be sober and alert.....and take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall. )

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth,,,
You did not understand my post to you.
You are not properly representing the CC.
They also teach faith in Jesus....
faith is a gift from God and not something that man can create on his own.

Sacraments, by themselves, do not save.
What I said was that IF you were correct in your representation of what the CC teaches,,,
then ALL Catholics would be saved...but they are not.


I agree with the rest of what you stated,
and on most posts of yours that I read.

I think we are getting our wires crossed.

It doesn't do the Catholic church any good to "preach" faith in Jesus while they also teach that the sacraments are necessary for salvation at the same time. For instance they believe that one is saved by simply being baptized and by having communion. They believe that simply by undergoing the sacrament of "confirmation" one receives the Holy Spirit. Faith in Jesus takes second place and is even absent in the vast majority of cases. Most priests don't know the Lord themselves so they are in darkness and can't tell the difference. Mental belief of the carnal mind is not faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul wrote of a falling away that would happen. And Israel herself fell away........to the point where we see the Spirit of the Lord departing the temple (Ichabod). We are God's temple now, individually as well as corporately.....Israel in scripture serves as an allegory of the church........she is an ensample and warning to the church. There are so many scriptures that warn against falling away, and we have to know the Lord doesn't lie and doesn't waste His breath saying things in His word for no reason.

And the church has fallen away in the very same way that Israel did. We are without excuse because we have their example......and we read how God sees it. The temple is indeed us....but we have defiled these temples of ours with idols....the idols of our own salvation and forgiveness. People will flock to whatever benefits their own self-love. People read the gospels with a veil over their eyes....the veil of ego and self-interest. God is selfless and His people are also selfless, or, in the end, they are not His people. Before any blessing comes a warning.

But unbelief persists.

The church has fallen away from the living God in 2 ways.

1. The church has forsaken holiness....turning a vital connection to God in the present to some future accomplishment...even claiming to have something they don't have. So the lie persists. Being naked blind and wretched in the true spiritual state even as these claim to be rich and in need of nothing.

2. The church has abandoned righteousness. People turn to judgmentalism, bigotry, and extremism in the idea that God is like that. Only a counterfeit Jesus resembles the kind of image being produced. Jesus is radical but not extremist. He is balanced. He loves the poor in spirit and the meek, the defenseless, the oppressed. It just so happens that where the rich and spoiled counterfeit church resides, there is lack of seeing how people in poor countries live.


No extreme view can represent God. Neither the lefties or the righties promote anything but their own agendas. And God will visit these and treat them according to their own ways....in an extreme way.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lutherans don't believe in OSAS. I didn't know, so looked it up. I also asked google, who coined the phrase OSAS, and it said, John Calvin.

The man who had his stepmother it says in 2 Corinthians that repentance leads to salvation, so it is possible he wasn't born again yet, but it seems to me he should have known better for Paul to be angry with the leaders of the Corinthian church to not have kicked him out earlier.

You're reaching there.........there is no indication at all that when he was restored that it was because he had just been born again....he was presented as a believer who had strayed, was disciplined and then repented, hence he was restored to the church. If he was being restored because he had been born again wouldn't Paul have said so and made that clear?

 

[Lizbeth]

And the church has fallen away in the very same way that Israel did. We are without excuse because we have their example......and we read how God sees it. The temple is indeed us....but we have defiled these temples of ours with idols....the idols of our own salvation and forgiveness. People will flock to whatever benefits their own self-love. People read the gospels with a veil over their eyes....the veil of ego and self-interest. God is selfless and His people are also selfless, or, in the end, they are not His people. Before any blessing comes a warning.

But unbelief persists.

The church has fallen away from the living God in 2 ways.

1. The church has forsaken holiness....turning a vital connection to God in the present to some future accomplishment...even claiming to have something they don't have. So the lie persists. Being naked blind and wretched in the true spiritual state even as these claim to be rich and in need of nothing.

2. The church has abandoned righteousness. People turn to judgmentalism, bigotry, and extremism in the idea that God is like that. Only a counterfeit Jesus resembles the kind of image being produced. Jesus is radical but not extremist. He is balanced. He loves the poor in spirit and the meek, the defenseless, the oppressed. It just so happens that where the rich and spoiled counterfeit church resides, there is lack of seeing how people in poor countries live.


No extreme view can represent God. Neither the lefties or the righties promote anything but their own agendas. And God will visit these and treat them according to their own ways....in an extreme way.

Ah no.....you are trying very hard to make the bible fit your narrative. Israel had fallen away through friendship with the world and sins. Worshiping the idols of the world while at the same time purporting to do so in the name of God.........halting between two opinions in other words........serving two masters....eating from the table of the Lord while eating from the table of idols/demons at the same time. And that is a picture of what the church is falling prey to in our time.

If you look at the world and why there is so much terrible suffering.......isn't it usually because of sin? Africa and Haiti for example...witchcraft, idolatry and rampant fornication/adultery. Middle East....also in darkness, from Islam. God is a righteous and just judge and everyone is reaping what they are sowing sadly. But the same is coming for the west as well because it too is devolving into sin and depravity and darkness. The gospel is the only answer for it all....that individual souls might be rescued out of this world of sin and just judgments, through the mercy of God, His wonderful GOSPEL.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You're reaching there.........there is no indication at all that when he was restored that it was because he had just been born again....he was presented as a believer who had strayed, was disciplined and then repented, hence he was restored to the church. If he was being restored because he had been born again wouldn't Paul have said so and made that clear?

I'm not reaching. Paul said what happened was "repentance that lead to salvation." That is being born again the one and only time. Obviously, he was claiming to be a brother in the Lord, but it wasn't true, just like the millions of fake Christians in the world today that will have to be martyred during the Great Tribulation. The truly born again Christians that do not commit lawless willful sin will either be raptured, or protected during the coming GT. I think it is soon.

Liz, I'll be very curious as to who will be our next President, seeing as no country will be on Israel's side during the GT. Trump is on Israel's side so we are not in the GT yet, even though it feels like it sometimes.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The RCC is wrong.....they are not saved by those things. I think you might have misunderstood my post...? Only true FAITH in Christ can save....faith which is not of our own but is the gift of God.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that we are SAVED by rites and rituals. BUT, this doesn't mean that rites and rituals aren't necessary to convey God's grace.

Take Baptism, for example. Baptism is a RITE that brings the forgiveness of sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – BY the ritual of immersion or pouring of water over one’s head. THIS is why we read in the 1st century document, The Didachae (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles):

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

It didn’t matter if the water was cold or warm, living or stored. But water is necessary (Acts 2:37-38, Acts 8:26–40, Acts 10:47-48, 1 Pet. 3:21).

When Paul and the other Apostles LAID HANDS on people for them to receive the Holy Spirit - this was a RITUAL. God, who understands that we are physical people, sometimes uses physical means to convey His grace.

- Jesus put his fingers in the ears of the Deaf-Mute Man to heal him (Mark 7:33–34).
- Jesus smeared mud on the Blind Man’s eyes to heal him (John 9:1–7).
- The Jews sacrificed slaughtered sheep to atone for their sins.

And, whereas Catholics don't offer a "new" sacrifice - we re-present the once-for-all sacrifice at every Mass of the spotless Lamb of God was sacrificed for our sins.

Remember that not ALL of what Jesus did or taught the Apostles was recorded in Scripture (John 21:25). We trust in HIM, by trusting the teachings of His Apostles and their successors, whom He instructed to teach the world.

YOU talk about faith - yet you condemn the sacred Traditions handed down to us by the Apostles and their successors. How can YOU claim to have “Faith” if you refuse the commands of Jesus Himself:

Matt 16:16-19, 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Jesus left us with a Church to learn from – NOT a Book.

Yes I believe it did. It restored the gospel, which is faith in Christ...the necessity of being born again (begotten of the Holy Spirit) through faith, which Jesus spoke of. Which is a real lived (and ongoing) experience, not a "sacrament".

Faith is NOT simply "believing" in Christ. Even the demons do that much (James 2:19).

No – Biblical faith teaches we must -
- Be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Pick up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Perform works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obey His commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

The RCC has replaced the reality of salvation with rites and rituals, church membership and tradition. The Reformation brought back the reality of it being salvation by FAITH in Christ, the necessity of being born again, and adherence to the word of God. In other words, it restored the FOUNDATION of the faith.

WRONG.
The Catholic Church didn’t “replace” anything. It kept the Teachings and Traditions of the Apostles.

And the Reformation didn’t “restore” a thing. It brought endless confusion by inventing brand new doctrines that were NEVER a part of the Biblical or Historical Church. If someone disagrees with the denomination they belong to – they simply splinter-off and create their OWN sect.

THIS is why we have tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects based on the personal interpretations of their human founders – and who ALL believe they have the “Truth” . . .