Christianity is NOT Derived From Judaism

[Wick Stick]

Stop it, people. While the term "Jew" may have been derived from the tribe of Judah, the term has been a synecdoche for "descendent of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (a.k.a. 'Israel'; see Genesis 32:22-32)" for millennia and was used that way in the New Testament.

You stop it.

The Bible goes to great lengths to separate the Northern kingdom (Israel, House of Israel, Ephraim, Samaria) from the Southern kingdom (Judah, House of Judah, Judea, Jews).

They are NOT the same thing. The books of history treat them as separate. The prophets give them different prophecies.

"Jew" has been a synecdoche only for the religion invented by the Pharisees after the destruction of the 2nd Temple, starting near the end of the 1st century. If you have believed that this is all the descendants of Abraham, then you have believed some propaganda.

 

[prism]

The Bible identifies the patriarchs as Syrian:

Where in the Bible does it say Abraham was Syrian?
"A Syrian ready to perish [was] my father" Deut 26:5 doesn't pass the smell test. Abraham was Gentile converted to Jew due to circumcision.

 

[Wrangler]

I will make it simple for the ignorant on this thread that form the belief that Christ was a Jew in the sense of today's Jews/Judaism

It is your ignorance on display buddy. There is more than one sense of many words, including “Jew.” I meant the sense that makes what I write correct - and not the narrowest possible sense of the word maximize the chance that I’m wrong.

Honestly, the hatred Christians have for Jesus’ people on this site is appalling!

Stop it, people. While the term "Jew" may have been derived from the tribe of Judah, the term has been a synecdoche for "descendent of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (a.k.a. 'Israel'; see Genesis 32:22-32)" for millennia and was used that way in the New Testament.

Agreed.

You stop it.

The Bible goes to great lengths to separate the Northern kingdom (Israel, House of Israel, Ephraim, Samaria) from the Southern kingdom (Judah, House of Judah, Judea, Jews).

They are NOT the same thing. The books of history treat them as separate.

‘The Bible‘ also uses the term ”Jew” to refer to all Israel in the time of the Apostles. See Romans 2. Verse 9 specifically says the Jew first, not in contrast to Israel but in contrast to Greeks.

 

[Davy]

John 8:56 KJV
[56] Your father Abraham (who was a Jew) rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Judah had not been born yet in Abraham's day. The word Jew comes from the name of the tribe of Judah. Your statement shows one of the problems in today's Churches; they've been deceived by Jews to think all the seed back to Adam are Jews. The word Jew is not about a race. It is about a group of Israelites of the southern "kingdom of Judah" that began calling themselves that after their return to Jerusalem from their Babylon captivity. I've already shown this from the Jewish historian Josephus.

 

[Wrangler]

The word Jew comes from the name of the tribe of Judah.

Agreed. However, are your lexicographer standards such words can only have one sense, their original sense?

 

[Davy]

It is your ignorance on display buddy. There is more than one sense of many words, including “Jew.” I meant the sense that makes what I write correct - and not the narrowest possible sense of the word maximize the chance that I’m wrong.

That brings back memories of what Bill Clinton said,

"It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." ​

(Bill Clinton, Grand Jury testimony August 17, 1988, answering questions about his attorney's description of an affidavit by Monica Lewinsky.)

 

[Davy]

And do we not have Josephus quoting that the "Jews" are a people seperate and distinct from God's people "Israel"

Yes, in that Antiquities of the Jews history that he wrote, which I have quoted about the small remnant of the "house of Judah" that returned from Babylon calling themselves Jews, when the ten tribes of Israel had been scattered out of the land for many years prior.

 

[Davy]

Agreed. However, are your lexicographer standards such words can only have one sense, their original sense?

I've tried to get folks like you to go study your Bible history more to discover what God's Word actually teaches about this matter.

An example...

Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

The word "Jew" in the above per the Greek is NT:2453 Ioudaios which means a 'Judean' according to GEOGRAPHICAL REGION. How's that? It comes from the name of the tribe of Judah. So how's that make one a Jew? Apostle Paul said he was born of the tribe of Benjamin, which is not the tribe of Judah, so why did he call himself a Jew?

This can only be confusing to those who have NOT studied their Old Testament history.

1. Starting in 1 Kings 11, God split old Israel in Solomon's days because of Solomon allowing his many wives to bring in idol worship among the children of Israel.

2. This split created 2 separate kingdoms involving the children of Israel. The tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and eventually Levi, and a small remnant out of the northern tribes, made up the southern kingdom called the "house of Judah", their capital at Jerusalem-Judea, and under king Rehoboam of the house of David. Other names for this southern kingdom were just "Jerusalem", or just "Judah".
Then the northern kingdom was made up of the ten tribes of Israel, and were called the "house of Israel". Other names were "Israel", "Ephraim", "Samaria", etc.

3. God gave ten tribes to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, and made him "king of Israel". This northern kingdom had NOTHING to do with the southern "house of Judah" kingdom, or Jews. King Jeroboam setup two calf idols in the north to keep the ten tribes from going south to join with the "house of Judah" (1 Kings 12). That false worship continued among the ten tribes through several of their kings, until God finally did something about, and removed the ten tribes out of the holy land by the kings of Assyria (2 Kings 17).

4. The Jews of the "house of Judah" kingdom in the south at Jerusalem-Judea were the only Israelites left in the promise land after God had scattered the ten northern tribes of Israel. When the Jews of the southern kingdom, the "house of Judah", went captive to Babylon, the ten tribes were not present in the land, but were already scattered to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. The Jewish historian Josephus said in his day (circa 100 A.D.) that the ten tribes were still scattered beyond... Euphrates and were a great number of people. Thus God separated the two groups of Israelites. The Jews represented ONLY those of the southern kingdom of Judah, the "house of Judah", as it still... is to this day.

5. The ten tribes though are LOST to the Jews and to the world. God caused them to lose their identity as part of the old kingdom of Israel. They became like Gentiles, scattered among Gentiles. God showed this is what He would to to them in the Book of Hosea.

Because the Jews of the "house of Judah" were the only Israelites left in the promise land, they began to be known and call themselves as Israel. And the seed of the children of Israel they represented as Jews began to be used for the righteous seed of promise, i.e., God's chosen. But NOT ALL OF THEM WERE OF THE SEED. Foreigners per the history about Judah, starting creeping in among the "house of Judah" earlier in their history, and would eventually take over control of Moses' seat of the Law. That is where the "Jew's religion", Judaism, came into existence, by those crept in unawares among the real seed of the "house of Judah".

So when Apostle Paul used the word Ioudaios to represent a true Jews in the SPIRITUAL SENSE, he was pointing to those Judeans of the "house of Judah" that were of the Seed of the Woman, i.e., true Israelites by blood. And Paul was using the term as an example of an Israelite of the Seed in good standing with The Father and The Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Wick Stick]

Where in the Bible does it say Abraham was Syrian?
"A Syrian ready to perish [was] my father" Deut 26:5 doesn't pass the smell test. Abraham was Gentile converted to Jew due to circumcision.

I gave you 3 references. If you don't like that one, lean on the other two.

In the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, and all

 

[Wick Stick]

‘The Bible‘ also uses the term ”Jew” to refer to all Israel in the time of the Apostles. See Romans 2. Verse 9 specifically says the Jew first, not in contrast to Israel but in contrast to Greeks.

Okay. I gave you the consistent usage of the entire Old Testament.

You gave me one verse, from a former Pharisee slipping into an old pattern.

 

[Wrangler]

The word "Jew" in the above per the Greek is NT:2453 Ioudaios which means a 'Judean' according to GEOGRAPHICAL REGION.

Which is another sense of the word than merely offspring of Abraham’s one grandchild, correct?

 

[Wrangler]

Okay. I gave you the consistent usage of the entire Old Testament.

You gave me one verse, from a former Pharisee slipping into an old pattern.

Yup, proving your categorization of how ‘the Bible’ limits the use of the word to one sense false.

 

[Wick Stick]

Yup, proving your categorization of how ‘the Bible’ limits the use of the word to one sense false.

I don't think I stated the argument quite that way, but... I do understand what you're saying (and @Lambano )

If you define Judaism that way - the way the Pharisees did - then Christianity comes from Judaism.

I don't usually define Judaism that way, though. I think of Judaism as the religion of the Pharisees, whose origins come not in Abraham's day or even Moses', but in the 1st-2nd century. It's a religion that was formed AGAINST Christianity, that made its core precepts ones that excluded Christians and condemned Christ.

That Judaism - which is also modern Judaism - I don't think of it as a successor of the Old Testament religion. It doesn't agree with the prophets. It twists Moses. It adds endless commentary on top of the Biblical text that often subverts the meaning or intent. Most of all, it rejects its Messiah.

Christianity doesn't come from THAT religion. I think we probably agree on that point, and the rest is semantics.

 

[Wrangler]

I think of Judaism as the religion of the Pharisees, whose origins come not in Abraham's day or even Moses', but in the 1st-2nd century. It's a religion that was formed AGAINST Christianity

In over half a century, this is the first I’ve ever heard of this most anti-Semitic angle. Let’s apply it to race and see how it fits … when I think of Nig-er, I think of the people who make up the religion of the Pharisees, whose origins come not in ancient Africa, but in the 1st-2nd century. It's a people that formed a religion AGAINST Christianity.

1. Let‘s deny their ancient history before the 1st century.
2. Let’s deny the many other senses of the word referring to race, religion Jesus was born into and obligated under the law to follow, and the people living in the modern State of Israel.
3. Let‘s only acknowledge the word to have only one sense, Anti-Christ.

 

[Wick Stick]

In over half a century, this is the first I’ve ever heard of this most anti-Semitic angle. Let’s apply it to race and see how it fits … when I think of Nig-er, I think of the people who make up the religion of the Pharisees, whose origins come not in ancient Africa, but in the 1st-2nd century. It's a people that formed a religion AGAINST Christianity.

1. Let‘s deny their ancient history before the 1st century.
2. Let’s deny the many other senses of the word referring to race, religion Jesus was born into and obligated under the law to follow, and the people living in the modern State of Israel.
3. Let‘s only acknowledge the word to have only one sense, Anti-Christ.

Okay, so for starters... I'm pro-Israel. I'm also anti-Hamas, anti-Hezbollah, and anti-Islam. It isn't necessary to believe that ALL the Jews through ALL of history were friendly to Christianity (clearly not) to understand that the Israel of today and the America of today are allies.

You seem to want modern politics to dictate history, but they don't.

You need to pick up a history book. Look up the Tannaim, the Mishnah, Rabbi Akiva/Akiba, the Council of Jamnia, Midrash, and Simon bar Kosiba/Kochba. Saying that 1st-2nd century Judaism is anti-Christian is not some form of discrimination - it's simply a fact. The early Rabbis intentionally created a split from Christianity (then called 'the Way'). That split widened for the next 14 centuries, culminating in the Spanish Inquisition.

Judaism today - the religion - remains hostile to Christ. It is far removed from the ancient history of the kingdom of Judah and the patriarchs. If it's a branch, it hasn't been attached in a very long time.