In your theology, why doesn't he take all sin away from our nature, and not just all 'sin unto death'?
Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?
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We're not getting our wires crossed.
You're not listening to what I'm saying.
I had stated that if the above were true, then every single Catholic would be saved because they get baptized as infants....That would be universalism...
This is NOT what the CC teaches.
A person is NOT saved just because he was baptized and receives communion.
These are sacraments...they are a way of God to impart His grace on persons,,,among other ways.
Like prayer,,,good deeds.
This is a complex topic and I will not get into it.
You're partly right.
Faith in Jesus is number one.
No faith
No salvation
Ephesians 2:8-9 is also taugth in the CC.
And to say that a Catholic priest does not know Jesus!
Some might lose their faith...
but they most certainly know who Jesus is.
He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. As the Author, He takes away what would send us to Hell, as He came to defeat the devil. We received the sin nature from Satan through Adam when he willfully sinned against God. In one moment, when we repent, He disarmed the devil in our lives, 1 John 5:18, "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him."
As the Finisher of our Faith, instead of in a moment of time, He matures all the fruit of the Spirit over time, conforming us into His image spiritually. Jesus was the only person who was born without sin, but He died so we could be without sin too and truly His brothers and sisters, children of God, Romans 8:29. This process is not called sanctification as post-Apostolic church fathers called it. I noticed that sanctification was past tense in the New Covenant and it is written that it is completed at justification when we are cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 Cor. 6:11 "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Finally, I prayed and asked God what He calls the process that we go through to become holy, and immediately, He said, "glorification." Now I see it everywhere. Notice sanctification is not in Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." You've probably been taught the heresy that our glorification is after death. But do you believe it? Or do you believe the Bible instead?
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You really are brainwashed aren't you. You don't even read all the warnings do you. Jesus stays the Author and Finisher of our faith as long as WE ABIDE IN HIM. Otherwise, we quench Him when we want to go our own way. No fruit, cut off.
No.
I do read the warnings. They are for everybody.
Both OSAS and not OSAS agree on this. Do you think Reformed teaching says you don't have to abide in him?
But you said that born again people can't commit sin unto death because God took that abilitly away from them. Now you say believers are cut out of the tree for not bearing fruit. What happened?
I believe what the Bible says.
1 Corinthians 15:40
There are heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
So while you glory in the earthly body I await the hope of the glory of the heavenly body after death that far surpasses the glory of the earthly body. As you can see I am being entirely Biblical, not heretical.
We have a clean nature when born again just as Adam did when he was first created. But he also had free will, and God gave them one commandment, and Adam's free will broke it. What we have when born again, what Adam didn't have was the infilling of God, Himself, the Spirit of Christ, so if we commit a sin unto death now when we don't have to, there is no more sacrifice for new mortal sins. You've committed apostasy. There is no such thing as OSAS. We have free will. You won't find the heresy, "past, present and future" mortal sins in the Bible. 1 John 1:9 is used once to BECOME a Christian like Acts 2:38; it is not a get out of hell free card to be used over and over as has been taught in Reformed theology for five hundreds years.
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"After death" is an obvious doctrine of demons who want you to still be sinning when you don't have to be. The body is not the source of the sin nature. Our nature is invisible, like the mind and conscience. Those are what is born again now, not this silly broken down body that gets weaker every year. But the born again keep themselves pure, for they know that is how to abide in Christ. Those who don't think they have to will not produce fruit, and will be cut off. There is no such thing as OSAS, especially if you willfully sin. Willful sinning is a sign you are not born again, so why are you counting on your body and not the Holy Spirit that may, or may not be in you.
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@Judge Hardcastle are you into Calvinism or Reformed Theology ?
TULIP states :
For the record, I grew up in a (back then) Calvinist country, and I am baptized as an adult in a Reformed Church.
TULIP states :
- Total Depravity: Sin has corrupted every part of human nature, leaving people spiritually dead and unable to choose or seek God on their own. [1, 2]
- Unconditional Election: Before the creation of the world, God chose (or "elected") specific individuals to be saved, based entirely on His own sovereign will rather than any foreseen faith or good deeds. [1, 2]
- Limited Atonement: Christ’s death on the cross specifically paid the penalty and secured redemption for the elect, rather than every single human being who ever lived
For the record, I grew up in a (back then) Calvinist country, and I am baptized as an adult in a Reformed Church.
If you want to call 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 a doctrine of demons then so be it.
No, that is not the argument. Nobody is saying they want you to still be sinning. That's ridiculous.
It's amazing that you can't see that your doctrine that God takes away your ability to sin unto death - therefore, you can't sin unto death - is an OSAS doctrine.
You've decided to substitute sanctified when you read glorified, and you believe this will lead to the right result. You've in this determined within yourself to reject the true Word of God in favor of your own version.
If you had a correct understanding you wouldn't have to do this. I admonish you to read the Bible for what it says, not what you want it to say.
That's too hard and fast a category for me to say that represents my theological beliefs. I agree with some of its teachings, but not others.
I agree that no one in their natural state, alone, will care about or seek God. It's only because of the work of the Spirit in the world that spiritual awareness and concern is awaken in a person.
I'm not convinced that Romans 9:20-23 means God purposely fashioned some people to be believers and some to not be believers, rather than God knew some people would believe, and that some would not believe but made them anyway.
Romans 9:20-23
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—
I believe the atonement is available for all people. It's just that some won't want it. But I can see that if you believe that Romans 9:20-23 I quoted above means God purposely made some people to be believers, and not others then Jesus died only for those for whom his redemption was designed.
It seems that the doctrines of Calvinism stem from whether or not you believe God purposely designs and manufacturers people to be either a believer or an unbeliever. And I'm not describing it that way as if to mock it, because I don’t mock it. I’m open to the possibility Reformed doctrine has it right about Romans 9:20-23, but I’m not convinced.
Peter says you confirm that you are called and elected when you progress in the qualities/traits he lists.
2 Peter 1:10-11
10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things (vs.5-7) you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Agreed, TULIP is in error. After my conversion I went for approx 2 years to the Reformed Church because my fiance (wife) was raised in that belief and it was impossible to say you could belong to the elect, you would find out after you died. So they lived their whole life in fear. But it is exactly what core Calvinism (Unconditional Election) teaches. You can't know. Misunderstanding what predestination means.
Glad you don't
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I am sorry to read that the Reformed Church your fiancée/wife went to held that one cannot know one is of the elect until after death. However, that is not what most who hold to the doctrines of grace/Calvinism believe. They believe what John wrote, as I am sure non-Calvinists also do:Agreed, TULIP is in error. After my conversion I went for approx 2 years to the Reformed Church because my fiance (wife) was raised in that belief and it was impossible to say you could belong to the elect, you would find out after you died. So they lived their whole life in fear. But it is exactly what core Calvinism (Unconditional Election) teaches. You can't know. Misunderstanding what predestination means.
Glad you don't
1Jn 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith is thoroughly Calvinistic. It includes a whole chapter, Chapter 18, entitled "Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation." I'll just paste the first paragraph here:
Paragraph 1
Although temporary believers and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God and in a state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish;1 yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God,2 which hope shall never make them ashamed.31 Job 8:13–14; Matt. 7:22–23
2 1 John 2:3, 3:14,18–19,21,24, 5:13
3 Rom. 5:2,5
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But (apart from the church you mentioned) can you quote any Calvinist source that states that we cannot know whether or not we are elect until after death?
Unconditional Election: Before the creation of the world, God chose (or "elected") specific individuals to be saved, based entirely on His own sovereign will rather than any foreseen faith or good deeds.
Seems clear enough to me.
When I started reading the Bible for myself I came to the conclusion that UE was false, the most simple was John 3:16 and the many others. And so I started to tell my lovely grandmother -> I have eternal life, I don't go to hell -> look, the Bible says so and I believe it. But she was shocked and told me nobody can know that. Same story and shocked reaction with my father in law, notable an elder in the Reformed Church.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But God's choosing before the foundation of the world does not do away with the need for belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, nor does it mean that a person cannot have assurance of their salvation before the die. Yes, John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Him (the Lord Jesus Christ) has eternal life. When somebody comes to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that shows that they are one of those chosen before the foundation of the world. Paul describes the sequence in Romans 8, in what some call the golden chain of salvation:
NKJV Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
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