The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[Taken]

I see them over and over telling us what we believe.
They do not know our doctrine.
Or do they care to.

Agree. Some random unknown…gaslighted…. when there are plenty of “members” they can quote and “respond to in agreement or disagreement.

I get it.
They see us personally as heretics and despise their Christian brothers. (Us "heretics").

gaslighting…then name calling… a usual tatic!

All the while forced into not knowing what the rapture is.

Rapture is not a mystery…for a diligent , ardent student…
Simply the raising UP “off the Earth” applied to Those Body’s before the Trib, which Christ Jesus has Sav-ED .

The Resurrected (saved or not) are body’s raised up from their graves to the face of the Earth.

It is beyond bizarre that such rapture experts, as they claim of themselves, DO NOT KNOW THE PURPOSE OF THE RAPTURE,

Agree…

OR EVEN WHAT IT IS!!!!

Agree.

HUH???????
LAST DAYS DECEPTION ON DISPLAY

And getting worse with every passing generation of greedy, lazy, shirkers & misfits
…

God bless you,
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davidpt]

I see them over and over telling us what we believe.
They do not know our doctrine.
Or do they care to.

I get it.
They see us personally as heretics and despise their Christian brothers. (Us "heretics").

All the while forced into not knowing what the rapture is.

It is beyond bizarre that such rapture experts, as they claim of themselves, DO NOT KNOW THE PURPOSE OF THE RAPTURE, OR EVEN WHAT IT IS!!!!

HUH???????
LAST DAYS DECEPTION ON DISPLAY

That really makes sense that some of us don't know your doctrine even though some of us were Pretriibers our self at one time. As to me I was a Pretribber probably since the early 70s through the mid 80s, or maybe even longer.

 

[Douggg]

That really makes sense that some of us don't know your doctrine even though some of us were Pretriibers our self at one time. As to me I was a Pretribber probably since the early 70s through the mid 80s, or maybe even longer.

David, there is no mention of a resurrection/rapture in Revelation 19 taking place when Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Can Pretribbers debunk anything in the OP or not?

I believe that the resurrection/rapture could happen before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

Are you following Jesus's instructions of Matthew 24:42 ? Or are you waiting for the great tribulation to take place, as in the post-trib view ?

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[ewq1938]

David, there is no mention of a resurrection/rapture in Revelation 19 taking place when Jesus returns.

That's because the resurrection and rapture take place before Jesus descends down from the clouds.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe that the resurrection/rapture could happen before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

Are you following Jesus's instructions of Matthew 24:42 ? Or are you waiting for the great tribulation to take place, as in the post-trib view ?

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

There is scripture that is newer than that:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Douggg]

That's because the resurrection and rapture take place before Jesus descends down from the clouds.

How long before ?

 

[Douggg]

There is scripture that is newer than that:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

That does not cancel what Jesus said to do in Matthew 24:42.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Are you watching for the resurrection/rapture - for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come ?

 

[Davidpt]

I believe that the resurrection/rapture could happen before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

Are you following Jesus's instructions of Matthew 24:42 ? Or are you waiting for the great tribulation to take place, as in the post-trib view ?

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


If you are applying verse 42 to a Pretrib rapture, what do you then do with verses 45 -47, since it is ludicrous to apply that to someone that 's allegedly going to be dwelling in heaven for a few years rather than someone who will continue to dwell on earth. We can't act like, and expect to be taken serious, that verses 45-47 aren't meaning when verse 42 is meaning. And clearly, no matter how you look at it, verses 45-47 do not fit before great tribulation. Those are clearly Posttribulation verses.

 

[ewq1938]

That does not cancel what Jesus said to do in Matthew 24:42.

It's newer information. We will not be surprised by the second coming as others shall be.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Are you watching for the resurrection/rapture - for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come ?

I know when it will happen when I see certain events take place like the events of Rev 11 and the two prophets.

Paul warned that the second coming and rapture gathering will not happen until the Apostasy and revealing of the MoS happens first so that negates the pretrib rapture. Pretrib teaches the Apostasy is the pretrib rapture so that goes against what Paul said.

 

[ewq1938]

How long before ?

Same day, could be an hour or less. We aren't told how long the in the clouds meeting lasts but I don't think it's more than a day.

 

[Douggg]

Same day, could be an hour or less. We aren't told how long the in the clouds meeting lasts but I don't think it's more than a day.

If so, then why are not the dead in Christ (made dead because they are beheaded for not worshiping the beast, nor his image) not part of the resurrection/rapture group ?

The martyred great tribulation saints, Christians, are not resurrected until after Jesus has returned, in Revelation 20:4-5.

That proves that the resurrection/rapture event is not post trib.

 

[ewq1938]

If so, then why are not the dead in Christ (made dead because they are beheaded for not worshiping the beast, nor his image) not part of the resurrection/rapture group ?

They are part of those resurrected.

The martyred great tribulation saints, Christians, are not resurrected until after Jesus has returned, in Revelation 20:4-5.

Rev is not always in chronological order. Rev 20 starts in the timeline before the descent of Christ to Armageddon.

That proves that the resurrection/rapture event is not post trib.

No, it does not. Everything written about the resurrection and rapture place them at the one and only Coming of Christ, after the trib has ended (7th trump).

 

[Douggg]

They are part of those resurrected

No, you wrote that the resurrection/raptured group was before Jesus descends down from the clouds. The martyred great tribulation saints, Christians, in Revelation 20:4-5, are not resurrected until after Jesus descends down from the clouds.

Rev is not always in chronological order. Rev 20 starts in the timeline before the descent of Christ to Armageddon.

No, Revelation 20:4-5 is after Jesus has descended down to earth. And after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20.

Which proves that the resurrection/rapture event is not post trib, because the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, Christians, happens exclusively for them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That really makes sense that some of us don't know your doctrine even though some of us were Pretriibers our self at one time. As to me I was a Pretribber probably since the early 70s through the mid 80s, or maybe even longer.

Lol
"I was a pretribber since the 70's"
But you do not know that doctrine.
You maybe followed some men then, and certainly do the same now.

You DO NOT know the pretrib rapture doctrine.
In fact you cast down ,what, 8 or so verses to go downhill to a teaching of men that has NO VERSES...NONE!!!!

 

[ewq1938]

No, you wrote that the resurrection/raptured group was before Jesus descends down from the clouds. The martyred great tribulation saints, Christians, in Revelation 20:4-5, are not resurrected until after Jesus descends down from the clouds.

Nope. They are with Christ when he descends as part of his army.

No, Revelation 20:4-5 is after Jesus has descended down to earth.

Nope. You are wrongly assuming all the events of Rev 20 follow the events of Rev 19. Rev 20 starts back before Christ descends to show some of the resurrection that takes place immediately when the 7th trump sounds.

 

[Davidpt]

David, there is no mention of a resurrection/rapture in Revelation 19 taking place when Jesus returns.

You are correct. Therefore, it is a matter of squaring the following, for example, then.


Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


1 Thessalonians 4:13 ¶But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Asuming this coming---A) the coming of the Lord(1 Thessalonians 4:15---is not involving this coming---B) and they shall see the Son of man coming(Matthew 24:30)---which coming, A) or B), are we to apply this to---shall he appear the second time(Hebrews 9:28)?

If we apply it to A), then what about when He appears during B)? Where is there a single Scripture that says He comes a third time? If it can mention a second time, but in reality 3 comings are involved, it can certainly mention a third time. So where is there such a Scripture?

But if we apply it to B) rather than A), B) is a false statement in that case, since it ignores the coming per A).

What's the solution then. Just contradict something either way? Or that maybe both A) and B) involve only one coming, and now there is no contradiction? Apparently, Pretribbers would not make good detectives, because a good detective when examining these things, would not be trying to prove something via contradictions, but would be trying to prove it via sound logic. I get it. Apparently, Pretribbers couldn't care less about sound logic, so I guess my point is moot then.

unto the coming of the Lord(1 Thess 4:15) Per Pretrib is this a coming that doesn't involve Jesus literally coming or appearing anywhere? That He just simply stays in heaven and summons them up to heaven where He is? That He doesn't literally come or appear anywhere? But if He does literally come and appear somewhere, regardless what He does after that, no one can then argue, and expect to be taken serious, that this coming doesn't count as a coming nor an appearance. That would be like arguing that a thief breaks into someone's home unnoticed then leaves. That this doesn't count as a coming nor appearing anywhere since no one noticed at the time.

 

[Douggg]

You are correct. Therefore, it is a matter of squaring the following, for example, then.


Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


1 Thessalonians 4:13 ¶But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Asuming this coming---A) the coming of the Lord(1 Thessalonians 4:15---is not involving this coming---B) and they shall see the Son of man coming(Matthew 24:30)---which coming, A) or B), are we to apply this to---shall he appear the second time(Hebrews 9:28)?

If we apply it to A), then what about when He appears during B)? Where is there a single Scripture that says He comes a third time? If it can mention a second time, but in reality 3 comings are involved, it can certainly mention a third time. So where is there such a Scripture?

But if we apply it to B) rather than A), B) is a false statement in that case, since it ignores the coming per A).

What's the solution then. Just contradict something either way? Or that maybe both A) and B) involve only one coming, and now there is no contradiction? Apparently, Pretribbers would not make good detectives, because a good detective when examining these things, would not be trying to prove something via contradictions, but would be trying to prove it via sound logic. I get it. Apparently, Pretribbers couldn't care less about sound logic, so I guess my point is moot then.

unto the coming of the Lord(1 Thess 4:15) Per Pretrib is this a coming that doesn't involve Jesus literally coming or appearing anywhere? That He just simply stays in heaven and summons them up to heaven where He is? That He doesn't literally come or appear anywhere? But if He does literally come and appear somewhere, regardless what He does after that, no one can then argue, and expect to be taken serious, that this coming doesn't count as a coming nor an appearance. That would be like arguing that a thief breaks into someone's home unnoticed then leaves. That this doesn't count as a coming nor appearing anywhere since no one noticed at the time.

Here is a chart of the pre-trib view of the resurrection/rapture event.