Once saved always saved

[Dryhn]

Yes, the OSAS believers used a wrong tactics here. Instead of painting Judas 'never believed', 'devil' in the first place, why not paint him as a true believer who repented for his sin and is forgiven by GRACE, by blood of Jesus. So, Judas savation never lost. He is with Jesus in heaven !!

There is no sin Jesus's blood cannot wash away, isn't it?

At the time Judas & Peter etc did not know of Salvation c/- death, burial, resurrection of Christ

Matt 16:
21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

 

[Dryhn]

For the same token, I could say the same thing.
God has chosen you but you were never chosen to be saved.

Foreknowledge - GOD knows who will be saved but does not randomly choose those bound for destruction

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[rwb]

For the same token, I could say the same thing.
God has chosen you but you were never chosen to be saved.

You can say anything you wish! Are you offended because I've spoken the truth to you?

 

[rwb]

Yes, the OSAS believers used a wrong tactics here. Instead of painting Judas 'never believed', 'devil' in the first place, why not paint him as a true believer who repented for his sin and is forgiven by GRACE, by blood of Jesus. So, Judas savation never had lost. He is with Jesus in heaven !!

There is no sin Jesus's blood cannot wash away, isn't it?

In that case , it is still faith + works (remorse), not just faith alone.

Because this does not come from the Bible, but from your heart. Why? Because you find the truth offensive.

 

[rwb]

Foreknowledge - GOD knows who will be saved but does not randomly choose those bound for destruction

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, God chooses some for eternal life because all of mankind is destined to die. If God did not choose some to be saved through Christ, then no man would be saved. All/whosoever shall be saved come unto Christ through knowledge of the truth, because it is the will of God that they should not perish, but that they should come to repentance according to grace through faith.

 

[Dryhn]

Yes, God chooses some for eternal life because all of mankind is destined to die. If God did not choose some to be saved through Christ, then no man would be saved. All/whosoever shall be saved come unto Christ through knowledge of the truth, because it is the will of God that they should not perish, but that they should come to repentance according to grace through faith.

I understand that GOD knows who will be saved BUT if GOD PRE-determines who will be saved then these following verses are a lie

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Dryhn]

Yes, the OSAS believers used a wrong tactics here. Instead of painting Judas 'never believed', 'devil' in the first place, why not paint him as a true believer who repented for his sin and is forgiven by GRACE, by blood of Jesus. So, Judas savation never had lost. He is with Jesus in heaven !!

There is no sin Jesus's blood cannot wash away, isn't it?

In that case , it is still faith + works (remorse), not just faith alone.

In that case , it is still faith + works (remorse), not just faith alone.
In that case these following verses are a lie
Titus 3:5-7
Eph 2:8-9
Gal 2:16
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom5:1

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, the OSAS believers used a wrong tactics here. Instead of painting Judas 'never believed', 'devil' in the first place, why not paint him as a true believer who repented for his sin and is forgiven by GRACE, by blood of Jesus.

Ahhhh... "OSAS"... the false crusade against it... <chuckles> Whatever... <smile> I would say, though, that if one truly falls away from the faith, it is because he or she was never of God and never a true believer in the first place. They may have shared fellowship for a time with believers, but if they truly fall away, it is because of an evil unbelieving heart that leads them to do so, as the writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 3:12) says.

So, Judas salvation never had lost. He is with Jesus in heaven !!

I think so, yes.

There is no sin Jesus's blood cannot wash away...

That's absolutely correct. There is sin that is unforgivable, though...

In that case , it is still faith + works (remorse), not just faith alone.

Well, only if you understand that our good works are a result and the natural outpouring of the faith we are given when we are born again. In that case, the good works are the proof that we have saving faith, both to ourselves and to others, which is what James says in James 2. If you get that right, then yes.

The 'faith alone' mantra is that we are saved by grace through faith, and there is nothing else ~ which is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 ~ so in that sense, it is faith alone. Works follow faith (God's assurance and conviction by the Spirit; Hebrews 11:1) without fail. In being born again, this is what God creates us for, that we would walk in them... we are His workmanship (Ephesians 2:10).

Grace and peace to you, beechan.

 

[Dryhn]

Ahhhh... "OSAS"... the false crusade against it... <chuckles> Whatever... <smile> I would say, though, that if one truly falls away from the faith, it is because he or she was never of God and never a true believer in the first place. They may have shared fellowship for a time with believers, but if they truly fall away, it is because of an evil unbelieving heart that leads them to do so, as the writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 3:12) says.


I think so, yes.


That's absolutely correct. There is sin that is unforgivable, though...


Well, only if you understand that our good works are a result and the natural outpouring of the faith we are given when we are born again. In that case, the good works are the proof that we have saving faith, both to ourselves and to others, which is what James says in James 2. If you get that right, then yes.

The 'faith alone' mantra is that we are saved by grace through faith, and there is nothing else ~ which is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 ~ so in that sense, it is faith alone. Works follow faith (God's assurance and conviction by the Spirit; Hebrews 11:1) without fail. In being born again, this is what God creates us for, that we would walk in them... we are His workmanship (Ephesians 2:10).

Grace and peace to you, beechan.

and you're having to step outside of Paul to support your hypothesis < shakes head>

 

[beechan]

beechan said:
So, Judas salvation never had lost. He is with Jesus in heaven !!

I think so, yes.

You snapped right onto the face of @GRACE ambassador #163 and on @rwb #174!
How could a 'never believe' Judas is at heaven!?

 

[beechan]

In that case , it is still faith + works (remorse), not just faith alone.
In that case these following verses are a lie
Titus 3:5-7
Eph 2:8-9
Gal 2:16
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom5:1

In that case these verses are lies too:
James 2:13-14
James 2:18-21
Relevation 20:12
2 Corinthian 5:10

 

[Dryhn]

In that case these verses are lies too:
James 2:13-14
James 2:18-21
Relevation 20:12
2 Corinthian 5:10

2 Cor 5:10 is the Judgement Seat of Christ for SAVED believers c/- Gal 1:11-2, 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13

I see that again you had to go outside of Paul to support your claim

Try again using the teachings of Paul - the Christ selected Apostle to teach you how to enter Heaven

 

[Dryhn]

You snapped right onto the face of @GRACE ambassador #163 and on @rwb #174!
How could a 'never believe' Judas is at heaven!?

Judas was not under the death, burial, resurrection gospel taught uniquely to Paul by Christ - Gal 1:11-12, 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13

 

[beechan]

Judas was not under the death, burial, resurrection gospel taught uniquely to Paul by Christ - Gal 1:11-12, 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13

Are you saying that Peter, James, John, and the other disciples were actually un-saved or operating under an incomplete, ineffective spiritual status while walking face-to-face with the incarnate God.

To argue that Judas 'never believed' because he wasn't reading Paul's epistles is to inject an artificial rule that invalidates the faith of every believer who lived before Paul.

A big nonsense I not hear until today.

 

[Dryhn]

Are you saying that Peter, James, John, and the other disciples were actually un-saved or operating under an incomplete, ineffective spiritual status while walking face-to-face with the incarnate God.

To argue that Judas 'never believed' because he wasn't reading Paul's epistles is to inject an artificial rule that invalidates the faith of every believer who lived before Paul.

A big nonsense I not hear until today.

I'm saying ALL the Apostles agreed that Paul is to teach the Gospel to his audience & they to their's
Gal 2:7-9
Now tell me oh wise one, who is your Christ selected Apostle to teach you how to enter Heaven :)

 

[PinSeeker]

Foreknowledge - GOD knows who will be saved...

This is not correct. Paul mentions the foreknowledge of God in Romans 8:29... "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."

In the sense of just knowing beforehand, knowing who they are and knowing about them, in that sense God knows every one and every thing beforehand. But this cannot be the correct understanding of God's foreknowledge, simply because we know that not everyone will be saved. Logically, if this foreknowledge is just a cognitive knowing, then everyone would be saved, but we know that not to be the case.

And secondly, by "those whom God foreknew," Paul is obviously talking about a limited group of folks, not all people, and the unmistakable insinuation is that He did not foreknow everyone.

So, while it is absolutely true that God knows who will be saved ~ His elect, who Paul begins speaking of in the very next chapter (9) in Romans ~ this foreknowledge is something different, something much higher, than just a "knowing who will be saved." So what does it mean? Well, in both Hebrew and Greek, the verb "to know," as it is used many time in both the Old Testament and the New, means "to love." Like in Genesis 4, Adam knew his wife Eve, and she bore Cain, and then later Abel. God's foreknowledge, as Paul refers to it, is synonymous with fore-loving... so loving beforehand, which is dependent only on His will and His grace. And this fits both with what Paul says about God's elect, using Jacob and Esau as the forebearers and examples ~ Jacob have I loved, and Esau I have hated ~ and also with what John later says in 1 John 4, that "we love because He first loved us." And Paul says it this way in Ephesians 1...

"(God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will..."​

but does not randomly choose those bound for destruction

Right, but He does choose who to set His salvific love... His mercy and compassion, which He gives to whom He will give it (Romans 9)... those whom He chooses so to do. And it has to be His grace, because no one is deserving of His mercy and compassion, and if He were to give only justice, and give grace to no one, then no one would be saved. Those "bound for destruction" He gives over to their own selfish passions, because they have exchanged the truth for a lie and worshiped creation rather than the Creator. This is what Paul says very clearly in Romans 1.

2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's heart is that all would come to knowledge of the Lord and would be saved. But He will not compromise His justice. We know these things:

• "No purpose of (God's) can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).
• 
  
• "...as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall (God's) Word be that goes out from (His) mouth; it shall not return to (Him) empty, but it shall accomplish that which (He) purpose(s), and shall succeed in the thing for which (He) sent it" (Isaiah 55:10-11)

Grace and peace to you, Dry. <smile>

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying that Peter, James, John, and the other disciples were actually un-saved or operating under an incomplete, ineffective spiritual status while walking face-to-face with the incarnate God.

To argue that Judas 'never believed' because he wasn't reading Paul's epistles is to inject an artificial rule that invalidates the faith of every believer who lived before Paul.

A big nonsense I not hear until today.

Just let it go, beechan. Dry-boy thinks he's on a roll... LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[beechan]

2 Cor 5:10 is the Judgement Seat of Christ for SAVED believers c/- Gal 1:11-2, 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13

If believers are already saved, what is the point of placing them in front of the judgement seat of Christ?

Are good believers goto better places of heaven: villas and mansions. Ordinary you and me goto heaven slums?

You guys are making funny, illogical hermeneutics of the Bible.

ETA:
It only makes sense that even believers have to be judged. Judge what?
2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."


Again, it is faith + good works. Both are needed.

 

[Dryhn]

This is not correct. Paul mentions the foreknowledge of God in Romans 8:29... "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."

In the sense of just knowing beforehand, knowing who they are and knowing about them, in that sense God knows every one and every thing beforehand. But this cannot be the correct understanding of God's foreknowledge, simply because we know that not everyone will be saved. Logically, if this foreknowledge is just a cognitive knowing, then everyone would be saved, but we know that not to be the case.

And secondly, by "those whom God foreknew," Paul is obviously talking about a limited group of folks, not all people, and the unmistakable insinuation is that He did not foreknow everyone.

So, while it is absolutely true that God knows who will be saved ~ His elect, who Paul begins speaking of in the very next chapter (9) in Romans ~ this foreknowledge is something different, something much higher, than just a "knowing who will be saved." So what does it mean? Well, in both Hebrew and Greek, the verb "to know," as it is used many time in both the Old Testament and the New, means "to love." Like in Genesis 4, Adam knew his wife Eve, and she bore Cain, and then later Abel. God's foreknowledge, as Paul refers to it, is synonymous with fore-loving... so loving beforehand, which is dependent only on His will and His grace. And this fits both with what Paul says about God's elect, using Jacob and Esau as the forebearers and examples ~ Jacob have I loved, and Esau I have hated ~ and also with what John later says in 1 John 4, that "we love because He first loved us." And Paul says it this way in Ephesians 1...

"(God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will..."​

Right, but He does choose who to set His salvific love... His mercy and compassion, which He gives to whom He will give it (Romans 9)... those whom He chooses so to do. And it has to be His grace, because no one is deserving of His mercy and compassion, and if He were to give only justice, and give grace to no one, then no one would be saved. Those "bound for destruction" He gives over to their own selfish passions, because they have exchanged the truth for a lie and worshiped creation rather than the Creator. This is what Paul says very clearly in Romans 1.


God's heart is that all would come to knowledge of the Lord and would be saved. But He will not compromise His justice. We know these things:

• "No purpose of (God's) can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).
• 
  
• "...as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall (God's) Word be that goes out from (His) mouth; it shall not return to (Him) empty, but it shall accomplish that which (He) purpose(s), and shall succeed in the thing for which (He) sent it" (Isaiah 55:10-11)

Grace and peace to you, Dry. <smile>

Predestination based on FORE-knowledge.
What confuses you ? <smile> <giggle><rolls eyes>

Are you stating these verses are a lie ?
2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[PinSeeker]

Predestination based on FORE-knowledge.

Right. See above.

What confuses you ? <smile> <giggle><rolls eyes>

Nothing. I'm trying to give you a little better understanding. But hey, you know, like Simon and Garfunkel sang over fifty years ago, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...

Are you stating these verses are a lie ?
2 Pet 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Absolutely not. Here again, your... "understanding" of them is far too simple.

Grace and peace to you.