A Textual Challenge to the “Mary and Joseph Had Later Relations” Position

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Moonwood

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The Bible wants us to know & clearly teaches a VIRGIN CONCEIVED - only a fool would dispute that.

If the Bible wanted us to know PERPETUAL VIRGINITY, it would teach it but it doesn't unless you RC torture text in a vain attempt to support a dogma

You're treating two different questions as though they were the same. We all agree that Scripture teaches the virginal conception. The question is whether the interpretation that Mary and Joseph later had marital relations adequately accounts for how Luke presents that virginal conception. In other words, my challenge is not:

"Does Luke teach the virgin birth?"

Everyone here agrees that it does. My challenge is:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph and therefore future conception through Joseph, why does She explain Her difficulty by saying, "I know not man"? Why does Gabriel answer by explaining divine conception, appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and conclude, "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?

Simply saying:

"Luke teaches the virgin birth"

does not answer that question. It restates the very passage under discussion.

The issue is whether the interpretation asserting future marital relations between Mary and Joseph adequately explains Luke's narrative. If it does, then please explain how Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's answer, Elizabeth's miraculous conception, and "nothing shall be impossible with God" fit together with the claim that Mary expected future conception through Joseph. If it does not, then that is evidence that the interpretation may need to be reconsidered, even if that alone does not conclusively prove perpetual virginity.
 

Dryhn

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You're treating two different questions as though they were the same. We all agree that Scripture teaches the virginal conception. The question is whether the interpretation that Mary and Joseph later had marital relations adequately accounts for how Luke presents that virginal conception. In other words, my challenge is not:

"Does Luke teach the virgin birth?"

Everyone here agrees that it does. My challenge is:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph and therefore future conception through Joseph, why does She explain Her difficulty by saying, "I know not man"? Why does Gabriel answer by explaining divine conception, appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and conclude, "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?

Simply saying:

"Luke teaches the virgin birth"

does not answer that question. It restates the very passage under discussion.

The issue is whether the interpretation asserting future marital relations between Mary and Joseph adequately explains Luke's narrative. If it does, then please explain how Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's answer, Elizabeth's miraculous conception, and "nothing shall be impossible with God" fit together with the claim that Mary expected future conception through Joseph. If it does not, then that is evidence that the interpretation may need to be reconsidered, even if that alone does not conclusively prove perpetual virginity.
Sorry moon I don't do the RC left right left right left right march that you are duped into doing nor do I need man-made catechism & magisterium to interpret the Bible for me
 

Moonwood

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Sorry moon I don't do the RC left right left right left right march that you are duped into doing nor do I need man-made catechism & magisterium to interpret the Bible for me

That's an argument about me, not about Luke 1. I'm asking a textual question. The answer to a textual question is found by addressing the text, not by discussing the denomination of the person asking it. So I'll simply repeat the question:

How does your interpretation reconcile Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's explanation of divine conception, Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and "For with God nothing shall be impossible" with the claim that Mary expected future conception through Joseph?
 

Dryhn

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That's an argument about me, not about Luke 1. I'm asking a textual question. The answer to a textual question is found by addressing the text, not by discussing the denomination of the person asking it. So I'll simply repeat the question:

How does your interpretation reconcile Mary's appeal to "I know not man," Gabriel's explanation of divine conception, Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and "For with God nothing shall be impossible" with the claim that Mary expected future conception through Joseph?
Virgin conception Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son
No sex after birth >>>> insert verses here <<<< :)
 

Moonwood

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Virgin conception Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son
No sex after birth >>>> insert verses here <<<< :)

We already agree on the virginal conception.

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son."

Nobody in this thread is disputing that.
What you're doing is changing the question from:

"Can the later-relations interpretation be reconciled with Luke 1:34-37?"

to:

"Can you show a verse that explicitly says Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth?"

Those are different questions.
My challenge is not:

"Prove perpetual virginity from a single verse."

My challenge is:

If Mary expected future marital relations with Joseph, and therefore expected future conception through Joseph, why does She explain Her difficulty by saying, "I know not man," when Gabriel never specifies when the conception will occur?

And why does Gabriel answer with divine conception, appeal to Elizabeth's otherwise impossible conception, and conclude, "For with God nothing shall be impossible"?


Simply asking me for a verse about Mary's later life does not reconcile your interpretation with Luke's narrative.

The challenge remains: How does your interpretation account for Mary's statement, Gabriel's answer, Elizabeth's conception, and "For with God nothing shall be impossible" if future conception through Joseph was already Mary's expected explanation?