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FaithWillDo

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Luke 12:40-48 are for todays believer since it is the rapture

Dont think Ive ever heard anyone say all will be saved.... while Christ died for all not all will be saved
Dear Who Me,
The apostate churches of this world mix in works to the Gospel and limit salvation to this age. Both teachings are false and come from the spirit of anti-Christ that invaded the church in the 1st century AD.

Here is how Christ saves mankind, starting with the elect:

Shortly after Paul's death, 100% of the babes (no sheep were spared) in the churches fell away and began teaching "perverse things" (Acts 20:29-31). Those perverse teachings quickly became common place and were fully accepted by orthodox Christianity. By the time John received the vision recorded in Revelation, the churches had already begun teaching and following "another gospel" - the one that Paul warned would come after his "departing". Nothing has changed over the centuries since that time, even up to today.

The churches of this world are still following Satan's false gospel.

So how does Satan's gospel differ from the true Gospel of Christ?

Satan's gospel mixes the works of man with the works of Christ.

The Old Covenant was based solely on the works of man for a person to be acceptable to God. It failed.

The New Covenant is based solely on the works of Christ for a person to be acceptable to God. It succeeds.

The two covenants should NOT be mixed together as the churches do. Don't be thinking that your church is different because it is not.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine (Old & New Covenant mixed together). 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

In this age, when Christ decides to begin the salvation process within a person, He will come to them in their unbelieving spiritual state and freely (without their permission or asking for it) give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. In the farming analogy, the small measure of the Holy Spirit is called the Early Rain. The Early Rain will give a person a measure of faith and other gifts but it will leave them carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. Scripture calls this new believer a "babe" or "virgin". They have been called to be a saint but are not a saint yet. The Early Rain begins a babe's time of waiting for Christ to return with their salvation.

The time of waiting occurs between the Early and Latter Rains.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he
(Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

The time period of waiting is referred to as "time, times and a half, 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days". When you read a scripture that contains these terms, know that the verse is teaching on the spiritual events that occur to a babe between the Early and Latter Rains. During each babe's time of waiting for Christ to return to convert them, they will come under the deceptions of the spirit of anti-Christ and will fall away. They fall away because they have accepted Satan's false gospel which mixes works with faith. For this reason, a babe's time of waiting is called a time of GREAT TRIBULATION and the time of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought.

As a result of the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ and the babe's acceptance of Satan's false gospel, the babe will become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a MAN OF SIN/ANTI-CHRIST/BEAST WITH SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS & CROWNS. These spiritual terms represent all apostate babes. THERE WILL NOT BE A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL CALLED THE ANTI-CHRIST WHO RISES TO POWER AT THE LITERAL END OF THE AGE. That is a false teaching from spiritually blind apostate teachers.

The mixing of works with faith is the "sin that leads to death" (1John 5:16). It is founded upon the false Doctrine of Free Will. When a babe mixes works with faith, they have consumed the mixed wine presented in Prv 23:29-32 which I quoted above. This makes the pathway of Christ "crooked". Christ requires His pathway to be "straight" (faith alone) before He will appear to a babe for their conversion.

Since all babes fall away, how can an apostate babe be saved before they die?

For the ELECT babes ONLY, Christ will come again to them before they die and will pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism. This event will cause them to repent of their works which will restore their faith. With the pathway now made "straight", Christ will "appear" to them (the second coming) and convert them.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

AFTER AN ELECT PERSON IS CONVERTED, THEIR SALVATION IS ETERNALLY SECURE. The phrase "once saved, always saved" applies at this point.

Paul's conversion is the type that all elect believers will follow. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. He "typed" falling away during his three days in Damascus. After his three days were complete, Christ came again to Paul and poured out the Latter Rain. Paul’s spiritual blindness was then healed and the scales fell from his eyes. Christ then appeared and converted Paul. This was Paul's day of salvation.

For the apostate babes who are NOT elect, Christ will NOT give them the Latter Rain before they die. They will die in their sins and they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment/not literal fire). But because Christ came to save the world (1John 4:14), He will not forget the balance of unsaved mankind. In the final age, Christ will include MERCY, FAITH, AND JUSTICE during His judgment of the lost. His mercy will birth a new child of God and will leave the child of the Devil in the Lake of Fire to perish. This death will satisfy justice.

These verses apply:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just (elect) and on the unjust (non-elect).

After the last person of mankind has been converted, the verses below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Joe
 
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Dryhn

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You accuse me of the above of saying

GOD knowing who will believe the gospel is NOT GOD CHOOSING who will believe the Gospel
Can't you see the difference ?

Which I did not say.... so you were wrong in accusing me of that.....
Your wording created the confusion, learn to be precise :)

Quoting Scripture, who is your Christ selected Apostle to teach you how to be saved ?
Quote the verses that way there will be no confusion
 

WHO ME

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Dear Who Me,
The apostate churches of this world mix in works to the Gospel and limit salvation to this age. Both teachings are false and come from the spirit of anti-Christ that invaded the church in the 1st century AD.

Here is how Christ saves mankind, starting with the elect:

Shortly after Paul's death, 100% of the babes (no sheep were spared) in the churches fell away and began teaching "perverse things" (Acts 20:29-31). Those perverse teachings quickly became common place and were fully accepted by orthodox Christianity. By the time John received the vision recorded in Revelation, the churches had already begun teaching and following "another gospel" - the one that Paul warned would come after his "departing". Nothing has changed over the centuries since that time, even up to today.

The churches of this world are still following Satan's false gospel.

So how does Satan's gospel differ from the true Gospel of Christ?

Satan's gospel mixes the works of man with the works of Christ.

The Old Covenant was based solely on the works of man for a person to be acceptable to God. It failed.

The New Covenant is based solely on the works of Christ for a person to be acceptable to God. It succeeds.

The two covenants should NOT be mixed together as the churches do. Don't be thinking that your church is different because it is not.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine (Old & New Covenant mixed together). 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

In this age, when Christ decides to begin the salvation process within a person, He will come to them in their unbelieving spiritual state and freely (without their permission or asking for it) give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. In the farming analogy, the small measure of the Holy Spirit is called the Early Rain. The Early Rain will give a person a measure of faith and other gifts but it will leave them carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. Scripture calls this new believer a "babe" or "virgin". They have been called to be a saint but are not a saint yet. The Early Rain begins a babe's time of waiting for Christ to return with their salvation.

The time of waiting occurs between the Early and Latter Rains.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he
(Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

The time period of waiting is referred to as "time, times and a half, 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days". When you read a scripture that contains these terms, know that the verse is teaching on the spiritual events that occur to a babe between the Early and Latter Rains. During each babe's time of waiting for Christ to return to convert them, they will come under the deceptions of the spirit of anti-Christ and will fall away. They fall away because they have accepted Satan's false gospel which mixes works with faith. For this reason, a babe's time of waiting is called a time of GREAT TRIBULATION and the time of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought.

As a result of the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ and the babe's acceptance of Satan's false gospel, the babe will become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a MAN OF SIN/ANTI-CHRIST/BEAST WITH SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS & CROWNS. These spiritual terms represent all apostate babes. THERE WILL NOT BE A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL CALLED THE ANTI-CHRIST WHO RISES TO POWER AT THE LITERAL END OF THE AGE. That is a false teaching from spiritually blind apostate teachers.

The mixing of works with faith is the "sin that leads to death" (1John 5:16). It is founded upon the false Doctrine of Free Will. When a babe mixes works with faith, they have consumed the mixed wine presented in Prv 23:29-32 which I quoted above. This makes the pathway of Christ "crooked". Christ requires His pathway to be "straight" (faith alone) before He will appear to a babe for their conversion.

Since all babes fall away, how can an apostate babe be saved before they die?

For the ELECT babes ONLY, Christ will come again to them before they die and will pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism. This event will cause them to repent of their works which will restore their faith. With the pathway now made "straight", Christ will "appear" to them (the second coming) and convert them.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

AFTER AN ELECT PERSON IS CONVERTED, THEIR SALVATION IS ETERNALLY SECURE. The phrase "once saved, always saved" applies at this point.

Paul's conversion is the type that all elect believers will follow. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. He "typed" falling away during his three days in Damascus. After his three days were complete, Christ came again to Paul and poured out the Latter Rain. Paul’s spiritual blindness was then healed and the scales fell from his eyes. Christ then appeared and converted Paul. This was Paul's day of salvation.

For the apostate babes who are NOT elect, Christ will NOT give them the Latter Rain before they die. They will die in their sins and they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment/not literal fire). But because Christ came to save the world (1John 4:14), He will not forget the balance of unsaved mankind. In the final age, Christ will include MERCY, FAITH, AND JUSTICE during His judgment of the lost. His mercy will birth a new child of God and will leave the child of the Devil in the Lake of Fire to perish. This death will satisfy justice.

These verses apply:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun
(Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just (elect) and on the unjust (non-elect).


After the last person of mankind has been converted, the verses below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Joe
When you write so much how can anything be addressed..... I dont believe all will be saved....period
 

WHO ME

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Good, no confusion there

Quoting verses, who did Christ select to teach you how to be saved ?
Do you need help ?
Again before one can be saved by what paul says they FIRST HAVE TO KNOW WHO JESUS IS.... AND THATS MOSTLY IN THE BOOKS OF MATT MARK LUKE JOHN that we learn that..... we learn alot of who Jesus is by His words in those books.... I must know who he is and what he says before I believe
 

Dryhn

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Again before one can be saved by what paul says they FIRST HAVE TO KNOW WHO JESUS IS.... AND THATS MOSTLY IN THE BOOKS OF MATT MARK LUKE JOHN that we learn that..... we learn alot of who Jesus is by His words in those books.... I must know who he is and what he says before I believe
Who does Jesus select to teach you how to be saved ?
List the verses, not opinions
 

WHO ME

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There are people who believe paul is anti christ and there are people who believe you only listen to paul (dryhn)


I BELIEVE ALL THE GOSPELS WORK TOGETHER TOWARDS SALVATION
 

FaithWillDo

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FWD >>> but by giving each person the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Doesn't that only happen once they hear, trust & believe the gospel ?

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Dear Dryhn,
You asked:
Doesn't that only happen once they hear, trust & believe the gospel?

No, Christ gives the gift of the Early Rain (a small measure of the Holy Spirit) so that a person will believe and have faith. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul accepted Christ as His Lord. With the Early Rain, Paul would have continued in unbelief. Paul didn't receive the Latter Rain until three days later.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one (talking about the natural man): 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit happens when the Latter Rain is given. The Early Rain gives a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. Also, when Paul wrote Eph 1:13, the babes he was writing to were remaining faithful while they waited for Christ to return and pour out the Latter Rain. Shortly after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ consumed the babes in the churches. Since that time, no babe has remained faithful while they waited for Christ's return. They have all become indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ and have fallen away. I was no exception.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Because all babes fall away (including the elect babes), after Christ heals an elect babes spiritual blindness, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's temple). That is also when the man of sin is revealed to them and they find that they are the man of sin. It is a very humbling experience and purposely so.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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When you write so much how can anything be addressed..... I dont believe all will be saved....period
Dear Who Me,
Someday you will believe.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe
 

Dryhn

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Again I have to know WHO JESUS IS BEFORE I CAN BELIEVE ON HIS NAME....

I WILL ANSWER YOU NO MORE....
Jesus THROUGH His Apostles taught people how to be saved
In Gal 2:7-9
Who are you ?
Who is the Apostle chosen to teach you ?

Easy questions :)
 

Dryhn

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Dear Dryhn,
You asked:
Doesn't that only happen once they hear, trust & believe the gospel?

No, Christ gives the gift of the Early Rain (a small measure of the Holy Spirit) so that a person will believe and have faith. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul accepted Christ as His Lord. With the Early Rain, Paul would have continued in unbelief. Paul didn't receive the Latter Rain until three days later.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one (talking about the natural man): 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit happens when the Latter Rain is given. The Early Rain gives a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. Also, when Paul wrote Eph 1:13, the babes he was writing to were remaining faithful while they waited for Christ to return and pour out the Latter Rain. Shortly after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ consumed the babes in the churches. Since that time, no babe has remained faithful while they waited for Christ's return. They have all become indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ and have fallen away. I was no exception.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Because all babes fall away (including the elect babes), after Christ heals an elect babes spiritual blindness, they will see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's temple). That is also when the man of sin is revealed to them and they find that they are the man of sin. It is a very humbling experience and purposely so.

Joe
Hey Joe, a lot of well meaning commentary/interpretation there.

Spiritual gifts today - which ones ?
 

FaithWillDo

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Hey Joe, a lot of well meaning commentary/interpretation there.

Spiritual gifts today - which ones ?
Dear Dryhn,
I was converted in 2005 after unknowingly having been in the apostate church system for over 20 years. Upon my conversion, I was given the gift of knowledge and teaching. I have a website that teaches elect babes who have been given the Latter Rain but are still in need of learning the truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings. The website is shown under my username.
Joe
 

Dryhn

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Dear Dryhn,
I was converted in 2005 after unknowingly having been in the apostate church system for over 20 years. Upon my conversion, I was given the gift of knowledge and teaching. I have a website that teaches elect babes who have been given the Latter Rain but are still in need of learning the truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings. The website is shown under my username.
Joe
Eph 3:2-3
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;

Please list the verses re the teachings of Paul regarding the "Latter Rain"
TIA
 

Pierac

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Scripture itself speaks of salvation in all three tenses. Ephesians 2:8 says “you have been saved” (NASB), a completed action. First Corinthians 1:18 speaks of “us who are being saved” (NASB), an action still under way. Romans 5:9 says “we shall be saved from the wrath of God” (NASB), and Romans 13:11 tells the same readers that “our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed” (NIV).

Past, present, and future, applied to the same people in the same letters.

Western popular piety tends to collapse all three into the first. Ask a Christian when he was saved and the answer is often a year, and behind the year a prayer prayed once. That answer is not wrong. It simply accounts for one tense out of three. The present tense is where the language of transformation lives, and a completed transaction has no present tense. The Eastern question is not a different doctrine. It is the same salvation, heard in a tense the West rarely emphasizes.

The Eastern Christian imagination often asks, “Am I being transformed?” The Western imagination often asks, “Am I forgiven?”

Which one are you?
 
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FaithWillDo

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Dear Dryhn,
Water is the spirit word that represents the Holy Spirit. The Rain is the spirit word used for when the Holy Spirit is given to a person. The Early and Latter Rain concept is used in the farming analogy. However, Paul doesn't use this analogy very much.

Here are a couple of places that I found where he did:

Acts 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven (Early & Latter Rain), and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food (truth) and gladness.

Heb 6:7 For the earth (mankind) which drinketh in the rain (Early Rain) that cometh oft upon it (many are called), and bringeth forth herbs (babes in Christ) meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Below is a supporting verse from the OT:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Paul also used the marriage analogy. In that analogy, a "virgin" is the same as a "babe" who has received a small measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain). The virgin waits for the Bridegroom to return for the marriage (Latter Rain & conversion). In his letter to the Corinthian church, Paul is working with his virgins to keep them chaste (faithful) while they wait for the Bridegroom to return. After Paul's departing though, all the virgins in the church committed spiritual fornication with Satan and fell from grace. Spiritual fornication is the sin that leads to death. It is the sin of mixing works with faith.

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James uses the farming analogy in chapter 5. The time between the Early and Latter Rains was typed by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. It is during this time that a babe will fall away and spiritually die. The Latter Rain will restore the babe and cause them to produce their fruit (salvation).

Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain (Latter Rain), and the earth brought forth her fruit (spiritual fruit). 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Here are a few verses from the OT:

Psa 72:6 He shall come down like RAIN (Latter Rain) upon the mown grass (a fallen believer): as showers (Latter Rain) that water the earth.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN
(Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in a fallen away state).

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead
(mind of the Great Harlot), thou refusedst to be ashamed.

1Kin 8:36 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way
(the straight way of faith) wherein they should walk, and give RAIN (Latter Rain) upon thy land (the elect), which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance (life during the ages).

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain
(Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.


There are many, many analogies used in scripture that teach the pathway to salvation. The farming and marriage analogies are two of them.

Below is a place where Paul uses the Early and Latter Rain "concept" but does not mention "rain". Paul is speaking to the babes in the Corinthian church:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (they had received the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (Latter Rain & conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (judgment portion of conversion).

The "end" is the "end of the ages" and is when an elect person is converted:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Note: The end-time prophecies by Christ are teaching about the spiritual events that lead an elect person to their moment of conversion. They are not teaching about one-time outward world events that happen at the literal end of the age as most believe.

Joe
 
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PinSeeker

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You just confirmed that you believe in the Doctrine of Free Will.
Can you not make choices? I assume you made a choice to respond to me, yes? <smile>

If you have a free will, then you are saying that you are sovereign...
In what way, FWD? I think we're talking about sovereignty in much, much different senses. What you say here is not true at all. What do you think I think I'm sovereign over? I mean, myself, maybe, in a human sense. No, it really has nothing to do with sovereignty in the sense you are thinking of it. We agree that, in that sense, only God is sovereign; we are most certainly not. By saying men have free will, I am certainly not saying I am sovereign even remotely in the sense that God is.

If a person believes that they have an ability to choose Christ apart from Christ causing it to happen, they believe in free will.
<chuckles> We freely (and inevitably) choose Him... when we are given a new spirit... even God's Holy Spirit... so when we are born again by the Spirit. Unless and until that point, we will not choose Him, but otherwise, and freely so.

If a person does not believe that the elect have been chosen from the foundation of the world prior to them doing anything, then they believe in free will.

If a person believes that other people besides the elect can be saved in this age, they believe in free will.

If a person believes that they made a decision for Christ without first being given the Early Rain, they believe in free will.
All these things, FWD... I believe along the same lines as you. But it's really not a matter of whether the will is free or not, it is a matter of the state of the heart, at any given time the spirit of the person. If one is born again by the Spirit, then, because of this new spirit God puts into him/her (Ezekiel 11, 36), his or her will then becomes to do the will of God. Unless and until that point, his or her will is to do the will of his or her father the devil (John 6, 8, and 10, especially 8:44).

If a person believes that a person who rejects Christ does so by their own decision making, then they believe in free will.
To this, though, I would say that, similar to what I said above, unless and until one is given this new spirit by God, He or she will always reject Christ. So it's not that he or she does not have free will, but rather that he or she will never use it to choose God. This is the natural state of the heart, the natural spirit we have from birth, the natural human condition, and this is the result of Adam's fall in Genesis 3. He fell into a state of death, and, as Paul says in Romans 5:12, "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men..." It is the heart, the spirit of the person, that always drives the will. If the heart is changed ~ made to be of God, by God, by the work of His Spirit ~ then the will changes also ~ to do the will of God. So yes, who then can be saved? WIth man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible, as Jesus says to his disciples (and us by extension) in Luke 18:27.

So again, it's not about the will and whether it is free or not, it is about the state of the heart... whether one is a child of the devil or not ~ which we all are from birth, born sinful, just as David said of himself ~ or a child of God, which is only the case... again... when one is born again by the Spirit and thus of God. As John says in John 1:13, we are born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

I'll say again that it seems you and I agree on these things you have said, here, FWD. But it's not because we don't have free will, or that we are sovereign over God.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Scripture itself speaks of salvation in all three tenses. Ephesians 2:8 says “you have been saved” (NASB), a completed action. First Corinthians 1:18 speaks of “us who are being saved” (NASB), an action still under way. Romans 5:9 says “we shall be saved from the wrath of God” (NASB), and Romans 13:11 tells the same readers that “our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed” (NIV).

Past, present, and future, applied to the same people in the same letters.

Western popular piety tends to collapse all three into the first. Ask a Christian when he was saved and the answer is often a year, and behind the year a prayer prayed once. That answer is not wrong. It simply accounts for one tense out of three. The present tense is where the language of transformation lives, and a completed transaction has no present tense. The Eastern question is not a different doctrine. It is the same salvation, heard in a tense the West rarely emphasizes.

The Eastern Christian imagination often asks, “Am I being transformed?” The Western imagination often asks, “Am I forgiven?”

Which one are you?
Dear Pierac,
Faith gives us forgiveness and places us under grace. Faith also makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to "come again" and convert us. Conversion is the spiritual process that transforms us from a child of the Devil into a child of God (an actual spiritual change within us). Both faith and conversion are required for salvation.

Salvation is a spiritual process which follows a pathway that leads to our moment of conversion/salvation. The pathway begins for an elect person when they are given the Early Rain (a small measure of the Holy Spirit). At this point, they are in the process of being saved. They have been called to be a saint but are not a saint yet. They are also called a "babe" or "virgin". After a time of waiting, the Lord will return to the babe/virgin with the Latter Rain (the baptism) which will be immediately be followed by the judgment of the Day of the Lord. After the judgment is complete, the person is converted/saved.

During the judgment portion of conversion, the elect person is not judged in wrath because they were born as a child of God immediately beforehand.

For the balance of unsaved mankind when they are resurrected from the grave, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment (not literal fire). During that time of judgment, they will experience wrath for a time. But before anyone perishes, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy will come to them as the Early and Latter Rains which will give them faith and a new birth. The child of God will then be gathered to heaven, leaving the child of the Devil (who they used to be) to perish. This death will satisfy justice.

These verses apply to this judgment:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun
(Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just (elect) and on the unjust (non-elect).

Joe