Once saved always saved

[WHO ME]

Post 399: For any one person, if he or she is not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, he or she will not "become saved."

Post 400: Pinseeker Have a question, do you believe that everyone has the chance to be saved? (Disreguard the first line where it says pinseeker said)

Post 400: Yes
Grace and peace to you.

Post 399:
For any one person, if he or she is not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, he or she will not "become saved."

Post 400:I asked if everyone has a chance to be saved and you replied "YES"

So if God doesnt predestine them to be comformed to His image (they will not become saved)

How can all have the chance to be saved unless God predestines All... if He doesnt predestine all then all cannot have the chance to be saved correct?
Thanks again

 

[Taken]

Is the phrase "once saved, always saved" true? Yes! The keys to understanding this truth is knowing WHEN a person is actually saved and having a correct understanding of what it means to fall from grace.

Falling from grace is not a loss of salvation. Why? Because it can only happen to a believer before they are saved - and since they are not saved when they fall from grace, they cannot lose something that they did not have in the first place.

Here is the truth that scripture teaches about the apostasy (falling from grace):

Shortly after Paul's death, 100% of the babes (no sheep were spared) in the churches fell away and began teaching "perverse things" (Acts 20:29-31). Those perverse teachings quickly became common place and were fully accepted by orthodox Christianity. By the time John received the vision recorded in Revelation, the churches had already begun teaching and following "another gospel" - the one that Paul warned would come after his "departing". Nothing has changed over the centuries since that time, even up to today. The churches of this world are still following Satan's false gospel.

So how does Satan's gospel differ from the true Gospel of Christ?

Satan's gospel mixes the works of man with the works of Christ. The Old Covenant was based solely on the works of man for a person to be acceptable to God. It failed.

The New Covenant is based solely on the works of Christ for a person to be acceptable to God. It succeeds.

The two covenants should NOT be mixed together.

Prov 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine (Old & New Covenant mixed together). 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

In this age, when Christ decides to begin the SALVATION PROCESS within a person, He will come to them in their unbelieving spiritual state and freely (without their permission or asking for it) give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. In the farming analogy, the small measure of the Holy Spirit is called the Early Rain. The Early Rain will give a person a measure of faith and other gifts but it will leave them carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. Scripture calls this new believer a "babe" or "virgin". They have been called to be a saint but they are not a saint yet. This is when a person enters the church.

After Christ gives a person the Early Rain, they begin their time of waiting for Christ to return with their salvation. The time of waiting occurs between the Early and Latter Rains.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The time period of waiting is referred to as "time, times and a half, 3 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days". When you read a scripture that contains these terms, know that the verse is teaching on the spiritual events that occur to a babe between the Early and Latter Rains. During each babe's time of waiting for Christ to return to convert them, they will come under the deceptions of the spirit of anti-Christ and will fall away. They fall away because they have accepted Satan's false gospel which mixes works with faith. For this reason, a babe's time of waiting is called a time of GREAT TRIBULATION and the time of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought.

As a result of the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ and the babe's acceptance of Satan's false gospel, the babe will become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and will become a MAN OF SIN/ANTI-CHRIST/BEAST WITH SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS & CROWNS. These spiritual terms represent all apostate babes. THERE WILL NOT BE A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL CALLED THE ANTI-CHRIST WHO RISES TO POWER AT THE LITERAL END OF THE AGE. That is a false teaching from spiritually blind apostate teachers.

The mixing of works with faith is the "sin that leads to death" (1John 5:16). It is founded upon the false Doctrine of Free Will. When a babe mixes works with faith, they have consumed the mixed wine presented in Prv 23:29-32 which I quoted above. This makes the pathway of Christ "crooked". Christ requires His pathway to be "straight" (faith alone) before He will appear to a babe for their conversion.

Since all babes fall away, how can an apostate babe be saved before they die?

For the ELECT babes ONLY, Christ will come again to them before they die and will pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the baptism. This event will cause them to repent of their works which will restore their faith. With the pathway now made "straight", Christ will spiritually come and "appear" to them (the second coming). When Christ appears, He will commence the Day of the Lord within them. After this judgment is complete, the person will be converted and saved.

The verse below is teaching on the conversion event:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (Voice of Christ) and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

AFTER AN ELECT PERSON IS CONVERTED, THEY ARE SAVED AND THAT SALVATION IS ETERNALLY SECURE. The phrase "once saved, always saved" applies at this point.

For the apostate babes who are NOT elect, Christ will NOT give them the Latter Rain before they die. They will die in their sins and they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment/not literal fire). But because Christ came to save the world (1John 4:14), He will not forget the balance of unsaved mankind. In the final age, Christ will include MERCY, FAITH, AND JUSTICE during His judgment of the lost. His mercy will birth a new child of God and will leave the child of the Devil in the Lake of Fire to perish. This death will satisfy justice.

These verses apply:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just and on the unjust.

After the last person of mankind has been converted, the verses below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Joe

Correct.

Many have an “argument” …

They saying…”You can “NOT LOSE” Salvation without First “Having Received” Salvation…thus “deny OSAS”…

Fact is “Salvation is a Gift Offering”
A man “Who Never reaches out and Takes the Offering… Loses the Gift “.

Why did ADAM bodily die?
Because on his way Out of the Garden… he DID NOT reach out and Take and Eat from the Tree of Life…(that which had been Offered TO him.)
Gen 3:22


Failed “Understanding”!

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Peter1]

As long as you don't become luke warm in you faith which is the danger here.Which has be warned about in Revelations.

 

[Dryhn]

First you must find out about who you are believing in (Jesus) you find that information mostly from what Jesus himself said in matt mark luke john.... You have to know what it is your asked to believe....easy answer....


Paul may teach gentiles about being saved but you FIRST have to understand who Jesus is... what He says what He teaches and hearing those things you decide if you believe or not...... you seem to bypass this part and go straight to paul..... slow down..:)

Christ taught all his Apostles.

Gal 2:7-9
Who are you in those verses ?
Who did they agree teaches you ?

Easy question for someone as knowledgeable as yourself :)

 

[Dryhn]

First you must find out about who you are believing in (Jesus) you find that information mostly from what Jesus himself said in matt mark luke john.... You have to know what it is your asked to believe....easy answer....


Paul may teach gentiles about being saved but you FIRST have to understand who Jesus is... what He says what He teaches and hearing those things you decide if you believe or not...... you seem to bypass this part and go straight to paul..... slow down..:)

Christ taught ALL his Apostles

Gal 2:7-9
Who are you ?
Who teaches you the Gospel ?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Well, to you. I get it. But I say, really... from what you are saying... you're really kind of confusing yourself. I don't mean to disparage you in any way, but that's what you're doing.


To you, maybe, but, um...

I don't even know what that means. Yeah, free will is free will. Goodness gracious.


I took a quick look back through your posts to me, and I don't see where you ever asked me why I am saved and others or not going to be saved... But okay, I'll answer it, but more generally than just about me... All of His elect are or will be the ones saved, and the others will not be. And this is because... Well, God Himself says through Moses in Exodus 33, and Paul quotes in Romans 9, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And the very strong insinuation here is, not everyone will be given this mercy and compassion.


Well, there's this thing called justice... <smile> God is perfect in justice... absolutely just. All are undeserving of His great salvation, and in fact deserving of precisely the opposite. But some... those of His choosing ~ His elect ~ He has mercy and compassion on, and others He does not. And, as Creator, this is His right; He is the potter, and we are the clay. Just as Paul says in Romans 9:19-24.

Do you believe He will save all of mankind? Because that's surely not the case. Now He could, by having this mercy and compassion on all, but we know that not to be the case. All have fallen short of the glory of God. But, as I said ~ but not just me; Paul and Peter, among other writers in the Bible, clearly say that ~ some He chooses to give this salvific grace... unmerited favor. And that favor is unmerited, which necessarily means that none of our works can possibly earn us salvation. It must be because of the work of Christ on the cross and God's grace in applying it to any one of us.


<chuckles> See directly above.


Absolutely. But I'm not sure you understand that correctly... <smile> Do you believe that God wills salvation on all people, but that His purpose at least sometimes fail? That what He purposes regarding any one person can possibly be thwarted? I hope not... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Dear Pinseeker,
God loves all mankind and will save all mankind. The elect are first fruits of the harvest. The main harvest of mankind will be at the end of the final age. At that time, God will be all in all (1Cor 15:22-28).

Consider the verse below:

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

I present this verse quite often in my forum posts. Those who can't accept what it teaches will say that even though salvation is a free gift, it must still be accepted by the individual. In other words, they are saying that Christ can't save a person because their "will" of rejecting Him is just too strong for Him to overcome. This is nonsense.

Christ will do all that is necessary to change the person's heart and mind and He does so by giving the person the Early and Latter Rains. Christ does not ask the person for permission to give them this gift. He gives it to them because He is God and He has that right. After the gift is given, their heart and mind will change and they will confess that Jesus is Lord after hearing the Word.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Do you deny that Christ wants to save all mankind? Certainly His Father wants Him to save all mankind since He sent Jesus to the earth to accomplish it.

As for Satan, he does the same with the spirit of anti-Christ. Satan doesn't ask a person if they would like to receive his gift. He gives it to them without their permission or knowledge. After he gives them his gift, their heart and mind will be made "worse than the first". Then with the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling the person, they have the mark of the beast. And since a babe only has a measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain), Satan will win the spiritual war within the person. After he does, the babe will be a "man of sin" who is dwelling in "peace and safety" in Satan's church.

Here is how Christ describes this spiritual process:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

Mankind believes that they have some magical power to thwart God and Satan but they do not. They both freely act within mankind without their permission or knowledge.

Back to Christ...

Consider this scripture about Peter:

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter was given the Early Rain beforehand and he didn't have a clue that he had been given it. God didn't ask him for his permission to accept the gift - God didn't give him any say in the matter. In fact, Peter was clueless about having the Holy Spirit within him. But we can know that Peter was given this gift because he made his confession to Christ.

One final point...

You made a comment about justice. Justice is served by the destruction of the child of the Devil. Conversion creates the new child of God beforehand so that the person doesn't perish when the child of the devil is destroyed. All mankind will experience conversion because that is what is required to be saved.

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

If you are still not able to accept the scriptures that I have presented, this is probably a good time to end our discussion.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Correct.

Many have an “argument” …

They saying…”You can “NOT LOSE” Salvation without First “Having Received” Salvation…thus “deny OSAS”…

Fact is “Salvation is a Gift Offering”
A man “Who Never reaches out and Takes the Offering… Loses the Gift “.

Why did ADAM bodily die?
Because on his way Out of the Garden… he DID NOT reach out and Take and Eat from the Tree of Life…(that which had been Offered TO him.)
Gen 3:22


Failed “Understanding”!

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

Dear Taken,
I just made a post to Pinseeker (#406) which addresses the comment you made above. It is a false belief that mankind can refuse salvation. Salvation is not an offer, it is a free gift that is given without mankind's permission.
Joe

 

[WHO ME]

Christ taught all his Apostles.

Gal 2:7-9
Who are you in those verses ?
Who did they agree teaches you ?

Easy question for someone as knowledgeable as yourself :)

Your a smart a....

You cannot believe on His name until you understand who it is your trusting in...

 

[Dryhn]

Your a smart a....

You cannot believe on His name until you understand who it is your trusting in...

They are 2 simple questions, why are you unable to answer ?
Gal 2:7-9
Who are you ?
Who teaches you the gospel ?

 

[WHO ME]

Christ taught all his Apostles.

Gal 2:7-9
Who are you in those verses ?
Who did they agree teaches you ?

Easy question for someone as knowledgeable as yourself :)

Your a smart a

They are 2 simple questions, why are you unable to answer ?
Gal 2:7-9
Who are you ?
Who teaches you the gospel ?

Until you understand you have to know what it is your believing in before paul can tell you anything I cant keep going over and again with you..... last post to you

 

[Dryhn]

Your a smart a

Until you understand you have to know what it is your believing in before paul can tell you anything I cant keep going over and again with you..... last post to you

Gal 2:7-9
Who are you ?
Who teaches you the gospel ?

 

[PinSeeker]

... if He doesnt predestine all then all cannot have the chance to be saved correct?

No, really, we consigned ourselves to death in Adam, the federal head of the human race (Romans 5:12). When we are born, our father is the devil, and we will do his will... unless and until God intervenes and gives us life in Christ.

From our perspective, the human perspective, we all have that chance. Paul says in Romans that those who will not be saved, are not saved, have exchanged the truth for a lie. That, WHO ME, is a voluntary action on their part. It also means they know the truth... and know that what they exchange that truth for is a lie. Therefore... they have no excuse.

A final comment: we do not know who all God's elect are. And there are many who, right now, are members of God's elect but don't know it yet. <smile> At any rate, yes, God chooses who of His created to conform to Christ's image. If you have a problem with that, then your problem is with God, not me. Grace and peace to you.

Dear Pinseeker,
God loves all mankind...

Yes, but not in the same way. He says He loved Jacob, but hated Esau. And so it is for every member of the human race; we are either like Jacob or like Esau. This loving and hating... we have to do something with that; we cannot just ignore it.

and will save all mankind.

Then why do we read things like:

• ...what Paul said in Romans 8:29 about "those whom He foreknew," obviously not all mankind but a limited number
• ...and what Jesus said in John 5:28-29, that an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment
• ...and why do many folks... depart from Christ (at His command) and enter into this eternal punishment, this "lake of fire" (Matthew 25:41-46, Revelation 20:11-15)?

Obviously, not all mankind will be saved.

The elect are first fruits of the harvest. The main harvest of mankind will be at the end of the final age. At that time, God will be all in all (1Cor 15:22-28).

A terrible conflation.

All mankind will experience conversion because that is what is required to be saved.

Sadly, no. Not all are given this salvific faith, which is God's assurance of salvation (Hebrews 11:1). That is what is required. Not all will be converted to Christ, because, well, God has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills (Romans 9:18), and He is the Potter and we are the clay, and as such He has the right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use. Desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, He has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called... again, a limited number; He does not call others in this way... not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9:19-24).

If you are still not able to accept the scriptures that I have presented, this is probably a good time to end our discussion.

Right, I most certainly do not, not in the context or spirit in which you offer them. Right, a good time to end it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Salvation is not an offer, it is a free gift that is given without mankind's permission.

Well, it's both an offer and a free gift. <smile> The offer, or invitation, goes out to all; no one is... ineligible. <smile> But yes, it is given by God as a gift (Ephesians 2). As for mankind's permission... <smile> ...no man can do anything when he is dead (in his sin), which he is from birth. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:4 and following)... And then we are thankful, especially knowing how undeserving we were... The next time you sing "Amazing Grace" (if you do, I guess), think about just how amazing the grace of God really is...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dryhn]

Well, it's both an offer and a free gift. <smile> The offer, or invitation, goes out to all; no one is... ineligible. <smile> But yes, it is given by God as a gift (Ephesians 2). As for mankind's permission... <smile> ...no man can do anything when he is dead (in his sin), which he is from birth. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved..." (Ephesians 2:4 and following)... And then we are thankful, especially knowing how undeserving we were... The next time you sing "Amazing Grace" (if you do, I guess), think about just how amazing the grace of God really is...

Grace and peace to you.

and that free gift does not have performance conditions attached to it <smile>
Eph 2:8-9 <smile>
Titus 3:5-7 <smile>
Gal 2:16 <smile>
Rom 3:28 <smile>
Rom 4:5 <smile>
Rom 5:1 <smile>

 

[WHO ME]

Pinseeker in Post 399 you said:
For any one person, if he or she is not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, he or she will not "become saved."
( which means God decides)

In post 400 you said: all have the chance to be saved..


So which is it? If God doesnt predestine someone then that someone has no chance

 

[Dryhn]

Pinseeker in Post 399 you said:
For any one person, if he or she is not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, he or she will not "become saved."
( which means God decides)

In post 400 you said: all have the chance to be saved..


So which is it? If God doesnt predestine someone then that someone has no chance

You want us to listen to you yet you don't know who you are & who Christ selected as apostle to teach you how to be saved.
Gal 2:7-9 has the answer
Want to give it a try ? :)

 

[Kayla McCanny]

*face palm* we decide if we want to be Christians or not. We choose to accept or not. It isn't set in stone.

 

[Dryhn]

*face palm* we decide if we want to be Christians or not. We choose to accept or not. It isn't set in stone.

Yes, it's offered then we either accept or reject

 

[prism]

Jonah 2:9b ESV
Salvation belongs to the LORD!"...not man

 

[prism]

*face palm* we decide if we want to be Christians or not. We choose to accept or not. It isn't set in stone.

John 1:13 ESV
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.