Once saved always saved

[Eternally Grateful]

No I think all sin is willful... but it is not talking about a sin here or there... it is talking about being entangled and overcome back into your old lifestyle completely.. (no more relationship with Christ)

V25) is addressing believers
V26) does not say willfully reject Christ as the reason theres no more sacrifice but SIN
So sin is the reason. If we sin willfully AFTER WE HAVE RECIEVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
V29 (the willful sinner) has counted the blood of the covenant (son of God) wherewith HE WAS SANCTIFIED

Are unbelievers ever sanctified?

V38) now the JUST (BELIEVERS) shall live by faith - IF ANY MAN DRAWS BACK GOD HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

A REJECTOR OF CHRIST (as you say) is never considered JUST and God never has PLEASURE in him....


V39 but WE are not THOSE WHO FALL BACK to destruction.

A rejector of Christ never leaves destruction so he certainly cannot fall back

The writer compares himself by saying he is not like them who fall back to destruction - meaning the difference is that the writer wont fall back to willfully sinning

Pretty clear this chapter is talking about believers... you must believe osas so you have to try and see it as unbelievers...

John says we can not do this

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I am amazed at people who do not understand the change God instills in his children.. I can only fathom it comes from a legalistic mindset that you have to perform to be saved. and not a grace perspective that God changes you from the inside

 

[PinSeeker]

and that free gift does not have performance conditions attached to it <smile>

Ah, another failed "gotcha"... <chuckles> Salvation is not conditional. <smile> If it were, none of us would... pass... That doesn't mean, however, that we're not, um, well, obligated, in a way, to do anything, though. <smile> Once saved, we have this new spirit, and, well, in Paul's words, we're created (by God; we are His workmanship) for good works, that we might walk in them. As a result of being born again, and not of God, our heart is no longer a heart of stone, and we walk in the Spirit ~ we have the Spirit ~ and He bears His fruit through us.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Taken]

Dear Taken,
I just made a post to Pinseeker (#406) which addresses the comment you made above. It is a false belief that mankind can refuse salvation. Salvation is not an offer, it is a free gift that is given without mankind's permission.
Joe

Hi Joe-
I would like to offer you a suggestion.
The book of Hebrews is an excellent study on this topic.
Heb 7 … highlight 7:27
Heb 10 …highlight 10:10

Since Scripture repeatedly uses the words…
all, we, us. our, they, them, I, me, mine, you, yours, his, he…etc. (possessive)

Consider in all study, context, “who”, (possesses) what, when, “why”, how, where.

This post …a Long synopsis…yet in Brief …
About a 10 min read.

The Lord God Almighty, possesses the spiritual “Gift of Salvation.”

It is His Gift…to OFFER…to whom He pleases.
Offered TO Animals? No
…WHY NOT?
Because Animals do not, can Not SIN.
…Because they have Not the capacity TO Distinguish a Truth from a Lie.

Offered TO Angels? Yes.
…WHY?
Because Angels were Created with…
* Everlasting Life.
* The Truth of God IN Them.
* FREEWILL to Remain With God or Reject Him.

Offered TO ALL Humans? Yes,
WHY?
Because ALL are naturally Born IN SIN;
Ie. (Against God via their NON -Belief).

…FREEWILL, Terms, Caveats, Options.
…To Accept …or NOT

* * * TERMS;
* True BELIEF (IN their Heart):
* The Lord God Almighty EXISTS.
* The Lord God Almighty IS the Creator and Maker OF All things.
* Allegiance TO Him ONLY.

* * * CAVEATS;
* Accepting OF Another Spirit Above The Lord God Almighty.
* Making an Allegiance TO Another Over and Above… The Lord God Almighty.

***OPTIONS;
* 1) Deny / Reject The Lord God Almighty
* 2) HeartFully Believe IN the Lord God Almighty…
“Without” Making a vow of “Allegiance”.
* 3) HeartFully Believe IN the Lord God Almighty…
“With “ Making a Vow of “Allegiance”.

***RESULTS
(1)…The Lord God Almighty, will Accept your Rejection / Denial…
AND…Reject and Deny You.
AND …
Will Blot out your Name from His Book of Life.
Will NOT restore /Save your Soul;
Will NOT Quicken / Give you His Seed, to birth you a new spirit.
Depart His Life from your soul.
AND …
Throw your lifeless Body and Lifeless Soul into the Lake of Fire IN Hell.
AND
Remember you no more.

(2)…At the time of your natural, physical, mortal bodily Death, the Lord God Almighty Shall Search your Heart For your TRUE Belief…
AND “IF” your True Heartful Belief “IS” IN the Lord, IN God, IN the Almighty…
* Right then…Your body Must mortally Die…Your body, soul, spirit shall be Forgiven, For having HAD Sinned Against The Lord God Almighty (ie. Had before Not believed).
* God Shall “NOT” blot your Name out of His Book of Life.
* God Shall Keep His Life IN your Soul.
* God Shall Quicken (Birth again) your spirit.
* God Shall Raise UP your Body (on Earth),
On the Day of The First Mass Resurrection…
Make Your Body…
Alive (Forever), Glorified (without Sin) and Return TO your Body, your Restored (Saved) soul, AND your Quickened (Born Again spirit, born of Gods Seed).
And Thus Forward… You Will Live Forever With the Lord God Almighty ON Earth, that has been Renewed and Adjoined With Heaven.
AND SEE God, As He IS…Spirit.
* The Kingdom of Heaven and Earth Shall Be your Home Forever…
And the Lord God Almighty your King and God Forever, and You a part of Gods Beloved people.

3) Heartful True Belief
AND
Your Word / Confession / Testimony / Vow / Allegiance of that Belief, MADE TO the Lord Jesus…?
* Your Heart is Searched…that your Word/ Testimony/ CONFESSION IS TRUE…
* Found TO BE True?
* Your CONFESSION is Accepted.
* Your Body IS accepted CRUCIFIED (Dead) With Jesus.
* Your body, soul, spirit IS FORGIVEN For Having HAD SINNED (ie having had NOT Believed IN the Lord God Almighty)
* Your Name shall Remain in Gods Book of Life.
* Your soul IS Restored (Saved).
* Your spirit IS Quickened (Born of Gods Seed).
* Your whole, body, soul, spirit IS:
Sealed, with The Lord God Almighty’s … Seal of Power and Authority That no Other can Claim : Redeem you.
* Sanctified…set Apart From all others Without Gods Seal.
* Your NAME IS Entered Once and Forever, into The Lambs Book of Life.
* You Live IN Christ Jesus’ Risen Body, (Called “IN” Christ), (Until your own body mortally Dies, IS Raised UP, in its Own Glorified Body.).
* Your Raising UP IS on the Day, the Lord Calls you To Meet Him, Face to Face, TO See Him as He IS, Spirit.
* Your Raising UP, IS ABOVE The Earth, (while other UN-Confessed believers, ON Earth…Non- Believers, ARE suffering the Consequences of…
* The Lambs Wrath…and Tribulations
* The Devils Wrath…and Tribulations
* Gods Wrath…and Tribulations
For men, Who Have MADE no “commitment” TO the Lord God, and They Who Have MADE A commitment TO Any Other.

Continued

 

[Taken]

Continued

Wrath and Tribulations ARE sanctioned Authorized BY God To Be Sent Down Upon The Whole Earth…Against “the unrighteous inhabitants of the Earth.”
The ONLY men SEALED…UPON the Earth… ARE 144,000 of the Tribes of ISRAEL, who Have AN Express Mission to Fulfill “During the Trib”…TO Fulfill Gods Ancient Promise / Covenant TO Save His People Israel.

Before the Wrath and Tribulations From Heaven Upon the Earth…
Christ the Lord Jesus, Fulfills His Promise TO Those men, Who …
* Are Fully Prepared…MADE Wholly Whole, body, soul, spirit…
*Confessed their True Heartful Belief..
*Who Willingly Laid down unto Death their Bodily Life… with Jesus.
*who were forgiven,
*who were soul restored,
*Who were spirit quickened,
* who were sanctified, justified, Recorded IN the Lambs Book Of Life..
*** THAT… the Lord Has the Authority and Power TO Fulfill Gods Word… THAT THEY “IN Christ”…
* Be Delivered From / Escaped From the Wrath and Tribulations to BE Sent Upon the Whole Earth.
* THE RAPTURE…ie.
Bodily Raising UP OFF the Earth…
Is the Lords Obedience to God…
AND
The Lords Promise to converted men…they are NOT appointed to Suffer Wrath From Heaven…
Their body, is Raised in Glory (to the clouds).
Their Saved soul and Quickened spirit, Are returned to their New Body…
In Gods Kingdom…(lower heavens).
In Gods Presence…
With Gods Blessing..
His Son IS Officially WED to His “Bride”
(They IN Christ, Christs Church members).
Officially, with Ceremony…ARE the Sealed Receiving THEIR MARK OF God (His Name) in their New body’s Forehead. )

After… the Wrath and Tribulations From Heaven Upon the Earth conclude…

The Groom, Son, Christ the Lord Jesus…
Returns TO Earth…
With His Bride…
With His holy Servant Angels..
TO Claim His Inheritance…Kingdom.
* Abraham’s Promised Land…
* king Davids Everlasting Throne…
* His Title, King of kings, Lord of Lords.

And THERE outside of His Kingdom…on Earth…
Shall be…
Mortals, Unsaved, Believing men, (not mortally Killed during the wrath and Tribulations sent from Heaven)
Who shall, repopulate, build towns, cities, nations, appoint kings, establish their borders, trade, get along…
… Their kings / lords (ie. Governments / Governors) will be taught the Word of God, To Teach “their citizens”…
… ALL without the “Influence of Satan’s or his angels presence…. For a duration of 1,000 years.

Fact IS…during that 1,000 years…human men, will not war, will prosper, enjoy having all needs met, Food, Shelter, Good Health, Lords Education…
and
Wants…met… Peace, Comfort, no Fears.

Until… Satan and his angels Are Returned to Earth…and AGAIN Tickles the Ears of mortals With Lies…That “They” have the Power (with Satan) to OVER- throw The Lords Power and Authority…and Claim His Kingdom… For Satan and “themselves”.

Then Shall be Fulfilled…the Prophecy that All Nations Shall come Against Israel.

Then Shall be Fulfilled…the Prophecy that Fire Shall rain down from Heaven, and Destroy them (humans) All.

Then shall be Fulfilled…the Prophecy that holy and demonic Angels shall battle, and the holy angels Victorious.

Then shall be Fulfilled…mortal Life shall cease to Exist.

Satan & his angels… will be sent to the Lake of Fire…suffer Alive Forever… their eternal Separation From God.

Then shall, the Prophecy be fulfilled…
OF the First Mass Resurrection Of All bodies who Mortally Died IN Belief… Who were NOT… saved BY Christ the Lord, BEFORE their Mortal Deaths (saved by crucifixion with Jesus’ Body)… And Raptured..
… They ARE Returned Earth, in Glorified Bodies, and their saved soul and quickened spirit returned to the Earth To Dwell with Their Lord…aND experience Witnessing Seeing A New Earth and Heaven Replace the Old……(They on a new Earth, Adjoined with Heaven)… forever… and with their Lord God Forever and Forever He Be With Them.

Context, Order and Way, Matters.
Some are First, Some are Last, and Some are forever Remembered No more.

God bless you.

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[FaithWillDo]

Continued...

God bless you.

Glory To God,
Taken

Dear Taken,
You are not understanding what conversion is and why it is necessary for salvation.

Conversion gives birth to the child of God (by the baptism of the Holy Spirit/Latter Rain). This new birth is immediately followed by the judgment and death of the child of the Devil - the spiritual components/chaff that has made the person carnal and sinful.

This scripture applies to conversion:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit (birth of the child of God), and with Fire (destruction of the child of the devil).

With a true understanding of conversion, let's look at the verse below:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The only one who can believe in Christ is the child of God because only the child of God has the Holy Spirit. The only one who cannot believe is the child of the Devil who lacks the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Since all mankind has sinned and lacks the Holy Spirit, all mankind are children of the Devil. And because of such, all mankind is condemned already.

The verse below applies to the destruction of the child of the devil which happens during the judgment portion of conversion (the baptism of Fire):

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind).

In this present age, Christ is only converting/saving the people who have been chosen for an early salvation. They are the elect. Christ will not do His spiritual work of conversion within anyone else. Their fate is the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the final age. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for judgment. It is not literal fire.

Since Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment, He will not omit MERCY, FAITH, AND JUSTICE during each lost person's time of judgment.

The verses below describe Christ's judgment:

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Prov 28:5 Evil men (all mankind which includes unconverted babes in the church) understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness AND JUDGMENT: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just (the elect) and on the unjust (everyone else).

Christ's mercy will manifest itself as the Early and Latter Rains which He will freely give to the "lost". With the Holy Spirit now indwelling each lost person, they will be born again as a child of God. With this new birth, the person will also have the faith they need to make Christ's pathway "straight" for Him to appear and commence His judgment upon the child of the Devil (who the person used to be). From this judgment, the child of the devil will perish. This death will satisfy justice. After the death of the child of the devil, the person will be fully converted into a child of God. This is mankind's salvation that Christ came to freely give us.

This scripture applies to Christ's judgment of the lost in the Lake of Fire:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he (the elect) shall receive a reward (life during the ages with Christ). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire).

After Christ has converted the last person of mankind, the verses below will be testified to be true:

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Restated by Paul:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

 

[Taken]

Dear Taken,
You are not understanding what conversion is and why it is necessary for salvation.

Disagree .

Conversion gives birth to the child of God (by the baptism of the Holy Spirit/Latter Rain). This new birth is immediately followed by the judgment and death of the child of the Devil - the spiritual components/chaff that has made the person carnal and sinful.

Okay.

This scripture applies to conversion:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:

No, water baptism does not apply to conversion.

but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit (birth of the child of God), and with Fire (destruction of the child of the devil).

Shall… when?

With a true understanding of conversion, let's look at the verse below:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is a Notice, not a Conversion.

The only one who can believe in Christ is the child of God

No. Belief is the man’s FREEWILL.
Even an unsaved natural man’s WORD of Belief…then Verified…
Is that mans WORD Accepted … Before Given Salvation!

Gods Love of all men Was Revealed When…
All men were Still Sinners…(AGAINST God)…
God gave to men… the Offering of Christs Dead Body, For a man’s OPTION, to also give his own body…and Receive Salvation…
Once and Forever.

Rom 8:
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

because only the child of God has the Holy Spirit.

True.

The only one who cannot believe is the child of the Devil who lacks the Holy Spirit.

Uh… no. Men can not believe in God or Satan.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Since all mankind has sinned and lacks the Holy Spirit, all mankind are children of the Devil.

No.

And because of such, all mankind is condemned already.

They condemned lack Belief IN God.

The verse below applies to the destruction of the child of the devil which happens during the judgment portion of conversion (the baptism of Fire):

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind).

Nothing to do with Satan.
That is many dying for their Belief in God.
(During the Trib)

In this present age, Christ is only converting/saving the people who have been chosen for an early salvation. They are the elect. Christ will not do His spiritual work of conversion within anyone else.

Israel is Gods Elect…majority receive their Salvation during the Trib.

Christ Jesus will Save anyone, Jew or Gentile, who Confess true Belief.

Their fate is the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the final age.

The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for judgment. It is not literal fire.

Disagree.

Since Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment, He will not omit MERCY, FAITH, AND JUSTICE during each lost person's time of judgment.

The verses below describe Christ's judgment:

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

True… His Judgement is Just.

Prov 28:5 Evil men (all mankind which includes unconverted babes in the church)

Baby’s are not cognitively prepared to Agree to a Conversion.
Should they Die as A babe, little child…
Their Heart is Searched…If they would have in the future Repented and Believed…They shall be Saved.

understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Sure.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness AND JUDGMENT: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Yes.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Yes.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just (the elect) and on the unjust (everyone else).

Yes.

Christ's mercy will manifest itself as the Early and Latter Rains which He will freely give to the "lost". With the Holy Spirit now indwelling each lost person, they will be born again as a child of God.

No. The Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in Unbelievers…aka the Lost.

Gods Mercy…to men who have Rejected Him…
IS… they ARE NOT given a reborn Everlasting spirit (that can not die)…
Thus… do not Live Forever…Separated FROM God.

With this new birth, the person will also have the faith they need to make Christ's pathway "straight" for Him to appear and commence His judgment upon the child of the Devil (who the person used to be). From this judgment, the child of the devil will perish. This death will satisfy justice. After the death of the child of the devil, the person will be fully converted into a child of God. This is mankind's salvation that Christ came to freely give us.

They who Bodily Die… Against God … are NOT Saved.

This scripture applies to Christ's judgment of the lost in the Lake of Fire:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he (the elect) shall receive a reward (life during the ages with Christ). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire).

This applies TO EVERY man’s Works,,,(Saved or Not)…
It is Gods Grace to Reward Every man’s Works. That which Glorified God…
And All works of Every man (Saved or not)… whose works Did Not Gloryify God, such works shall be burned.

After Christ has converted the last person

of mankind,

Of “heartful Believing” Mankind

the verses below will be testified to be true:

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Yes… Saved, unsaved, Shall See … “the Son of man”… Gods Salvation.

Continued…

 

[Taken]

Continued

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Yes… they who confessed Belief.
Yes… they who mortally died in unbelief…
All body’s shall be raised in their Order…
And all will bow and worship Him.

Don’t ignore… many who see Him will believe, because they See Him…
Remember … When their body was alive with its Life (Blood) they rejected Him.
Their Body IS ONLY present, alert, Because their Living soul was returned to their Body…
There is still No Life (blood) of their body to confess Belief… it’s their Living soul doing the worshiping, controlling their dead body.
They missed the mark… to have their body transformed.
Salvations applies to a man MADE Whole… soul, spirit AND Body.

Restated by Paul:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

Yes.

You appear to favor… Gods transformation without a mans “FREEWILL to Agree.

You appear to favor… Gods Restoration. Quickening, Salvation TO Every Mans Body, soul. spirit.

I disagree.
Seeing Jesus. Bowing down to Jesus, Worshipping God…
Is Not the End means to Receive Salvation…

It is… true belief IN the Lord God Almighty, in ones Heart…BEFORE their Bodily Death.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[FaithWillDo]

Continued

Yes… they who confessed Belief.
Yes… they who mortally died in unbelief…
All body’s shall be raised in their Order…
And all will bow and worship Him.

Don’t ignore… many who see Him will believe, because they See Him…
Remember … When their body was alive with its Life (Blood) they rejected Him.
Their Body IS ONLY present, alert, Because their Living soul was returned to their Body…
There is still No Life (blood) of their body to confess Belief… it’s their Living soul doing the worshiping, controlling their dead body.
They missed the mark… to have their body transformed.
Salvations applies to a man MADE Whole… soul, spirit AND Body.

Yes

Yes.

You appear to favor… Gods transformation without a mans “FREEWILL to Agree.

You appear to favor… Gods Restoration. Quickening, Salvation TO Every Mans Body, soul. spirit.

I disagree.
Seeing Jesus. Bowing down to Jesus, Worshipping God…
Is Not the End means to Receive Salvation…

It is… true belief IN the Lord God Almighty, in ones Heart…BEFORE their Bodily Death.

Glory to God,
Taken

Dear Taken,
The Doctrine of Free Will is a lie from Satan which he uses to deceive babes in the church that salvation requires a mixture of man's works with the works of Christ. However, when a babe accepts this lie, they have drunk mixed wine and have committed the sin that leads to death.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine (Old & New Covenant mixed together). 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

It is the sin of mixing works with faith which caused the apostasy of the church. The apostasy began near the end of the 1st century AD and has continue even up to today.

Concerning your comment on the children of the devil...

Since all mankind sins, all mankind are children of the Devil:

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil (his children); for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And since a child of the Devil is void of the Holy Spirit and cannot have faith in Christ, all mankind is condemned already and will perish in the Lake of Fire. For this reason, it is necessary for Christ to convert mankind into a new creation before each person's death sentence is carried out. Only the new creation (a child of God) can believe. Because this is the case, Christ will come to each and every person who has ever lived and freely (without their permission) give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. A person's "will" plays no part in it. Christ does it because of His love for us and because He is our God & Creator and has that right:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

 

[Kayla McCanny]

Disagree .

Okay.

No, water baptism does not apply to conversion.

Shall… when?



That is a Notice, not a Conversion.

No. Belief is the man’s FREEWILL.
Even an unsaved natural man’s WORD of Belief…then Verified…
Is that mans WORD Accepted … Before Given Salvation!

Gods Love of all men Was Revealed When…
All men were Still Sinners…(AGAINST God)…
God gave to men… the Offering of Christs Dead Body, For a man’s OPTION, to also give his own body…and Receive Salvation…
Once and Forever.

Rom 8:
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.





True.

Uh… no. Men can not believe in God or Satan.



No.

They condemned lack Belief IN God.

Nothing to do with Satan.
That is many dying for their Belief in God.
(During the Trib)

Israel is Gods Elect…majority receive their Salvation during the Trib.

Christ Jesus will Save anyone, Jew or Gentile, who Confess true Belief.



Disagree.

True… His Judgement is Just.

Baby’s are not cognitively prepared to Agree to a Conversion.
Should they Die as A babe, little child…
Their Heart is Searched…If they would have in the future Repented and Believed…They shall be Saved.

Sure.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No. The Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in Unbelievers…aka the Lost.

Gods Mercy…to men who have Rejected Him…
IS… they ARE NOT given a reborn Everlasting spirit (that can not die)…
Thus… do not Live Forever…Separated FROM God.

They who Bodily Die… Against God … are NOT Saved.

This applies TO EVERY man’s Works,,,(Saved or Not)…
It is Gods Grace to Reward Every man’s Works. That which Glorified God…
And All works of Every man (Saved or not)… whose works Did Not Gloryify God, such works shall be burned.



Of “heartful Believing” Mankind

Yes… Saved, unsaved, Shall See … “the Son of man”… Gods Salvation.

Continued…

I agree with you

 

[Dryhn]

Ah, another failed "gotcha"... <chuckles> Salvation is not conditional. <smile> If it were, none of us would... pass... That doesn't mean, however, that we're not, um, well, obligated, in a way, to do anything, though. <smile> Once saved, we have this new spirit, and, well, in Paul's words, we're created (by God; we are His workmanship) for good works, that we might walk in them. As a result of being born again, and not of God, our heart is no longer a heart of stone, and we walk in the Spirit ~ we have the Spirit ~ and He bears His fruit through us.

Grace and peace to you.

Scripture baffles you <chuckle> <roflmao><headspins>
Eph 2:8-9
Gal 2:16
Titus 3:5-7
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1

 

[FaithWillDo]

I agree with you

Dear Kayla,
Yes, water baptism does not apply to salvation. I never said that it did. What does apply to salvation (conversion) is the last portion of the verse which Taken seemed to ignore:

Mat 3:11...he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment) are the two baptisms that matter - and they are both spiritual baptisms.

Water baptism is only given to a person after they have received the Early Rain and have made a confession of faith. The water baptism represents the spiritual baptism that will come later after their time of waiting is complete.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This concept also applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural baptism is with physical water and it comes first. The spiritual baptism is with the Holy Spirit and it comes second.

Joe

 

[Dryhn]

Dear Kayla,
Yes, water baptism does not apply to salvation. I never said that it did. What does apply to salvation (conversion) is the last portion of the verse which Taken seemed to ignore:

Mat 3:11...he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment) are the two baptisms that matter - and they are both spiritual baptisms.

Water baptism is only given to a person after they have received the Early Rain and have made a confession of faith. The water baptism represents the spiritual baptism that will come later after their time of waiting is complete.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This concept also applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural baptism is with physical water and it comes first. The spiritual baptism is with the Holy Spirit and it comes second.

Joe

Yet today WATER IMMERSE baptism is not a requirement to be saved(enter Heaven)
If it was then it would be clearly mandated by Christ via His selected Apostle/Minister for today >>> Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

My stupidity baffles you <chuckle> <roflmao><headspins>

There... fixed your post for you, Dry-boy. Yes. Yes it does. Your stupidity baffles me... <smile>

Ahhh, you just mad. Cheers, though... <smile> Grace and peace to you...

 

[Dryhn]

There... fixed your post for you, Dry-boy. Yes. Yes it does.

Ahhh, you just mad. Cheers, though... <smile>

Yet you remain totally incapable of understanding :-
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
Or would you like to try again ?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yet today WATER IMMERSE baptism is not a requirement to be saved(enter Heaven)
If it was then it would be clearly mandated by Christ via His selected Apostle/Minister for today >>> Paul

Dear Dryhn,
I agree.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire is what Christ does within a person to convert/save them. It is at this point that a person will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe), ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Being "gathered to heaven" from the earth carries the same spiritual meaning as does "entering the Kingdom of Heaven". This event happens to a person immediately after they have been given the baptism of the Holy Spirit because this is when a new child of God is born.

This verse applies:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The change of location for the person represents the change that was just made to their spiritual state of being. In other words, the person's spiritual state of being changes from dwelling on the earth where mankind dwells with their god (Satan, the god of this world) to dwelling in heaven with Christ, the true God. It is not a literal change of locations.

Joe

 

[Dryhn]

Dear Dryhn,
I agree.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire is what Christ does within a person to convert/save them. It is at this point that a person will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe), ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Being "gathered to heaven" from the earth carries the same spiritual meaning as does "entering the Kingdom of Heaven". This event happens to a person immediately after they have been given the baptism of the Holy Spirit because this is when a new child of God is born.

This verse applies:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The change of location for the person represents the change that was just made to their spiritual state of being. In other words, the person's spiritual state of being changes from dwelling on the earth where mankind dwells with their god (Satan, the god of this world) to dwelling in heaven with Christ, the true God. It is not a literal change of locations.

Joe

Hi Joe & ty.
The Matt "gathering" of the elect is a process by angels
Our Paul "rise/caught up" is an angel-less event.

These are 2 separate events which causes a lot of 'discussion'

The Rapture - doctrine.org

Behold, I tell you a secret; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15.51-52). Introduction Great controversy…

doctrine.org

 

[Taken]

Dear Taken,
The Doctrine of Free Will is a lie from Satan

Disagree.

which he uses to deceive babes in the church that salvation requires a mixture of man's works with the works of Christ.

I do think some religious organizations…
Preach / Teach “a man’s Works is why a man is saved and his works “keep” him saved.”

I don’t believe or promote that.

However, when a babe accepts this lie, they have drunk mixed wine and have committed the sin that leads to death.

I believe men have FREEWILL and the salvation of man hangs on his Belief. (Not works)

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine (Old & New Covenant mixed together). 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

It is the sin of mixing works with faith which caused the apostasy of the church. The apostasy began near the end of the 1st century AD and has continue even up to today.

Concerning your comment on the children of the devil...

Since all mankind sins,

Yes.

all mankind are children of the Devil:

Don’t believe that.

Humans are natural born without truth, belief or understanding.

All angels were created with Truth, but not belief or understanding

Each have FREEWILL … to remedy by, through, with the Lord God, “what they lack”.

Satan’s Choice was…;
To Reject the Lord God,
To Lie About God, (in hopes To )
Entice and convince Others to Do the Same.
Others WHO do the Same…

* Some others Exercise their FREEWILL..
To Reject the Lord God…
Lie to Others about the Lord God…

* That is one who is called a son of Satan.

* Not every unbeliever does that.

* Some simply deny, do not believe, and that is “their” SIN Against the Lord God…
(Without joining up with Satan to Promote Rejection and Lies Against God).

Denying is not a “commission” of Sin.
Promoting Rejection and Promoting Lies About the Lord God…
Are “acts” / “Commissions” Against God.

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil (his children); for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

And since a child of the Devil is void of the Holy Spirit and cannot have faith in Christ, all mankind is condemned already and will perish in the Lake of Fire.

This is about void of faith…
Not commissions.

For this reason, it is necessary for Christ to convert mankind into a new creation before each person's death sentence is carried out.

Yes.
Conversion…BY Confession TO Christ before
Mortal Death, Prompts Christ to Save that Person.

Yes.
Belief in one’s heart before mortal death, (without conversion), prompts God to Save them After their Mortal Death.

Only the new creation (a child of God) can believe.

No. Because Belief IS required… before they receive Salvation.

Because this is the case, Christ will come to each and every person who has ever lived and freely (without their permission) give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. A person's "will" plays no part in it. Christ does it because of His love for us and because He is our God & Creator and has that right:

Disagree.
FREEWILL Belief is Required…(confessed or not)…Before Salvation is Given.
And once Given, Forever Remains By the Power of God IN Them.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand,

A man can not stay in Gods hand by mans power.

No man can be Removed from Gods hand by mans power.

Once a man IS IN Gods hand, Gods Power controls that man’s KEEPING.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Dear Kayla,
Yes, water baptism does not apply to salvation. I never said that it did. What does apply to salvation (conversion) is the last portion of the verse which Taken seemed to ignore:

Not at all.

Mat 3:11...he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment) are the two baptisms that matter - and

Spiritual Baptism Matters.

they are both spiritual baptisms.

Disagree.
Water Baptism is not Spiritual.
It is performed by men for men.

Water Baptism, Is to satisfy the “onlookers eyes of human men.”

The Spiritual Baptism of God, is “unseen”.
spiritual …Performed BY God For men.

Water baptism is only given to a person after they have received the Early Rain and have made a confession of faith. The water baptism represents the spiritual baptism that will come later after their time of waiting is complete.

The “Water”… is what humans can SEE.
* First The “cleansing” of the Earth > Flood
* Water Baptism, “cleansing” .

The Flood… generationally failed to KEEP the Earth and it”s inhabitants “clean.”
The Water Baptism… does not KEEP men “righteous”…

Jesus’ Blood (unseen), cleanses the Saved.
The Earth shall be Cleansed By Fire.

Fire on the Earth…Kills the stubble…
( men, chaff, weeds etc.)
And Restores the SOIL with Good nutrients.
(soul, minerals, a natural man requires to exist.)

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Sure….
And consider WHO comes WITH Him…
* His already Faithful Bride / Church … already Redeemed, with Him ( no longer Waiting to See Him)
* His Faithful holy Angels, already With Him.

This concept also applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural baptism is with physical water and it comes first.

Yes. Seen.

The spiritual baptism is with the Holy Spirit and it comes second.

Yes. Unseen.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hi Joe & ty.
The Matt "gathering" of the elect is a process by angels
Our Paul "rise/caught up" is an angel-less event.

These are 2 separate events which causes a lot of 'discussion'

The Rapture - doctrine.org

Behold, I tell you a secret; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15.51-52). Introduction Great controversy…

doctrine.org

Dear Dryhn,
I agree that the "gathering" event and the "caught up" event are two separate events. However, the caught up event is the bodily resurrection from the grave. I guess a person could call the bodily resurrection from the grave a "rapture" but it is better to use the term that scripture assigns to this event.

Here is more on the bodily resurrection from the grave and what happens afterwards:

The bodily resurrection from the grave is still a future event. It will only occur at the end of this present age. After it does, all mankind will be separated into two groups. The sheep (children of God) will begin their reign with Christ and the goats (children of the Devil) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual symbol for judgment. It is not literal fire. Since all judgment has been given to Christ, He will administer their judgment in accordance with the law:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The verses below describe how Christ administers the judgment of the goats:

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Prov 28:5 Evil men (all mankind which includes unconverted babes in the church) understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ is the Sun) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just (sheep) and on the unjust (goats).

Look closely at the verse below:

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Why does the verse above include judgment along side righteousness and why does it say that they will both will fill the earth with the goodness of the Lord?

It's because judgment is a necessary component of salvation.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

The verse below describes mankind's salvation and it not getting to go to a literal place called heaven as so many believe. Salvation is conversion.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Mankind is the clay:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Without judgment, mankind cannot become a new creation; a child of God. For this reason, Christ was eager to begin judgment upon mankind:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! Now consider this verse:

When Christ created mankind, He purposely did so in a spiritually marred way. This flaw in mankind's spiritual makeup caused mankind to become carnal & sinful creatures; the children of the devil. Because Christ desires his vessel to be perfect, He destroys the original vessel and makes the clay into a new spiritually perfect vessel. He makes this change within mankind through a spiritual process that is called "conversion" (baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire). Conversion creates the new vessel and destroys the old vessel. Because the old vessel is flawed and cannot have faith in Christ, it is "condemned already". The old vessel's fate was decided long ago and it ends in destruction in the Lake of Fire. But before each child of the devil perishes, Christ will make them into a new vessel so that the person's life does not end. It is in this way, the penalty of the law is satisfied (death of the child of the devil).

After Christ converts the balance of mankind, He will have successfully completed the mission His Father gave Him.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

It is the successful completion of Christ's mission to save the world that gives glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

After the last person under judgment has been converted, the scripture below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

A man can not stay in Gods hand by mans power.

No man can be Removed from Gods hand by mans power.

Once a man IS IN Gods hand, Gods Power controls that man’s KEEPING.

Glory to God,
Taken

Dear Taken,
I will respond only to your false belief in mankind's free will ability.

You said:
A man can not stay in Gods hand by man's power.

No man can be removed from God's hand by man's power.

Once a man IS IN Gods hand, Gods Power controls that man’s KEEPING.

So where is your free will ability in your comments above? It is not there.

The same is true of the children of the devil. After a person sins, they become a child of the devil who is governed by Satan. For babes in Christ after they have fallen away, Satan's control over them will become even greater (makes the person "worse than the first", Mat 12:43-45).

So how does Satan gain more control over a babe in Christ? He does it by indwelling the person with his spirit; the spirit of anti-Christ.

The verses below apply:

Rev 13:12 And he (2nd beast/the spirit of anti-Christ) exerciseth all the power of the first beast (a man of sin/apostate believer) before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein (babes dwell on the earth/unbelievers dwell in the sea) to worship the first beast (they worship themselves because they sit in God's temple claiming to be God), whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:15 And he (the spirit of anti-Christ) had power to give life unto the image of the beast (an apostate babe/deadly head wound healed), that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed (by making faithful babes become unfaithful). 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads (a spiritual mark that represents Satan's control over the person): 17 And that no man might buy or sell (accept or teach Satan's false truth), save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The spirit of anti-Christ, through the lie of free will, is what kills (makes unfaithful) all new babes as they enter the church. This is how Satan kills all the elect babes while they wait for their salvation (Mat 24:9 & Rev 11:7). This is the apostasy of the church that Paul warned would be coming shortly after his death (Acts 20:29-31).

The only way a person can be removed from Satan's hand is by the spiritual work of Christ that He does under the New Covenant - and Christ is the one who decides when that work will be done. The person has no say in the matter because they do not have a free will ability to decide differently.

This verse applies to how Christ removes a person from Satan's hand:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man (caused by the gift of the Holy Spirit), and the answer of the tongue (confession of faith), is from the LORD.

There is no place for a belief in "free will" either in Satan's kingdom or in Christ's kingdom.

Joe