Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Episkopos]

He won't directly address anything that proves him wrong on any point. I'm getting so tired of his jumbled up theology.

I try to avoid the vain babblings that are rampant here. I actually answer a lot more than I maybe should.

I make a true statement...and people ignore that for the most part because they don't understand spiritual things. But any kind of flesh misunderstanding becomes a topic for people's interest. So then always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

And where there is a little spark of interest in the truth..it is quickly stolen away.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Act 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at (overlooked); but now commandeth ALL men EVERY WHERE to REPENT

I think Epi and his followers are clinging to Romans 2:14-16 to validate their rejection of Jesus' sacrifice for salvation:

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,b as proclaimed by my gospel.

I've encountered people who think this is their get out of jail free card. They don't realize that this doesn't apply to them since they have the law, even having knowledge of this passage to ask about it. And somehow they're the lost tribesman in the jungles of the Amazon who's never heard of the law or the gospel.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I make a true statement...and people ignore that for the most part because they don't understand spiritual things.

No, it's because so much of what you say contradicts other scripture. And you refuse to answer the contradictions.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I have begun to experience the love I lacked and prayed for for so long. Your arguments are no match for this love, this experience OF that love. So you should just consider me lost and not waste your breath on me.

Experience over knowledge will get you in trouble every time. But many people defer to experiences over the plain words of scripture to suit their own personal desires.

"...having itching ears..." 2 Timothy 4:3

 

[shepherdsword]

Is anyone else besides me convicted because of their attitude in this thread? My old mentor once told me. "you can pretty much use the word "attitude" in place of "spirit" and with rare exceptions, not lose any meaning because they are interchangeable" With that being said, what can we also call a foul "attitude"

 

[Lizbeth]

I think Epi and his followers are clinging to Romans 2:14-16 to validate their rejection of Jesus' sacrifice for salvation:

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,b as proclaimed by my gospel.

I've encountered people who think this is their get out of jail free card. They don't realize that this doesn't apply to them since they have the law, even having knowledge of this passage to ask about it. And somehow they're the lost tribesman in the jungles of the Amazon who's never heard of the law or the gospel.

Yes, I think the purpose of that passage was to correct and reprove any wrong attitude of superiority over the Gentiles, as well as any lack in keeping the Law and living righteously (some Gentiles were more righteously than some of the Jews). That some Gentiles are a law unto themselves can't be implying that any Gentiles are saved by that......since even Jews who had the Law and kept it still needed Jesus and the gospel to be saved.

 

[ProDeo]

The mystery of Christ is that we can enter into Him and be where He is AND remain in our bodies. That is walking in the Spirit. That is the victory over sin and this world. To abide IN Him....as I've been saying for many years now.

Our power over sin is from heaven. For Christ to dwell in us and walk in us. "Where I am you will also be". Being translated into the kingdom realm so that Jesus will say....I know you!

Agreed, it's why Jesus promised the Comforter, our Guide to lead us through life with all its challenges and temptations. It's because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Author of our faith we don't want to sin any longer and gives us the motive and power to overcome sin. It is not even of ourselves!!

And BTW, I don't see a relationship with Efeze 2:4-7, I think that goes deeper.

Not exactly OSAS. We can fall from that place through sin....and be restored once again through repentance. So we go in and out of the gate (Christ) and find pasture both IN Jerusalem (which is above) and outside it.

I am not surprised you are saying this, you may strongly feel that way (the in and out cycle), the question is if feelings are in harmony with the Biblical truth. I understand that differently, a born again can lose his salvation and then it is impossible to be re-born again, so no endless in and out cycle. I think Hebrews is clear about that.

Hebr 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hebr 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebr 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

and

Hebr 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebr 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Keywords : fallen away or go on sinning deliberately

Ouch....

You are not like that, I know you long enough.

This is both fully biblical AND my own testimony.

Filipp 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[Lizbeth]

I try to avoid the vain babblings that are rampant here. I actually answer a lot more than I maybe should.

I make a true statement...and people ignore that for the most part because they don't understand spiritual things. But any kind of flesh misunderstanding becomes a topic for people's interest. So then always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

And where there is a little spark of interest in the truth..it is quickly stolen away.

According to your usual cop-out. I guess I will have to do your homework for you, and I hope your followers are paying attention as well:

See how meekness is not apart from the Lord…….it is not talking about "meek" pagan unbelievers, but those who know the Lord. First up is your favourite Ps 37 verse that you like to quote as proof that unbelievers who are meek will inherit the earth…we can easily see by other verses in that same Psalm that it is not talking about unbelievers but those who wait on the Lord and keep His way….no one can wait on the Lord and keep His way if they don’t believe in Him:


Psa 37:9-11

For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace…..

……Psa 37:34

Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.



And now a few more verses just enough to give you the idea (there are more) that show the meek who God is talking about in scripture are believers, not unbelievers:

Psa 22:26

The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.


Psa 25:9

The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.


Psa 76:8-11

Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still,

When God arose to judgment, to SAVE all the meek of the earth. Selah.

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.

Vow, and pay unto the LORD your God: let all that be round about him bring presents unto him that ought to be feared.



Psa 147:6-11

The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground.

Sing unto the LORD with thanksgiving; sing praise upon the harp unto our God:

Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.

He giveth to the beast his food, and to the young ravens which cry.

He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man.

The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Experience over knowledge will get you in trouble every time. But many people defer to experiences over the plain words of scripture to suit their own personal desires.

"...having itching ears..." 2 Timothy 4:3

This is truly odd, to say that the experience of His love is having itching ears and will get me into trouble. It is through this love that knowledge and facts ABOUT turn to understanding. I don’t know why you do this to yourself.

 

[shepherdsword]

Experience over knowledge will get you in trouble every time. But many people defer to experiences over the plain words of scripture to suit their own personal desires.

"...having itching ears..." 2 Timothy 4:3

To sense and experience God's presence is a wonderful thing. It is a foreshadowing of what is to come:

Ps 16:11
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

1 Co 2:9-10
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Have you ever experienced this?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

To sense and experience God's presence is a wonderful thing. It is a foreshadowing of what is to come:

Ps 16:11
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

1 Co 2:9-10
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Have you ever experienced this?

Yes, I experience this.
This the only way I've been able to endure.

The problem is many people are assigning spiritual experiences to God that aren't really from God. They get these great experiences and start questioning scripture. Big mistake.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

This is truly odd, to say that the experience of His love is having itching ears and will get me into trouble. It is through this love that knowledge and facts ABOUT turn to understanding. I don’t know why you do this to yourself.

You are not experiencing God's love if what you are experiencing causes you to ignore or rewrite scripture.

If an experience with God does not preserve the whole counsel of God's word, you are not hearing from God, but are instead hearing a deceiving spirit trying to lead you away from God's word and to destruction.

But a deceiving spirit can't lead a person away to where they don't want to go. Their strength to sway comes from the fundamental desires within a person. If one of those desires is to resist the humility and honesty of the need for Jesus' sacrifice for forgiveness and reconciliation with God then that is where a lying spirit will deceive and lead astray.

It is quite true that a man only hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. That's why we need to keep the Bible as the benchmark of revelation, not experiences.

 

[ThomasDGW]

Personally, I've never heard a pastor use the term "sinless perfection." But whenever I have taught that Jesus said He takes away our sin, I get WARNINGS that I'm teaching "sinless perfection." Which denominations teach against sinless perfection? I know one pastor who does, but are there more? I have some of that pastors books for research on what not to teach, and I swear when I open them, demons seem to be flying off the pages. There are many forum members who also teach against "sinless perfection." Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Also, in Revelation 22:11 look to see which category you are in, because there is a popular teaching about the body that says we will not stop sinning until after we die and receive our new bodies." Not according to this: "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Therefore, when you die, nothing changes. That doctrine about freedom from sin only when we receive new bodies is a doctrine of demons, because demons want you to keep sinning so you can receive the same punishment as they will be getting. They must like the company.

Both Paul and Peter taught we are dead to sin. Romans 6:5-7, 22; 1 Peter 2:24. John taught we cannot sin, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. John has also been misquoted with 1 John 1:8 which contradicts 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9 that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Those who want to justify their sin twist these scriptures backwards and believe 1 John 1:8 over 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9. Look at 1 John 2:4 if you want to know what lie 1 John 1:8 is really saying, 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1 is written with a Semitic writing style. Verse 5 through 10 is a contrast between Light vs. Darkness. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved darkness. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a born again Christian ONCE, not over and over as you are a slave to sin. It is the same as Peter's Acts 2:38 "REPENT, ... and you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I teach that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

What Jesus does as the Author of our faith is He takes away the worst type of sin (sins unto death) out of our sin nature, leaving it now clean of evil desires, John 15:3. And He does this instantaneously when He baptizes us with fire according to John the Baptist. This sinless state is called righteousness and is what 1 John 3 is all about.

What Jesus does as the Finisher of our faith takes a long time, not instantaneously. At the end of this process is when His work is complete, Phil. 1:6, and we are then perfect, the other name for holy. The process has to do with maturing each fruit of the Spirit and is found in 2 Peter 1:5-11. "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To me "never stumble" means perfection, but it is a long time coming from when we were first made sinless of sins unto death. This is why I never put sinless and perfection together as "sinless perfection." On the narrow path toward salvation, sinlessness is at the beginning and perfection is at the end. Then and only then is there "sinless perfection" when the two are complete. Committing sins due to immature fruit are not sins unto death, but sins not unto death; however, maturing fruit is necessary for salvation. Otherwise, those branches that do not bear fruit are cast into the fire. John 15:1-4, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

See also this common passage with the first two verses before it added for context and clarity:

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

That doctrine that you summarize formed a big turning in my understanding. I grew up in independent Bible churches and Baptist churches, both of which teach the doctrine that salvation by Christ is primarily the payment for our sin debt, and that we accept that payment by faith, but that we become forgiven sinners that should sin less and less as we grow on Christ (progressive sanctification). Further, this Baptist doctrine teaches that we will continue to sin to some extent, until we leave this earthly life and become instantly free of sin.

There are a whole set of "explanations" developed to interpret those verses that you refer to, such as positional truth categorizing that says that those verses describe how God sees you in your position as a child of God, through the "filter" of Chrisi's blood, not how you actually are.

On the other hand, there are other doctrinal systems that take those verses as present reality. The Wesleyan and many Pentecostal groups invented a second work of grace doctrine that says that after receiving the pardon for our sins, we are expected to reach a stage in which we achieve sinless perfection through a complete dedication to the Holy Spirit. Details of how this is done vary in the different groups, along with how much time this takes and at what point of failing to become sanctified or to maintain sanctification, a pardoned sinner might lose his salvation.

These two doctrinal lines are in competition so if one group hears you say something, even just a Bible quote, which echoes a phrase from the opposing doctrine, you will usually get a challenging accusation of supporting and teaching THAT doctrine.

About 45 years ago, I took a challenge seriously to accept the Bible for what it says, without the manufactured doctrines. At first, it seemed impossible. But God had mercy on my ignorance and opened my eyes to see that the Bible speaks in 2 realms, the spirit and the flesh. That resolves the confusion, because it is our inner person that is born again, not our body of flesh. Both groups are partly right and both are very wrong.

 

[shepherdsword]

About 45 years ago, I took a challenge seriously to accept the Bible for what it says, without the manufactured doctrines. At first, it seemed impossible. But God had mercy on my ignorance and opened my eyes to see that the Bible speaks in 2 realms, the spirit and the flesh. That resolves the confusion, because it is our inner person that is born again, not our body of flesh. Both groups are partly right and both are very wrong.

The bible contains both the tree of Knowledge and the tree of Life..( the flesh and the spirit)

 

[ProDeo]

About 45 years ago, I took a challenge seriously to accept the Bible for what it says, without the manufactured doctrines. At first, it seemed impossible. But God had mercy on my ignorance and opened my eyes to see that the Bible speaks in 2 realms, the spirit and the flesh. That resolves the confusion, because it is our inner person that is born again, not our body of flesh. Both groups are partly right and both are very wrong.

Welcome to the forum Thomas.

About the blue, why stop here and tell us how it should be.

 

[Episkopos]

You are not experiencing God's love if what you are experiencing causes you to ignore or rewrite scripture.

Like Luther did.

If an experience with God does not preserve the whole counsel of God's word, you are not hearing from God, but are instead hearing a deceiving spirit trying to lead you away from God's word and to destruction.

This is what happens in evangelical circles. The enemy whispers false doctrines that serve the flesh into the novice believer, then he thinks anything else must be false.

But a deceiving spirit can't lead a person away to where they don't want to go.

They do this willingly of course. If it SOUNDS good, then it must BE good.

Their strength to sway comes from the fundamental desires within a person.

Exactly. Self-interest. Fill the pews and give them them what they want.

If one of those desires is to resist the humility and honesty of the need for Jesus' sacrifice for forgiveness and reconciliation with God then that is where a lying spirit will deceive and lead astray.

This is false. We are not to claim Jesus' sacrifice for ourselves. That is a selfish motivation. Instead we are to desire to suffer with Christ...be crucified with Him. That's what brings the intimacy.

It is quite true that a man only hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. That's why we need to keep the Bible as the benchmark of revelation, not experiences.

We need the bible to communicate with others as well as inform the revelation. But it is the Spirit that gives life, not the letter.

 

[Episkopos]

 

[Episkopos]

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Like Luther did.

Tell us, he ignored and rewrote what scripture?

 

[Episkopos]

And he ignored and rewrote what scripture, again?

By grace alone by faith alone. He added the "alone" because itching ears need more certainty.