Why water into wine?

[Sword]

Dear Sword,

I REPEAT: Instead of accepting my word, and if you have 2 minutes of your life to spare, search "healing mass" and "catholic healing priest".

I would like to add to that: Search for Charismatic Catholic Churches

I apologize (something rare to see on this forum) I should not have used the word accused. I should have said, You have made the assertion that there is no proof of Catholic Church laying hands on the sick and seeing them healed and that you have never heard of the Catholic Church laying hands on the sick and seeing them healed. Your assertion, according to my research, falls flat.

I, Mary, have never seen a million dollars in cash but I'm sure it exist. Just because YOU haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Love, Mary

Well I am pleased it falls flat but I did ask many many times and bread struggled to answer or show me the detail i was asking for. I would have preferred you gave me the links you found. Just in case I find something different and then more confusion. If I was going to have a guess at what a carrismatic catholic church was or where I would say in the poorest parts far away from Rome and the traditional church.

Yes as I thought it would be the amazon was the first I found. So what has that got to do with that catholic church nothing I am afriad. The catholic church is in rome. It doesant happen in Rome so how was I wrong? My question was always do the catholic church The tradictional one. Do they lay hands on the sick on the treet and every where they go yes or no. The answer is no. I think if you asked the catholics inhere have they ever approcoaced someone on the street to lay hands on the answer would ne no. If bread of life sees fit to ridicule me in pulic because of my spelling defictances. what chance is there that he cares for the needy on the street? I am not wron the catholic church does not lay hands on the sick on the street. So if any of you have any proof of it happening on the streets like Jesus done please provide the links . Thank you.

I, Mary, have never seen a million dollars in cash but I'm sure it exist. Just because YOU haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I never seen a million either, but I never seen in my life time or heard off. nor has anyone in here been able to provide proof of the catholic church praying on the streets for people. This what jesus done and this is what we are to do. Bread of life was in here telling everyone his church is the only church. so i asked a simple question and as yet no one can tell me if the do or not. My exoperiance tells me they dont.

 

[Mungo]

So where is God glory in testimonys and the people who actully get healed are delighted to tell. so how would want to hide it? and why?

That is a different issue. People who are healed may testify in many different ways - to friends and family or to their prayer groups for example.

But if you want a video search for Catholic Miracle Rally in youtube. Here is an example

 

[Mungo]

Well I am pleased it falls flat but I did ask many many times and bread struggled to answer or show me the detail i was asking for. I would have preferred you gave me the links you found. Just in case I find something different and then more confusion. If I was going to have a guess at what a carrismatic catholic church was or where I would say in the poorest parts far away from Rome and the traditional church.

Yes as I thought it would be the amazon was the first I found. So what has that got to do with that catholic church nothing I am afriad. The catholic church is in rome. It doesant happen in Rome so how was I wrong? My question was always do the catholic church The tradictional one. Do they lay hands on the sick on the treet and every where they go yes or no. The answer is no. I think if you asked the catholics inhere have they ever approcoaced someone on the street to lay hands on the answer would ne no. If bread of life sees fit to ridicule me in pulic because of my spelling defictances. what chance is there that he cares for the needy on the street? I am not wron the catholic church does not lay hands on the sick on the street. So if any of you have any proof of it happening on the streets like Jesus done please provide the links . Thank you.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a world wide movement within the Catholic Church, not some separate church.

 

[perrero]

Hi perrero,

I see you agree with the Catholic Church that Calvin was a heretic. Since the Catholic Church does not agree with Calvin and you, does that make you a heretic also?

I suspect the Catholic Church and many other churches would say that YOUR beliefs do "not align with the word of God" and call you a heretic. Who is right? You or them?

How is it possible that the Catholic Church could be right about Calvin but not right about you and your beliefs? Are they only right if you agree with them? Does that not make you your own Pope of your own church?

I asked you MANY other legitimate questions also but you refuse, or can't logically, answer them. Is that why you cherry pick my questions??

Curious Mary!

It is amazing that you think that the C church is the benchmark of all truth, but then maybe you know no better. However, it is the Word of God, Jesus Himself, who is the Truth. Therefore if you are to test anything you must do so based on His Word. You however, have been basing your truth and evidence on fiction, innuendo, reasoning everything but the Word of God. Oh, excuse me, you did quote, "Suffer the little children to come unto me" as proof of infant baptism", a verse totally taken out of context. In the 3 references of this verse you conveniently omitted to quote the remainder of the verse which states; "for of such is the kingdom of God." Now where in the totality of these 3 verses (Mat. 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16) do you see any reference to "Infant Baptism"? Once again you quote a verse out of context and apply your own reasoning and guesswork to it and come up with something totally false. And just because BoL agrees, well heaven forbid that anyone should question his interpretation which is just as wrong because he uses the same methods as you.
The Holy Spirit carefully chose the Greek word "Baptizo" for baptism which means to "put under", "submerge", "immerge". This was the example of Jesus ans his disciples ans is done as an outward representation of what has transpired internally (repentance, conversion regeneration). This is useless to do for an infant as it does not understand these concepts and therefore has not gone through those steps.

As far as I know, Mary, I've answered all your questions, to the point that you replied to me "Thank you". If anything you have not replied to my questions which seems Ok for you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you trying to read my mind?
I certainly do not believe that God chooses the fate of each individual. This would void free will.

But according to you.

Which is an irrational statement. If God the fate of all before they are created, then when He creates them there fate is already determined.

GOD is outside of time is a puerile thought that does not apply to the JHWH of the Bible. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (time), He is the same yesterday, today and forever (time), their was not one "outside of time" day of creation, there were 6 days consecutive days of creation each separate involving God's separate handywork (time), God says that He makes plans or has plans for us which require time to formulate. There was a time when God was all alone, then a time when He brought in creation and there will be a time when He renew all things. God lives an eternal endless succession of time which permits Him to be elated at what He does (and HE saw that it was good GEN. 1:4, 10, 12, 18,21,25, and very good 31) 6 distinctive days of creation (time) and grieved at what He did Gen. 6:6 You can't be elated and grieved at the same time. Even a painting takes time to finish.
Your God has the attributes of the Greek God Zeus not YHWH, just like Calvin.

What an ignorant statement.
I've been called a LOT of things by anti-Catholics - but "Calvinist" is a new one. My Calvinist siblings would disagree with you . . .

In 2 Pet. 3:8, we read that God is NOT bound by time:

2 Pet. 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

5 Point Calvinism teaches that God creates some for Heaven - and the majority simply for the purpose of tossing them into Hell.
This is what is known as "Double Predestination" which I vehemently reject - and so does the Catholic Church. I can only deduce that your accusing me of being a Calvinist is based in total ignorance.

Finally - the fact that God sees everything as a "finished painting" is NOT a Calvinist view. It simply acknowledges His omniscience.
Calvinists believe that He chooses your fate for you.

Not sure where YOU stand - but it doesn't sound Christian . . .

 

[Sword]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a world wide movement within the Catholic Church, not some separate church.

Thanks for that and I am really pleased to hear it. please pass it on to brerad of life as he never new it. Thank you. Cant believe it took 225 posts to tell me this. No wonder I couldnt see if the cathlolics dont know it exists

 

[Marymog]

Well I am pleased it falls flat but I did ask many many times and bread struggled to answer or show me the detail i was asking for. I would have preferred you gave me the links you found. Just in case I find something different and then more confusion. If I was going to have a guess at what a carrismatic catholic church was or where I would say in the poorest parts far away from Rome and the traditional church.

Yes as I thought it would be the amazon was the first I found. So what has that got to do with that catholic church nothing I am afriad. The catholic church is in rome. It doesant happen in Rome so how was I wrong? My question was always do the catholic church The tradictional one. Do they lay hands on the sick on the treet and every where they go yes or no. The answer is no. I think if you asked the catholics inhere have they ever approcoaced someone on the street to lay hands on the answer would ne no. If bread of life sees fit to ridicule me in pulic because of my spelling defictances. what chance is there that he cares for the needy on the street? I am not wron the catholic church does not lay hands on the sick on the street. So if any of you have any proof of it happening on the streets like Jesus done please provide the links . Thank you.

I never seen a million either, but I never seen in my life time or heard off. nor has anyone in here been able to provide proof of the catholic church praying on the streets for people. This what jesus done and this is what we are to do. Bread of life was in here telling everyone his church is the only church. so i asked a simple question and as yet no one can tell me if the do or not. My exoperiance tells me they dont.

Yes, you are wrong about laying of hands and it was very easy for me to prove you wrong. Here, I will help you out: Google.com or bing.com

Like I said. I am not taking sides HOWEVER you assertion is verifiably FALSE

So if your not praying on the streets for people your not a real Christian? What's your point?

Your welcome.

Love, Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

My exoperiance tells me they dont.

yet if you were destitute and seeking help, today, and you walked down the street looking for help at various churches, the Catholic church is almost surely the only one open right now, that would do their best to help you on your way, without caring if you ID as Catholic or Wiccan.

The point being that it seems that you take this "laying on of hands" way literally, and do not acknowledge that hands are a symbol of action, work done, being willing and able--and open your church doors even--to actually help someone in need, with your "hands," as it were.

Also there are warnings about this "putting Jesus in the streets," although i grant that there are also valid passages that seem to say the opposite, too--meaning that there is a certain context for each, which i guess is a diff thread, but it isn't too hard to figure out imo. Are you proselytizing to strangers about the shed blood of Jesus while stepping over someone in need, perhaps.

 

[Sword]

Yes, you are wrong about laying of hands and it was very easy for me to prove you wrong. Here, I will help you out: Google.com or bing.com

Like I said. I am not taking sides HOWEVER you assertion is verifiably FALSE

So if your not praying on the streets for people your not a real Christian? What's your point?

Your welcome.

Love, Mary

Well I have said it already but if you dont remeber i will say it again. Bread of Life was telling us the catholic church is the only church in the world and the rest are all splinters of it. and he was telling how they are number one. And I am thinking well I never heard of them laying hands on the people, so I asked the question do they. I never said they dont up to a point. point is if they aint doing what they are called to how could the be the only church. Plainly not true and just a little silly to talk like that. What I dont think is helping anything is the likes of you saying I concider people to be less of a Christian if they dont. Thats not true. If they dont its because they have not been taught. and who taugh most people world wide the catholic church. Now why would you jump to that question, not very nice is it. My point in here and always will be we should all be laying hands on the sick continually as that is what we are called to do. Just like Christ.

PS you never actully proved me wrong why you thinking you did. You need to read all the posts. Mungo showed me that some catholic but the Pope doesnt recommend it does he?

 

[perrero]

What an ignorant statement.
I've been called a LOT of things by anti-Catholics - but "Calvinist" is a new one. My Calvinist siblings would disagree with you . . .

In 2 Pet. 3:8, we read that God is NOT bound by time:

2 Pet. 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

5 Point Calvinism teaches that God creates some for Heaven - and the majority simply for the purpose of tossing them into Hell.
This is what is known as "Double Predestination" which I vehemently reject - and so does the Catholic Church. I can only deduce that your accusing me of being a Calvinist is based in total ignorance.

Finally - the fact that God sees everything as a "finished painting" is NOT a Calvinist view. It simply acknowledges His omniscience.
Calvinists believe that He chooses your fate for you.

Not sure where YOU stand - but it doesn't sound Christian . . .

Ignorant, yes, only because you can't see beyond your nose.
Vehemently reject or not, you still believe that prior to anything being created God knew who He was going to create some who would end up in heaven and some who were going down to hell and therefore it was all pre-determined before anything came into being. You throw in free-will only to provide God an exit door on cruelty of such a horrible scheme. At least Calvinist have the guts to say; "Well God is supreme, He can do what He wants, who are we to question His methods?" The fact is that your view is no different than Calvinism. Call it light-Calvinism because you throw in free-will to alleviate the ugliness of such an evil plan.

The bible does NOT say that everything was created in 1 day. It took 6 days (or 6 billion years doesn't matter to God), each day separated by an evening and a morning and each time God looked at what He did and said it was good. I noticed you never even commented on that because you have no answer for it. God is "Omniscient" without the need of your "Painting" and "Out of time" illustrations. Time certainly has no effect on Him as He is eternal but nevertheless He exists in an endless succession of time.

I never said God was bound by time. Your verse only means that time has no effect on God. Unlike us who age over time. He does not age.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ignorant, yes, only because you can't see beyond your nose.
Vehemently reject or not, you still believe that prior to anything being created God knew who He was going to create some who would end up in heaven and some who were going down to hell and therefore it was all pre-determined before anything came into being. You throw in free-will only to provide God an exit door on cruelty of such a horrible scheme. At least Calvinist have the guts to say; "Well God is supreme, He can do what He wants, who are we to question His methods?" The fact is that your view is no different than Calvinism. Call it light-Calvinism because you throw in free-will to alleviate the ugliness of such an evil plan.

The bible does NOT say that everything was created in 1 day. It took 6 days (or 6 billion years doesn't matter to God), each day separated by an evening and a morning and each time God looked at what He did and said it was good. I noticed you never even commented on that because you have no answer for it. God is "Omniscient" without the need of your "Painting" and "Out of time" illustrations. Time certainly has no effect on Him as He is eternal but nevertheless He exists in an endless succession of time.

I never said God was bound by time. Your verse only means that time has no effect on God. Unlike us who age over time. He does not age.

And your notion that God didn't have a clue as to what the future held for us is heresy.

This is precisely why you cannot understand why we celebrate the ETERNAL sacrifice of Christ at each and every mass.
Rev. 13:8 states in no uncertain terms that He was slain BEFORE the foundations of the world.

Did God create us?? YES.
Did He know that we would sin?? YES.
Did He choose sin for us?? NO.

Study your Bible.

 

[Marymog]

It is amazing that you think that the C church is the benchmark of all truth, but then maybe you know no better. However, it is the Word of God, Jesus Himself, who is the Truth. Therefore if you are to test anything you must do so based on His Word. You however, have been basing your truth and evidence on fiction, innuendo, reasoning everything but the Word of God. Oh, excuse me, you did quote, "Suffer the little children to come unto me" as proof of infant baptism", a verse totally taken out of context. In the 3 references of this verse you conveniently omitted to quote the remainder of the verse which states; "for of such is the kingdom of God." Now where in the totality of these 3 verses (Mat. 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16) do you see any reference to "Infant Baptism"? Once again you quote a verse out of context and apply your own reasoning and guesswork to it and come up with something totally false. And just because BoL agrees, well heaven forbid that anyone should question his interpretation which is just as wrong because he uses the same methods as you.
The Holy Spirit carefully chose the Greek word "Baptizo" for baptism which means to "put under", "submerge", "immerge". This was the example of Jesus ans his disciples ans is done as an outward representation of what has transpired internally (repentance, conversion regeneration). This is useless to do for an infant as it does not understand these concepts and therefore has not gone through those steps.

As far as I know, Mary, I've answered all your questions, to the point that you replied to me "Thank you". If anything you have not replied to my questions which seems Ok for you.

Dear Sir,

I think I get it. You haven't really directly answered my question but I THINK I get the gist of what you are saying.

The Catholic Church or Mary or the Lutheran Church etc. are only right IF YOU AGREE WITH THEM.

Only perrero can put Gods word to the test and come up with the right interpretation. No other man or Church can.

Only perrrero can put scripture in context. No other man or Church can.

You agree with the Catholic Church when YOU say they are right. The Church is inspired and right SOMETIMES but not ALL THE TIME. Only perrero is inspired and right ALL THE TIME.

Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink

Your have a NARROW interpretation of Baptize. The above link should help you. YOUR WELCOME.

The earliest historical recordings of how Christians baptized did NOT include submersion only. Read the Didache which was written by the people who walked and talked with the Apostles.

I know...I know....The people who walked and talked with the Apostles were wrong and you, perrero, are right.

I believe I have answered all your questions. If I havn't, please ask again.

I asked 5 qestions in my last post and I don't see a direct answer to ANY of them. You write a lot of words but none of those words answer my questions. weird

Mary

 

[Sword]

I baptised my dishes tonight fully submersed in water. Thats all it means its not even a religious word.

 

[Marymog]

I baptised my dishes tonight fully submersed in water. Thats all it means its not even a religious word.

I agree. It's not a religious word. Neither is the name Jesus. It was a very common name in the 1st century. But if you say the name JESUS today, it's taken as religious only.

 

[Marymog]

Well I have said it already but if you dont remeber i will say it again. Bread of Life was telling us the catholic church is the only church in the world and the rest are all splinters of it. and he was telling how they are number one. And I am thinking well I never heard of them laying hands on the people, so I asked the question do they. I never said they dont up to a point. point is if they aint doing what they are called to how could the be the only church. Plainly not true and just a little silly to talk like that. What I dont think is helping anything is the likes of you saying I concider people to be less of a Christian if they dont. Thats not true. If they dont its because they have not been taught. and who taugh most people world wide the catholic church. Now why would you jump to that question, not very nice is it. My point in here and always will be we should all be laying hands on the sick continually as that is what we are called to do. Just like Christ.

PS you never actully proved me wrong why you thinking you did. You need to read all the posts. Mungo showed me that some catholic but the Pope doesnt recommend it does he?

Dear Sword,

I did prove you wrong. I just didn't share my proof with you. Just because I didn't share the proof with you does not mean that you are right. I instead encouraged you to research the subject yourself instead of relying on someone else's research. We can clearly see where not doing your own research has gotten you. You are flat out WRONG about your assertion. The evidence of you being wrong is out there. The Truth is out there. You do care to know the truth. Don't you??

Where in scripture does it say you HAVE to lay hands on people and heal them to be a TRUE Christian Church. I have searched scripture and can't find that teaching. I know there are MULTIPLE examples of laying on of hands but which verse says 'To be a true Christian Church you MUST do this?'

Where did i say YOU consider them to be less of a Christian if they don't lay hands on? I never said that.

Your point is they should do it; laying on of hands. Since the Catholic Church does it then this discussion is over.

I don't understand the last question in your post.

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

I agree. It's not a religious word. Neither is the name Jesus. It was a very common name in the 1st century. But if you say the name JESUS today, it's taken as religious only.

ya, and you should be not drawing a breath until you have said "precious blood" at least once in that context, either. Sheesh.

 

[Sword]

Where in scripture does it say you HAVE to lay hands on people and heal them to be a TRUE Christian Church.

I clearly told you I never said any such thing when you suggested I might be saying that. Now you come back and flat out accuse me of saying that?

 

[Marymog]

I clearly told you I never said any such thing when you suggested I might be saying that. Now you come back and flat out accuse me of saying that?

Dear Sword,

When someone starts a sentence off with the word WHERE that is generally taken as a QUESTION, not an ACCUSATION. I realize I did not end that sentence with a question mark, however, if one knows common English they know WHERE is a question, not a statement. So your accusation that I accused you of "saying that" is a false accusation of an accusation that never occurred

QUOTE: "...we should all be laying hands on the sick continually as that is what we are called to do. Just like Christ."

So I ask you Sword: If laying on of hands "is what we are called to do", just like Christ, then shouldn't we all do what we are called to do to be Christ like? Isn't that the whole point of becoming a Christian? Do what we are called to do and be just like Christ to obtain eternal salvation?

If we DON'T DO what we are called to do and if we DON'T try to be like Christ then you wouldn't be a TRUE CHRISTIAN. Would you? You would be a person who cherry picks the teaching of Christ to fit your own PERSONAL beliefs. Only TRUE CHRISTIANS at least TRY to do all that He commands instead of cherry picking the commands they like.

Hope that clears up my deciphering of your writings.

Mary

 

[perrero]

I see you agree with the Catholic Church that Calvin was a heretic. Since the Catholic Church does not agree with Calvin and you, does that make you a heretic also?

Once again, Mary, the C church is the be all end all benchmark for everything that is Christian. It is the Word of God that determines whether the C church, Calvin or myself are on track or not. Calvin has established a theology that grievous to God's character of holiness and love and through that initial premise that God created people to go to heaven and others to hell it has affected every other doctrine that he put forward. As for the C church I'll answer your question with this one; "What is the 2nd commandment, out of the ten, that God gave to Moses? I'll give you the references because it doesn't look like you put much weight into God's Word. Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Now compare that with the 2nd commandment that the C church says it is. Now for me, if you want to call me a heretic, go right ahead. But please take the time to prove me wrong with Bible verses and make sure they are within context.

I suspect the Catholic Church and many other churches would say that YOUR beliefs do "not align with the word of God" and call you a heretic. Who is right? You or them?

"You suspect that the C church", come on, Mary, you want me to answer your suspicion. You don't think my beliefs line up with the Word of God? What beliefs Mary? If you expect me to answer your question, do you think maybe you should a little more specific. Something I may be able to defend or concede on. You're trowing out innuendos and I'm supposed to answer that. Time to get real.

How is it possible that the Catholic Church could be right about Calvin but not right about you and your beliefs? Are they only right if you agree with them? Does that not make you your own Pope of your own church?

Again, what beliefs are we talking about? Specifics please. And do me a favour, stop trying to debate or discuss things through the means of BoL posts. Try to use your own arguments and rebuttals. At least it gives me an idea what you think and believe and not what someone else does. It should give us a more honest discussion.

 

[perrero]

And your notion that God didn't have a clue as to what the future held for us is heresy.

This is precisely why you cannot understand why we celebrate the ETERNAL sacrifice of Christ at each and every mass.
Rev. 13:8 states in no uncertain terms that He was slain BEFORE the foundations of the world.

Did God create us?? YES.
Did He know that we would sin?? YES.
Did He choose sin for us?? NO.

Study your Bible.

If God knew that we would sin, he would not have been grieved and repented of creating man. Gen. 6:6
You're right I do not understand why you live in the past celebrating His sacrifice. Are you aware that He is risen and is now sitting at the right hand of the Father because of His Victory over death and hell thus allowing us through Him to also live in resurrection life and victory over our enemy.
Study your Bible