Jesus is a human being but not the one true God

[pia]

pia,

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but to say that 'he was A Son of Man' is not a biblical position, according to John 3:13, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (SBLNT).

ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου = ho huios tou anthrwpou = the Son of the Man.

Oz

He came as a son of mankind...........He became The Son of Man and then The Son of God.
You can't burst my bubble

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,

So are you Wondering from northern Italy? I'm the Aussie bloke from northern Brissy, Qld, Australia. Same fellow OzSpen.

Got a contract on my house on Saturday & hope to be leaving here to go to my down-sized 2-bedroom villa in a month.

In your understanding, is Jesus the One True God or only human? What saith the Scriptures?

Oz

Hi Oz,

If Jesus is ONLY human, then we've been worshipping a false god and breaking commandment no. 1 - the one, if not persued - makes all the rest of no consequence.

Thomas was with Jesus over three years. He doubted, as many men would. Who had ever heard of a dead man coming back to life?

But in John 20:28 Thomas proclaims, after having seen Jesus and having seen the scar from the Roman's sword that was thrust into Jesus' side...
"My Lord and My GOD".

Thomas understood what it meant to call Jesus God. If he had not believed Jesus was God, he would have committed idolatry.

Titus 2:13
Paul is looking for the appearance of "our great God and [our] Savior, Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for us...".

And who can forget John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word....
And the Word WAS GOD.

Jesus IS THE WORD
and THE WORD IS GOD.

Yes. I'd say Jesus IS GOD.

While He was on earth, He prayed to THE FATHER, and gave glory to the Father, and addressed the Father who was still in heaven.

He was 100% man and 100% God.
He cried for Jerusalem as a man might.
He was resurrected as God might.

 

[GodsGrace]

He came as a son of mankind...........He became The Son of Man and then The Son of God.
You can't burst my bubble

Hi Pia,
Just got here.
You're saying something I've never heard before.

Jesus became a "son of man", as in the O.T. Okay.

Then you said that AFTER this He became the Son of God.

How did Jesus become the Son of God AFTER becoming the Son of Man?

Is this something we could replicate and maybe we also could become Sons of God?? (in the same way)

Interesting concept.
I hope you explain.

 

[Helen]

Isa 9: 6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

God, Son of God, and Son of man.

 

[OzSpen]

He came as a son of mankind...........He became The Son of Man and then The Son of God.
You can't burst my bubble

You provided zero Scripture to support your doctrine. Not one reference!

In #158 I demonstrated to you that the Greek NT confirms that 'No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man' (John 3:13 ESV). The one who descended from heaven was not only the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 (ESV) states: 'And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you [Mary], and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God'.

So Jesus was the Son of God and the Son of Man. Jesus was fully God and fully human. In theology this is called the hypostatic union:

T'he hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man' (What is the hypostatic union? Got Questions).
​

With which group are you associated that is influencing your views on the nature of Christ? Are you a JW, a Christadelphian, from The Way International, or some other group?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

You provided zero Scripture to support your doctrine. Not one reference!

In #158 I demonstrated to you that the Greek NT confirms that 'No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man' (John 3:13 ESV). The one who descended from heaven was not only the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 (ESV) states: 'And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you [Mary], and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God'.

So Jesus was the Son of God and the Son of Man. Jesus was fully God and fully human. In theology this is called the hypostatic union:

T'he hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man' (What is the hypostatic union? Got Questions).
​

With which group are you associated that is influencing your views on the nature of Christ? Are you a JW, a Christadelphian, from The Way International, or some other group?

Oz

Oz,

I also would like to understand @pia's explanation that Jesus was the Son of Man first, and THEN became the Son of God.

I hope she explains. I've never heard this before...

 

[ScottA]

pia,

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but to say that 'he was A Son of Man' is not a biblical position, according to John 3:13, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (SBLNT).

ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου = ho huios tou anthrwpou = the Son of the Man.

Oz

It is not wrong to consider that Jesus was the Son of God even before the foundation of the world...but it is in the world that we see the timeline manifest:

Matthew 3:16-17
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

So...if we say that Jesus was first born of the flesh, a man, as those who are dead, after John's baptism, we are correct. But also, if we say that He was the Son even before the foundation of the world, we are also correct.

That is the thing about "created" time.

 

[Helen]

Matt 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of his glory.."
(Mark 2:10). But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins -
(Mark 2:28). So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).
It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming on the clouds of heaven (Matthew 26:64).

And about 60 more times...

He was always God. And always the Lamb slain before the beginning of creation...

I am obviously out of this loop and have no idea what your position is on this
@OzSpen I don't get why you say Jesus Christ was not the Son Of Man...when He Himself call Himself the son of man!!

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I also would like to understand @pia's explanation that Jesus was the Son of Man first, and THEN became the Son of God.

I hope she explains. I've never heard this before...

GodsGrace,

If you read the former evangelical scholar, now skeptic and liberal scholar, Bart Ehrman, you'll find this kind of theology. See his book, How Jesus Became God.

On Dr Larry Hurtado's blog you'll find his review of Ehrman's book at, How Jesus became “God,” per Ehrman | Larry Hurtado's Blog. Here's another review at: Bauckham's Line: A Review of "How Jesus Became God".

Ehrman objected to some of the content in Hurtado's book review, so Hurtado has made these changes in Ehrman on Jesus: Amendments.

Hurtado was my very first teacher of NT Greek when I took a summer course at Regent College, Vancouver BC, way back in the late 70s.

Jesus becoming God is actively promoted by people like Ehrman. This could be where pia picks up some of her views. I await clarification from Pia.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It is not wrong to consider that Jesus was the Son of God even before the foundation of the world...but it is in the world that we see the timeline manifest:

Matthew 3:16-17
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

So...if we say that Jesus was first born of the flesh, a man, as those who are dead, after John's baptism, we are correct. But also, if we say that He was the Son even before the foundation of the world, we are also correct.

That is the thing about "created" time.

I agree.

However, 'the firstborn from the dead' is another topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

@OzSpen

Read a little bit of what you linked.
Ehrman really does not like Christianity.
This could sure put a lot of doubt into some people's minds.
I do wonder why he would spend so much time writing the books he wrote?
Will read some more...

 

[OzSpen]

@OzSpen

Read a little bit of what you linked.
Ehrman really does not like Christianity.
This could sure put a lot of doubt into some people's minds.
I do wonder why he would spend so much time writing the books he wrote?
Will read some more...

GodsGrace,

My view is that Ehrman became apostate when he revoked his Gospel-based Christianity for his now liberal view.

One of the challenges with his book, How Jesus Became Go, is that it is written for the laity level for a popular audience. Those who don't know their Bible and are challenged by Ehrman's Christianised beliefs, may be caused to waiver in their faith.

I often wonder why people who want to destroy Gospel-based Christianity continue to work in a religious environment. We see it with other scholars such as Robert Funk, Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong, Rudolph Bultmann, Paul Tillich and a string of others down through the years.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,

My view is that Ehrman became apostate when he revoked his Gospel-based Christianity for his now liberal view.

One of the challenges with his book, How Jesus Became Go, is that it is written for the laity level for a popular audience. Those who don't know their Bible and are challenged by Ehrman's Christianised beliefs, may be caused to waiver in their faith.

I often wonder why people who want to destroy Gospel-based Christianity continue to work in a religious environment. We see it with other scholars such as Robert Funk, Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, John Shelby Spong, Rudolph Bultmann, Paul Tillich and a string of others down through the years.

Oz

Oz,
Because misery wants company.
They'd all like us to join them in their boat.
Satan is Always ready to help those that want to help him to convince persons not to believe.

IOW, they need confirmation. What better confirmation than to see Others abandon their faith just like they did.

Have to leave for a couple of days.
When I get back...

 

[pia]

Hi Pia,
Just got here.
You're saying something I've never heard before.

Jesus became a "son of man", as in the O.T. Okay.

Then you said that AFTER this He became the Son of God.

How did Jesus become the Son of God AFTER becoming the Son of Man?

Is this something we could replicate and maybe we also could become Sons of God?? (in the same way)

Interesting concept.
I hope you explain.

Hi.
I think 'ByGrace' put it as concisely as is possible....Great way to write it.....So you good? Do you recall seeing in the NT about Jesus being the LAST Adam? It's all tied in with that....

 

[pia]

You provided zero Scripture to support your doctrine.

doctrine????? just quoted out a couple of things I've read in the bible.......... I'm not here to quote scripture, enough doing that already....

 

[pia]

Oz,

I also would like to understand @pia's explanation that Jesus was the Son of Man first, and THEN became the Son of God.

I hope she explains. I've never heard this before...

Hi,
Before the universe/earth was even made, we are told in the Bible that He who became Jesus, was in the beginning THE WORD and was with God, and was God ( in john ) He came upon the earth as a word/seed from God through Gabriel ( I think it was ) was accepted by Mary and that Word, became the human boy/man Jesus..........Even that night the angels are quoted as saying it to the shepherds.
We are only shown that God calls Jesus His beloved Son, after he is a grown man, and STILL without sin.
He is also the firstborn from among the dead, so He accomplished a whole lot of stuff, which has taken me 33 years to understand, so far !
Have a nice day, and just so you know right up front, I'm not here to argue, scripture or otherwise, and I don't mind replying, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous..........Blessings Pia

 

[amadeus]

doctrine????? just quoted out a couple of things I've read in the bible.......... I'm not here to quote scripture, enough doing that already....

Keep on smiling Pia. Try this verse:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

How like Him are we able to be? God can do anything and will, if we do not stand in His Way.

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

 

[pia]

God can do anything and will, if we do not stand in Hi

Hi there ( big smile ) ...Thanks.......Some years back I was shown to understand two scriptures in light of each other like this :" All things are possible TO those who believe; that all things are possible WITH God." Always loved that ! You have yourself a lovely day, and please give your wife a word of encouragement....She's doing great ! In His Peace Pia

 

[pia]

Hi Pia,
Just got here.
You're saying something I've never heard before.

Jesus became a "son of man", as in the O.T. Okay.

Then you said that AFTER this He became the Son of God.

How did Jesus become the Son of God AFTER becoming the Son of Man?

Is this something we could replicate and maybe we also could become Sons of God?? (in the same way)

Interesting concept.
I hope you explain.

Hi,
Before the universe/earth was even made, we are told in the Bible that He who became Jesus, was in the beginning THE WORD and was with God, and was God ( in john ) He came upon the earth as a word/seed from God through Gabriel ( I think it was ) was accepted by Mary and that Word, became the human boy/man Jesus..........Even that night the angels are quoted as saying it to the shepherds.
We are only shown that God calls Jesus His beloved Son, after he is a grown man, and STILL without sin.
He is also the firstborn from among the dead, so He accomplished a whole lot of stuff, which has taken me 33 years to understand, so far !
Have a nice day, and just so you know right up front, I'm not here to argue, scripture or otherwise, and I don't mind replying, as long as it doesn't get ridiculous..........Blessings Pia sorry I had sent it to who answered you by mistake, sorry for delay

 

[OzSpen]

I am obviously out of this loop and have no idea what your position is on this
@OzSpen I don't get why you say Jesus Christ was not the Son Of Man...when He Himself call Himself the son of man!!

Where did I state that?

Oz