Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[GodsGrace]

If we do sin the apostle writes:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

In the OT God speaks of 10 times the people tempted God and for that they lost their ability to enter their Promised Land:

" Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Num 14:22-23

But, Moses, the man of God only tempted God once when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it.

For them and for us Jesus speaks these words:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

The key words are "much is given" and "much is required". Moses was given much more than the other children of Israel so he was only allowed the one failure. And we...?

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matt 11:11

The time of the Baptist was before the beginning of the kingdom of heaven, but our time is another thing, is it not? We have been given more than Moses who was given more than the children of Israel. Have we not also been given more than the Baptist who was given more than Moses?

So then how much is required of us when we have received so much? At what point will God treat us with regard to our "Promised Land" as he did most the children of Israel including Moses?

You're right.
WE are under the New Covenant which is superior to the Mosaic Covenant.

At what point?
We will Always sin.
If we are IN CHRIST, we will be forgiven.
But God knows the heart.
He will not be mocked...
We must be sincere in our efforts.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's a parable.
Do you always take parables literally?

Yes.
I take everything Jesus said literally.
He had only 3 1/2 years on this earth.
He didn't waste words.
Every time He opened His mouth to say something,
He said something important and for our benefit and salvation.

 

[Job]

But, to avert one's eye means that the person has seen truth and now refuses to accept it.

Refusing to accept the truth makes one a nonbeliever. Nonbelievers have no place in the kingdom of God.

o

 

[amadeus]

You said: "A born again person has nothing more than what Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden prior to their sin. They could and did sin. So can we!"

We have more than Adam and Eve.

I don't know if A&E were saved, but our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. God's people repent, maybe continuously, and sin no longer reigns over us. Sin has been taken care of, Jesus overcame the world. We are in Christ. No condemnation. It is a done deal.

The Blood of Jesus my friend is effectively what Adam and Eve had for it was nothing less than the Holy Spirit of God covering them. They sinned and effectively uncovered themselves for they then suddenly realized they were naked. They attempted to make a covering but it did not suffice. God gave them a better covering of skins, but it was also temporary to keep them until Jesus provided again the covering of the Holy Spirit that they had discarded when they disobeyed God.

We do not have more than Adam and Eve had before they sinned.

 

[Job]

What do you mean by this use of Hebrews 6?

I was answering a question.

The passage itself is self explanatory.

o

 

[amadeus]

You're right.
WE are under the New Covenant which is superior to the Mosaic Covenant.

At what point?
We will Always sin.
If we are IN CHRIST, we will be forgiven.
But God knows the heart.
He will not be mocked...
We must be sincere in our efforts.

The key again is that there is a limit as to how far we can push and expect God to continue to grant us mercy. We do not know as the children of Israel did know when they had passed the point of no return in tempting God. We don't know so each time we sin, are testing or tempting God.

Peter asked Jesus a question in this verse:
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?" Matt 18:21

And Jesus responded:
"... I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:22

Jesus was telling us to be merciful, but God as we know is more merciful, but as we saw with Israel there is a limit to His mercy. More tha 490 times, I know I have failed God and He has forgiven me. Each time I tempt Him again is it not at my peril? God help us all!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes.
I take everything Jesus said literally.
He had only 3 1/2 years on this earth.
He didn't waste words.
Every time He opened His mouth to say something,
He said something important and for our benefit and salvation.

There is nothing in the parable that says he lost his salvation.
The truth is we were once all dead though we were living bodies.
We may have known who God was, gone to church, and then walked away from it all.
But when we reach a low point in our lives, we turn to God and ask for mercy and he gives us mercy.
He fills us with his Holy Spirit and we are saved.

Not the other way around.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was answering a question.

The passage itself is self explanatory.

o

I'm sorry to interrupt, but people use this passage in various ways.
It was not meant for me, sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

The key again is that there is a limit as to how far we can push and expect God to continue to grant us mercy. We do not know as the children of Israel did know when they had passed the point of no return in tempting God. We don't know so each time we sin, are testing or tempting God.

Peter asked Jesus a question in this verse:
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?" Matt 18:21

And Jesus responded:
"... I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:22

Jesus was telling us to be merciful, but God as we know is more merciful, but as we saw with Israel there is a limit to His mercy. More tha 490 times, I know I have failed God and He has forgiven me. Each time I tempt Him again is it not at my peril? God help us all!

I don't believe it's at your peril.
I believe that if we do our best, Jesus will cover for the rest.
It's at the point that we no longer wish to serve God or abandon Him that we become lost once again.

The N.T. is clear is saying that IF we endure, IF we hold on, IF we continue to believe, then we are well with God.

I believe He wants us to be happy and secure in Him
Jesus said He came to give us a life more abundant.
How could it be abundants if we worry all the time?

Jesus was like us in every resepect except He did not sin.
He knows our frailites and our failures.

John 3:16
Whosoever BELIEVETH (present tense) in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Just believe and live as Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is nothing in the parable that says he lost his salvation.
The truth is we were once all dead though we were living bodies.
We may have known who God was, gone to church, and then walked away from it all.
But when we reach a low point in our lives, we turn to God and ask for mercy and he gives us mercy.
He fills us with his Holy Spirit and we are saved.

Not the other way around.

I agree with you.
What do you mean by "Not the other way around"?

Luke 15:24 is very clear. It can't be any clearer.
The son was saved and living with the father.
He asked for his inheritance, which the father did give him , and that was ALL he was going to get.

In Luke 15:21 the son confesses to the father and tells him he has sinned against his father AND heaven... the son himself said he was no longer worthy to be called a son.

Jesus told this parable for many reasons, but the two main ones are:

1. God Father is Always waiting for us to come to Him and be forgiven.
2. It is possible to leave God and return (or go) into the world and become lost.
But the Father will Always be waiting for us. His love for His children will Always save us if that is what we want.

 

[amadeus]

I don't believe it's at your peril.
I believe that if we do our best, Jesus will cover for the rest.

I believe it is at our peril if we knowingly sin, rather than in ignorance.

It's at the point that we no longer wish to serve God or abandon Him that we become lost once again.

The N.T. is clear is saying that IF we endure, IF we hold on, IF we continue to believe, then we are well with God.

I believe we are in agreement.

I believe He wants us to be happy and secure in Him
Jesus said He came to give us a life more abundant.
How could it be abundants if we worry all the time?

Absolutely, God created everything "very good" [Gen 1:31] for us. If we use it as He intended it is for us to enjoy without worries.

Jesus was like us in every resepect except He did not sin.
He knows our frailites and our failures.

Indeed, just like us, except when we first met Him, we already had adopted many of man's ways which when followed always lead us back to sin. Jesus started out with the Spirit and the Word, so there were never any of man's ways in Him that needed overcoming.

John 3:16
Whosoever BELIEVETH (present tense) in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Just believe and live as Jesus taught.

Amen!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree with you.
What do you mean by "Not the other way around"?

Luke 15:24 is very clear. It can't be any clearer.
The son was saved and living with the father.
He asked for his inheritance, which the father did give him , and that was ALL he was going to get.

In Luke 15:21 the son confesses to the father and tells him he has sinned against his father AND heaven... the son himself said he was no longer worthy to be called a son.

Jesus told this parable for many reasons, but the two main ones are:

1. God Father is Always waiting for us to come to Him and be forgiven.
2. It is possible to leave God and return (or go) into the world and become lost.
But the Father will Always be waiting for us. His love for His children will Always save us if that is what we want.

There are three parables in Chapter 15.
The lost sheep
The lost coin
The lost son
What is Jesus trying to say that ties these three together?

 

[Job]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but people use this passage in various ways.
It was not meant for me, sorry.

If you believe that passage is not meant for you, then you are not a true believer. I'm not passing judgement on you. You pass it on yourself when you reject the Word of God.

o

 

[GodsGrace]

There are three parables in Chapter 15.
The lost sheep
The lost coin
The lost son
What is Jesus trying to say that ties these three together?

Jesus tells us what ties them together Himself:

There is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents. Luke 15:7
There is joy in the presence of angels over one sinner who repents. Luke 15:10
We should rejoice because a Brother was lost and has become saved. Luke 15:32

God is joyful when a sinner repents and joins the Kingdom of God.

 

[tabletalk]

The Blood of Jesus my friend is effectively what Adam and Eve had for it was nothing less than the Holy Spirit of God covering them. They sinned and effectively uncovered themselves for they then suddenly realized they were naked. They attempted to make a covering but it did not suffice. God gave them a better covering of skins, but it was also temporary to keep them until Jesus provided again the covering of the Holy Spirit that they had discarded when they disobeyed God.

We do not have more than Adam and Eve had before they sinned.

You might be correct. Thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If you believe that passage is not meant for you, then you are not a true believer. I'm not passing judgement on you. You pass it on yourself when you reject the Word of God.

o

Now that sounds like you are looking for trouble.
You don't answer my question saying it is for someone else.
Then you accuse me of avoiding it.
SPEAK WHAT IT MEANS IF YOU KNOW.

 

[Job]

Now that sounds like you are looking for trouble.
You don't answer my question saying it is for someone else.
Then you accuse me of avoiding it.
SPEAK WHAT IT MEANS IF YOU KNOW.

Settle down Harold. The original post was for someone else until you stepped in and made it about you.

o

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus tells us what ties them together Himself:

There is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents. Luke 15:7
There is joy in the presence of angels over one sinner who repents. Luke 15:10
We should rejoice because a Brother was lost and has become saved. Luke 15:32

God is joyful when a sinner repents and joins the Kingdom of God.

Right, but none of that says they lost their salvation.
You are adding words to Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right, but none of that says they lost their salvation.
You are adding words to Scripture.

How am I adding words to scripture??

Luke 15:24
"For this son of mine was DEAD (the son was dead when he was in the world after leaving home)

And has come to life AGAIN" (this means the son already had life before, then lost it, when he abandoned his father, and now he has life AGAIN)

It's clear.

Did those in 2 Peter 2:20-21 lose their salvation?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Settle down Harold. The original post was for someone else until you stepped in and made it about you.

o

Boy, are you trouble.
Do you ever interact with real people in real life?