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101G

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Did those in 2 Peter 2:20-21 lose their salvation?
Don't mean to butt in, if I may respond to this
lets keep on reading,
2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire".

is there anything too hard for the Lord?, let's see if one get dirty is it beyond God?. Psalms 51:7 -13 "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit".
 

GodsGrace

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So it is the perception of salvation that is in question. In which case I would ask why would people be able to do things by the Spirit, such as driving out demons, and then cry Lord Lord and be told by Jesus that he never knew them.Matthew 7:22.

For the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation.
Mathew 7:22 is a very interesting verse.
The persons that Jesus is stalking about did some visual things to act as believers, or maybe they were believers, BUT, what did jesus say at the end...

Mathew 7:23
"And then I will declare to them, ' I never knew you, depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

It's not enough to prophecy or cast out demons, it's necessary to follow the commandments of Jesus and live as He taught.
 

GodsGrace

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Don't mean to butt in, if I may respond to this
lets keep on reading,
2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire".

is there anything too hard for the Lord?, let's see if one get dirty is it beyond God?. Psalms 51:7 -13 "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit".
Je ne sais pas what you're talking about!!
How does your second paragraph explain what I posted?
Referring to 2 Peter 2:20-21

Your second paragraph only happens if the person is willing to be washed...
 
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bbyrd009

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I was just trying to get your attention.
God cannot stop believing in himself
And neither can we...
ah ok, ty, and fwiw i would not counsel you to abandon your belief, so much as to examine how believing in something in Scripture can close your mind to even reading other Scripture that presents a different pov. It is possible to have no belief in the matter iow. Another way to say it is that you are completely right from a certain perspective, and could no be any wronger from another. And it is in making a choice to believe one "side" of a doctrine or another that we maybe reveal where we stand, where our heart is.

"what is true will shortly be false"

of course it is possible to succumb to one of the many offers that seem to good to refuse that seem to rain down upon you after you commit to following Christ; people do it all the time. It is easy to accept the counterfeit offered believing that it is God's will, in that time when a decision is called for and God has stepped back, because the decision is yours. ha i took the money like ten times lol. i was not following Christ, i was jumping in the driver's seat.

your best shot might be to argue that everyone in that position eventually returns, a la the Prodigal, but we already know that many who "accepted Christ" died in...circumstances that would strongly suggest that that is not true.

So you are left with a dilemma; and ignoring it is not resolving it imo. I seriously doubt "salvation" is the on/off switch we make it out to be, that happened once back there in the past, making the argument pretty much moot to me, and personally i would Understand I AM in this context, but i am aware that ppl are endlessly fascinated with whether there is an ironclad guarantee of whether their belief is the "right" one or not, not realizing that they cannot state a single absolute spiritual truth (doctrine) from Scripture; unless i need to take a poll on that now, others might feel differnt there too prolly i guess
 

Rollo Tamasi

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"we already know" is not a fact.
You cannot speak for me nor I for you.
Judas Iscariot was not saved, I am convinced.
Many disagree.

What I do know is myself, the belief I have given to me by God.
If someone says it is greater than another, they are a Calvinist and another argument pursues.
I can only speak for myself.
OSAS
Amen.

Psalm 23:6;
"And I shall live in the House of the Lord forever".
 
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Job

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Je ne sais pas what you're talking about!!
How does your second paragraph explain what I posted?
Referring to 2 Peter 2:20-21

Your second paragraph only happens if the person is willing to be washed...

This is true. God will not force the gift of life on anyone.

o
 

Helen

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BG,
A son is not Always a son.
The Prodigal son left his father.
Here is a post from another thread. (there must be two salvation threads...)

Luke 15:24
The son became DEAD after he left his father.
The father had given him his inheritance and he was to receive no more.

The father says that the son WAD DEAD and had come to life AGAIN.

This means the son was
alive
dead
alive again

When one LEAVES the Father and Jesus who is the vine that gives us life,
he becomes DEAD.

Garbage in.....garbage out....
 

amadeus

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lol, funny
he who holds out to the end will be saved implies that many or some do not hold out to the end
A lot of truth in that. A big problem in the argument about losing salvation is different people have different ideas about what being saved means.

If we are only talking about the final thing a being God always, God knows who is going to be there and who is not. For each person there is a final judgment for or against. When we discuss this among ourselves we each of us speak usually according to what is in our own mind or heart about being saved.

I am one who would say, I have been saved, I am being saved and I have yet to be saved. The man sent by God out to Judah to the northern 10 tribes of Israel specifically to King Jeroboam, the first northern king, provided the example of a man who was saved and was being saved but at the end he looked away from God and lost what he already had [I Kings chapter 13]. We could say he was never really saved, but for a fact he was really used as the right hand of God in the beginning of the chapter. The king who tried to stop him received a withered hand. The man of God predicted the future and long after his death his prediction came to pass. The man of God did not check in with God at a critical moment, disobeyed God and was killed by a lion on his way home.

The real problem I see with what we name as OSAS [once saved always saved] is that these people may well be like the man of God out of Judah before he failed to check in with God. He was on the Lord's side. Then he was not.

I have seen real people who were serving God and then stopped serving Him. When a person does that he cannot forget what he experienced with God, but his result is a painful existence in which he knows what God offers to people, but he can never humble himself to obtain it again. He has dropped too according to his own evaluation of the situation. Believers in OSAS say that this cannot happen to them and they really believe that and trust God with everything, they may be correct. Too many of them, I believe, do not have that kind of faith so they should perhaps hold their tongues until they do.
 
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Job

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Therefore, to debate this issue is basically fruitless unless a new person is on board and wants more understanding.

How do you know there isn't? These places are full of lurkers and one doesn't have to be a registered member to follow along.

o
 

mjrhealth

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"Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matt 25:21
Is this not teh problem.?? We all desire to be the "perfect' son yet God only ever had one, His name is Jesus. God knew full well what we where going to do, so much has happened behind teh scenes of which so few are aware, and I can guarantee God has far more aces up His sleeve than ewe can imagine, you know this bit.

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

So God has a plan and He will accomplish it, He didnt start all this without first planning teh end. So ill just trust Him and not lean on my own understanding. Could never figure Him out anyway if I tried.
 

amadeus

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Is this not teh problem.?? We all desire to be the "perfect' son yet God only ever had one, His name is Jesus. God knew full well what we where going to do, so much has happened behind teh scenes of which so few are aware, and I can guarantee God has far more aces up His sleeve than ewe can imagine, you know this bit.

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

So God has a plan and He will accomplish it, He didnt start all this without first planning teh end. So ill just trust Him and not lean on my own understanding. Could never figure Him out anyway if I tried.
Yes, it is our own understanding, which, if we follow it, will get us into trouble. In a tiny measure, sometimes, God will let us see His plan, but in spite of that we will still sometimes find ourselves missing the Way.
 

Truth

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Great response! Laughter is good for the Soul!
 

Truth

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I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

I think Salvation can be Lost, But there were those that Paul described as, If they had been with us they would not have departed from us. So is everyone that claims to be a believer, a believer ?