The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[ScottA]

If you are under sin, then you are under Law, which includes not just Jews, but also Gentiles. You can only be released from Law, once you have been released from sin, where subsequently, in being released from sin, you obey Law. The release from sin happens at the baptism of the holy spirit. Only few are chosen for this.

All are under sin and death, but all were not given the law.

Therefore, the gentiles who now come to Christ, do not come under the law, but under Christ whom is no more under the law, but made perfect having overcome sin and death. This is the gift of eternal life, uniquely given to "the living" "in Christ." These are "the first, who are last", a distinction given them by Christ.

 

[christiang]

All are under sin and death, but all were not given the law.

Therefore, the gentiles who now come to Christ, do not come under the law, but under Christ whom is no more under the law, but made perfect having overcome sin and death. This is the gift of eternal life, uniquely given to "the living" "in Christ." These are the first, who are the last, a distinction given them by Christ.

The Law reveals everything that is sin, therefore whoever is under sin is also under Law. Do you think "do not murder", which is a command in the Law that reveals that murder is sin, applies to only Jews, or to everyone?

 

[ScottA]

The Law reveals everything that is sin, therefore whoever is under sin is also under Law. Do you think "do not murder", which is a command in the Law that reveals that murder is sin, applies to only Jews, or to everyone?

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1 Corinthians 9:21
to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was bornaccording to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Galatians 5:16-18
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[christiang]

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1 Corinthians 9:21
to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was bornaccording to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Galatians 5:16-18
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

This is because of precisely what I told you earlier, whoever is freed from sin, becomes released from Law,

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:18 [NIV])

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin– because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. (Romans 6:6-7 [NIV])

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:6 [ESV])

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14 [NIV])

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Galatians 5:18 [NIV])

In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature… (Colossians 2:11 [BSB])

For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the ones having been sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 [ABP])

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:34-36 [NIV])

We know that every one being engendered of God does not sin; but the one engendered of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (I John 5:18 [ABP])

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 [KJV])

But while you are still sinning, you are still under Law, because you are still under sin. You can ever only die to the Law if you are freed from your sinful nature, in which case, whenever you are, you are caused to obey Law, which you were never able to obey on your own while having the sinful nature. Being freed from sin happens at the baptism of the holy spirit.

 

[ScottA]

This is because of precisely what I told you earlier, whoever is freed from sin, becomes released from Law,

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:18 [NIV])

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin– because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. (Romans 6:6-7 [NIV])

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:6 [ESV])

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14 [NIV])

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Galatians 5:18 [NIV])

In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature… (Colossians 2:11 [BSB])

For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the ones having been sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 [ABP])

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:34-36 [NIV])

We know that every one being engendered of God does not sin; but the one engendered of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (I John 5:18 [ABP])

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24 [KJV])

But while you are still sinning, you are still under Law, because you are still under sin. You can ever only die to the Law if you are freed from your sinful nature, in which case, whenever you are, you are caused to obey Law, which you were never able to obey on your own while having the sinful nature. Being freed from sin happens at the baptism of the holy spirit.

You are mixing the law (proper) given to Moses, with the natural law of sin and death (addressed by Paul). Which cannot be mixed, but were clearly described as distinct one from the other by Christ, as those being first and last.

Therefore, if we are to talk of the law of Moses, let us talk of those given the law. But if we are to talk of the law of sin and death which all are born into, then let us not talk about the law given to Moses.

 

[christiang]

You are mixing the law (proper) given to Moses, with the natural law of sin and death (addressed by Paul). Which cannot be mixed, but were clearly described as distinct one from the other by Christ, as those being first and last.

Therefore, if we are to talk of the law of Moses, let us talk of those given the law. But if we are to talk of the law of sin and death which all are born into, then let us not talk about the law given to Moses.

The Law of Moses reveals everything that is sin, so obviously those who are under sin that is revealed by that Law, are also under that Law. You are trying to separate the two, which logically cannot be separated, because the core of your problem is that you actually don't want to obey the Law of Moses.

 

[bbyrd009]

"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

The release from sin happens at the baptism of the holy spirit. Only few are chosen for this.

ya, we call them "special snowflakes" now, emphasis on the flake part, wadr. If you have some justification for this "The release from sin happens at the baptism of the holy spirit" part it might be relevant to post it now. Assuming that you have realized and repented of the previous issue up there, i scrolled down so i don't know about that part.

 

[bbyrd009]

because the core of your problem is

ah, nevermind then

 

[ScottA]

The Law of Moses reveals everything that is sin, so obviously those who are under sin that is revealed by that Law, are also under that Law. You are trying to separate the two, which logically cannot be separated, because the core of your problem is that you actually don't want to obey the Law of Moses.

Tell it to Christ the Son, for it was He, not I, who separated the two. But I have reminded you, and now you judge me and do not even know me.

 

[christiang]

Tell it to Christ the Son, for it was He, not I, who separated the two. But I have reminded you, and now you judge me and do not even know me.

I don't judge you, the Law does. I am merely advising that you need to obey it after you come to knowledge and understanding of it.

 

[DPMartin]

Tell it to Christ the Son, for it was He, not I, who separated the two. But I have reminded you, and now you judge me and do not even know me.

well Scott don't cry about it, being accused of being a sinner isn't the worst thing there is.

thing is the law shows that we are sinners and that we are not the Son of God (hence fall short). but on the other hand it witnesses that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. and all souls under the law or not are sinners:




Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


no one is wiser on this for the gentiles then Paul other than Jesus Himself

 

[ScottA]

well Scott don't cry about it, being accused of being a sinner isn't the worst thing there is.

thing is the law shows that we are sinners and that we are not the Son of God (hence fall short). but on the other hand it witnesses that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. and all souls under the law or not are sinners:




Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


no one is wiser on this for the gentiles then Paul other than Jesus Himself

Paul spoke to those under both covenants...and these passages that you quote and are true of those under the law, do not contradict or make void those that I have quoted pertaining to those under the new covenant who are not under the law, but under Christ.

 

[tabletalk]

Paul spoke to those under both covenants...and these passages that you quote and are true of those under the law, do not contradict or make void those that I have quoted pertaining to those under the new covenant who are not under the law, but under Christ.

The apostle Paul said that he, with the mind, serves the law of God. (in Romans 7) And the flesh serves the law of Sin.
He was under law.

 

[DPMartin]

Paul spoke to those under both covenants...and these passages that you quote and are true of those under the law, do not contradict or make void those that I have quoted pertaining to those under the new covenant who are not under the law, but under Christ.

hey just throwing it out there, not really a part of the argument at hand.

anyway, its been my experience that the convictions of the faithful is the commandments which does as Paul says, establish the law, within ourselves. not as a hammer to beat those under grace into guilt and shame. its to seek to walk therein, not accuse those who don't according to ones own judgement.

when Jesus spoke the sermon on the mount He was specific about those who would break the law and teach others to, but on the other hand it is honorable to walk therein, and teach other to, or how to.

 

[Richard_oti]

Depth of meaning.....

Exodus 40:30-32 He set the basin between the tent of meeting and the altar, and put water in it for washing, with which Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet. When they went into the tent of meeting, and when they approached the altar, they washed, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Hebrews 10:19-22 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

I love God

Indubitably. I have no doubt that you do.

 

[amadeus]

With men it is impossible to stop sinning, but with God all things are possible.

Yes.

How does God make it possible for men to stop sinning? By his holy spirit - that's the only way it is possible, which is a righteousness that comes from God.

I agree that it is by the Holy Spirit, but what is it that the Holy Spirit does in a man?

This is why the scriptures declare that anyone who is born of God, meaning they have been baptized with the holy spirit, cannot ever sin again.

And what verse(s) of scripture did you use to draw this conclusion?

It was the very purpose of the first coming of Jesus Christ, not only to atone for previous sins committed, but to perfect his people through his blood and the sanctification of the holy spirit, which the blood of animals were never able to do.

And what happened to this?

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Unless you reach this full stature of Jesus Christ, you will not inherit the kingdom of God, for only those who become born of the Spirit may inherit the kingdom of God, whereas those who are still enslaved to sin do not partake in the inheritance of those who have become freed from sin and given the right to become sons of God by the holy spirit.

When does a person have to be a good steward? While he is a steward is not yet an heir, is he?

 

[amadeus]

Because I teach obedience to the commands of God, humility by selling your possessions, good works by giving to the poor, and the wrath that is soon to come at the second coming of Jesus Christ? Ohhh okay, well you continue on in whatever fables you've deceived yourself into believing, that you have no need to do good works after believing, nor even obey the Law of God, and we'll concern ourselves with actually obeying and serving the Lord reflecting our belief. There's a reason why your churches are full of sexual immorality and greedy men, because you have deceived yourselves into thinking that the gospel is a message of mere belief without deeds, nor necessity of obedience to commands of God, as if Jesus Christ died on the cross to permit you to disobey.

But... is it OK to call a brother on this forum an idiot?

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matt 5:22

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37

 

[Richard_oti]

Think about why you are telling me this, what have I said that I should be berated by you, or any of these other people?

For one, it is your attitude.

I teach obedience to the commands of God

No, you teach partial obedience, and as in the case of a kid and milk, you go way beyond that which is written to the point of being ludicrous. You are partaking of the yeast of the pharisees.

why should this be cause to berate me?

ChristianG, you're reply to @"ByGrace" alone is cause enough from my perspective. However, I read your replies to others who tried to assist you.

Berate someone who teaches pursing wealth is okay, or that sexual immorality is okay, but you're going to berate me for obedience to the Law of God? Do you even realize what you are opposing?

<chuckle> Oh yes, I realize it, you. I have spent many many years opposed to such as yourself. All people who claim "the law" or some form thereof making near identical claims as yourself.

As I have said, perhaps I spent too many years amoung the cults of this world, assisting to break them down and bring some to truth. I have seen many like you.

What's the matter? You can berate or be harsh to others, but now you cry like a girl when it returns upon your own head? Oh, why me ...

 

[Richard_oti]

What have I missed? Be plain.

A kid and milk for starters. But as I have also pointed out to you, you have miss the mark regarding the horns. And that, was being polite.

You also miss the mark regarding making a distinction between that which is tame' and that which is tahor. Also with regard to shabat. You have made up a law for yourself. You accuse me with regard to milk and a burger of disregarding the Instruction of YHVH for the sake of my palette, yet you use a single verse from Bere'shit to justify your palette. Contrary to the obedience to the "commands" / "law" you claim to teach.

 

[Richard_oti]

Tell me, what am I in disobedience in specifically?

For a fact, with regard to shabat, and tame' and tahor. You fail to make a distinction.