Can you choose God?

[bbyrd009]

i am asking a question though, not judging.
The question asks for a response, that has not ever, and will not ever be sufficiently provided, in my opinion.
If you prove me wrong, so much the better

see, the inevitable nihilist response here is
"you are confused (i am thus superior in thinking, you are beneath me)," and "i am offended."
No meaningful reply is ever given, see

 

[APAK]

see, the inevitable nihilist response here is
"you are confused (i am thus superior in thinking, you are beneath me)," and "i am offended."
No meaningful reply is ever given, see

Ok, first we are walking in the Spirit..and it really and truly is real to us in every way and moment. A believer knows this already.
Let's start over with a question, do you choose God or does he choose you?

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok, first we are walking in the Spirit..and it really and truly is real to us in every way and moment. A believer knows this already.
Let's start over with a question, do you choose God or does he choose you?

APAK

seems to me that the futility of starting a new thread was just recently impressed upon you wadr

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace: I'm sorry you don't get it...my answers are italicized below

The bible is very simple, but there is incredible confusion in what you believe.

I’m not confused you are…it is very clear and straight forward to me

Seems like you have to make up your mind.

I see then you are unsure and left the door open for more input..that’s ok..

IF God plans everything for us and we sin, then YES, we are NOT responsible for our sin. It's God who made us sin. And YES, we ARE puppets.

I never said that God plans everything for us. Read the entire text…He usually does not interfere in our decisions regarding our work, family etc that do not disturb his spiritual plans for us, if any.

If WE choose, by our own free will, good or evil, then yes, we ARE responsible for our sins and God does not make us sin.

I agree with you…where did I not? I just want to point out though a critical point you may be forgetting, that if NOT a believer all our choices that produce sin is death…WE do have a choice to change this, right? We have a choice to turn to God, whatever form that God reckons is genuine. God already saw this and already planned a miraculous intervention for those that 'consider' God

You're making everything too complicated.

Again. it is not complicated as a believer in Christ. It is the bare minimum I’ve written.

Do we have free will or not?
Are we responsible for our sins or not?
Does God make us sin or not?

I kind of answered these 3 questions already...

Luke 13:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

This is Jesus speaking. He's saying that Jerusalem was not WILLING to be gathered to Him. J's children had a free will to be under Jesus' wings.

These people were never credited with salvation either. They were not believers. They were slaves to sin…they made their decision to ‘die’, spiritually.

Bless you,

APAK

This is what you said:

God already saw this and already planned a miraculous intervention for those that 'consider' God

The belief that God planned a miraculous intervention based on the fact that some "considered" God is saying that God intervenes constantly in the world order. This goes against the theological concept accepted by theologians that are NOT Calvinistic who state that because God KNOWS the future, does not mean that He intervenes in it.
You're saying He does intervene in it.

Anyway, the only part of this I'm interested in is free will.
Let's make it easy:
Do we have free will? Yes or no, or a very short answer.
Do we choose God? Yes or no, or a very short answer.

(it's really the same question)

 

[APAK]

seems to me that the futility of starting a new thread was just recently impressed upon you wadr

bbyrd009:

I have not a clue what you are saying. Let me guess at it though.

Are you saying that I, by impulse started a new thread without thinking it through first, a thread that have no practicality, or serves no purpose? Just because bbyrd009 cannot understand the thread then it is useless to me (that is you), right?

Are you really showing your pride here?

If I'm 50% , then you revealing some ignorance and do not want to 'see' what I'm writing or cannot understand it.

Further, you might be of the class of many that go around saying we make all the choices we have free-will etc. and then say I don't really know who chooses God, and you cannot know either.

It seems that you have not taken a Bible out in a while to find out.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

you posit that we sin bc God wants us to, even makes us, and i don't believe this can be Supported any kind of way wadr

I agree.
The above is the end result of not having free will.
This position cannot be possible since it would make God be evil and in God there is no evil.
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

bbyrd009:

I have not a clue what you are saying. Let me guess at it though.

Are you saying that I, by impulse started a new thread without thinking it through first, a thread that have no practicality, or serves no purpose? Just because bbyrd009 cannot understand the thread then it is useless to me (that is you), right?

Are you really showing your pride here?

If I'm 50% , then you revealing some ignorance and do not want to 'see' what I'm writing or cannot understand it.

Further, you might be of the class of many that go around saying we make all the choices we have free-will etc. and then say I don't really know who chooses God, and you cannot know either.

It seems that you have not taken a Bible out in a while to find out.

Bless you,


APAK

It seems to be @bbyrd009 knows what he believes.
It seems to me he knows the bible inside out.

 

[APAK]

This is what you said:

God already saw this and already planned a miraculous intervention for those that 'consider' God

The belief that God planned a miraculous intervention based on the fact that some "considered" God is saying that God intervenes constantly in the world order. This goes against the theological concept accepted by theologians that are NOT Calvinistic who state that because God KNOWS the future, does not mean that He intervenes in it.
You're saying He does intervene in it.

Anyway, the only part of this I'm interested in is free will.
Let's make it easy:
Do we have free will? Yes or no, or a very short answer.
Do we choose God? Yes or no, or a very short answer.

(it's really the same question)

GodsGrace: First, I do not do labels of Calvinism or others. If something I favor seems falls into a camp then so be it.

Nearly there....,,Yes, God sees, saw and intervenes, intervened already, in the past, oblivious to us in our lives, moment to moment. It is pre-planned. So in our eyes we do not see God intervening at all. We see things occurring as separate from God's doing. We see us as making all the decisions and we even take credit for most of it. And we know we do not control even those forces and things in our lives, right?

I really want to given a simple yes or no answer to the way you pose your questions. I would be treating you unfairly if I did though.
Here's by best way....I need to qualify these things, and answer both question together.

Our default state from birth, as an unbeliever is being a slave to sin and biased to own desires only. This means we are born already without a will or decision for or TO GOD. We do however have a will to work off our own desires...we cannot help it. I believe you call this 'free' will, I do not because we are a slave to self and evil. We use this will everyday to make it through life. WE cannot divorce ourselves from using this non-spiritual will. Animals have a similar 'free' will at their own level of intellect. When we must do things that become sin, they always means death, under the carnal will, without Christ and thus God. We have free will to not reach out to God, that is our default setting without Christ.

Even though we are born in a corrupt state, God has given us the capability to desire to know him or consider him if WE want to. We must choose to consider God, although this does not mean we choose God. Choosing God is the faith and commitment to Christ that God provides us to use (faith) to believe in our heart, the Christ. God made this all possible to choose him, at his desire and time. WE chose to trigger it (desire to know spiritual things of God) sometime in our lives, and God saw it. And God chose us and then we became a believer in his son. ....see the difference? God ultimately chose us because of our reaching out to him. When we reached out, it does not mean we chose him. We never really knew him until we believed in Christ so how can we choose him. Anyone can go around and say I believe in God, and say they chose God, although they are deceiving themselves. They never knew him until God already intervenes in the past fro sometime in their lives.

Now can you see why your first question is hard to say yes or no to because of your definition of it, and you are not considering the one will and two natures of a believer, and the one will and one nature of an unbeliever.
1st Q: we have NO TRUE FREE WILL, independent of an imperfect and corrupt heart as we are slaves to sin and/or slaves to God.,, to good and evil spirits of the world, self or in the heavens.
2nd Q: God chooses us to Christ. No, we do not CHOOSE God, ever.

I can do a scripture sourced version of all this if you want. I will need more time though.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

I have not a clue what you are saying. Let me guess at it though.

Are you saying that I, by impulse started a new thread without thinking it through first, a thread that have no practicality, or serves no purpose? Just because bbyrd009 cannot understand the thread then it is useless to me (that is you), right?

ah no, sry, i meant someone had just remarked on your desire to do a reset when your argument did not seem to be making any headway. But i may have misunderstood that. Anyway i would just ignore the thread or something if i felt that way

If I'm 50% , then you revealing some ignorance and do not want to 'see' what I'm writing or cannot understand it.

you aren't ever going to reply to my questions up there, are you

 

[APAK]

ah no, sry, i meant someone had just remarked on your desire to do a reset when your argument did not seem to be making any headway. But i may have misunderstood that. Anyway i would just ignore the thread or something if i felt that way

you aren't ever going to reply to my questions up there, are you

bbyrd009:

I believe I’ve answered your questions, if not please restate those you think I did respond to. Yes, the reason why I had to restart as you said is because I wanted to address some replies to this thread, to understand my view more clearly. I really did not have to do this..

The unbeliever KNOWS ABOUT God when he chooses God at his own time and place which is just an outer mind exercise and experience. It means nothing to God. We have no change in heart, only a more enlarged carnal mind that deceives and keep us in death.

We REALLY KNOW God when we genuinely reach out, and noted by God, and later choose Christ in God’s chosen and planned time and place, which is a mystery, a miracle and a holy affair. We ‘feel’ this experience deep inside out heart.

No one takes away someone, even themselves once God chooses someone. On the other hand, performing just an empty mental exercise, we are at liberty to change our minds all the time concerning God, like some people do when they say they have lost salvation and need to get it back. They never had it in the first place. Many ‘churches’ kill off a lot of people and condemn them to death this way. They do not have Jesus in their hearts, only in their fallen corrupt minds, which they teach as truth.


Bless you,


APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Further, you might be of the class of many that go around saying we make all the choices we have free-will etc.

For whatever reason, Free Will is the expression we have for the knowledge of good and evil; i guess the point was to differentiate us from animals that act purely from instinct? So the question of whether we really have Complete Freedom to choose whatever path we like in our next decision is a different subject entirely to me, and frankly i perceive it as just another attack on Today, and another way to discount works done from faith.

if there is no Free Will, then obviously one cannot really Change Their Minds, seems to me anyway.

This describes someone who cannot tell the difference between good and evil, right, not someone who wonders whether whatever choice they are about to make is predetermined or not. For that i would just ask a mother to describe the likely choice one of her children is about to make; will she likely get it right? Does that mean the child is bound to that decision?

So the truth that people act in character, and can be reliably predicted to choose a certain way by those who know them does not mean that they cannot act out of character, just that they generally do not.

and then say I don't really know who chooses God, and you cannot know either.

if we have no free will i don't see how we could choose God tbh, and it seems to me that those who "choose God" either do so or do not do so in every decision. So then if someone says "i choose God" and then serves themselves in their next decision, what have they done?

Aren't works meet for repentance generally recognized and applauded by even the world? Sometimes a generation later, after it becomes more obvious?

so fwiw imo we make all of the choices--they have become like Us, knowing good and evil--and usually works meet for repentance (or "who chooses God") is apparent in the moment, whether i can discern that or not. imo

 

[bbyrd009]

We REALLY KNOW God when we genuinely reach out, and noted by God, and later choose Christ in God’s chosen and planned time and place, which is a mystery, a miracle and a holy affair. We ‘feel’ this experience deep inside out heart.

is the impression i get there wadr, and imo mothers should teach this portion of the lesson. I did the feely thing for a lot of years, and i mean no offense, but imo this describes a person coming from their "female," in a way that a mother would not understand, or at least have no time for. It describes Institutional Conversions to me

Note that those who have "chosen" Christ and have feels deep in their hearts in the manner you describe usually go one to having seven worse spirits, and are twice the sons of hell as their mentors, too right

 

[APAK]

bbyrd009:
It is a mystery beyond me how and even when a person actually reaches out or considers God in their fallen state so God takes notice. It has to be a genuine reach out and in a humble state with a contrite heart. Scripture does say he gave us that life line in our corrupted state, to eventually know him. Although I would not even call this 'choosing' God because we do not know God until we receive Christ in our hearts. I think that is something not to be taken lightly.

Yes, you are right, public works for repentance is revered by the world as a good thing. Once we are in Christ, repentance even is an individual choice and one we will do if the spirit inside guides us to this point. God really does not need this from a child of God. He knows we are struggling and working out our salvation, each in their own way. Now we are on the topic of always having salvation or the hope of salvation and never losing it. The reason also I developed this thread was to build on it to show that once you have salvation in Christ, you can never lose it.

My take anyway,

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

No one takes away someone, even themselves once God chooses someone.

i'm not sure how well this will work on mom as an excuse for not doing the dishes (iow serving others), but i guess many ppl dislike this practical application type stuff. You make a statement here that assumes OSAS, i guess, and imo we have a different definition for "saved," which to me is not a switch that gets thrown once and cannot be moved, that determines one's state only after they have died.

you cannot accept Christ with your mouth, in my opinion

 

[bbyrd009]

On the other hand, performing just an empty mental exercise, we are at liberty to change our minds all the time concerning God, like some people do when they say they have lost salvation and need to get it back.

well, i doubt that is what "change your mind" in Scripture is meant to convey, but i agree that "change your mind" can be interpreted that way, yes. i also doubt that that is what is meant by "salvation" in Scripture, but i just gave my opinion there already

 

[APAK]

acceptance of Christ as per scripture is hearing the gospel first, and then accepting his free gift of salvation in our hearts and then a public genuine confession.....

 

[bbyrd009]

They never had it in the first place.

i notice believers spend a lot of time either in the past or in the future on this question/concept, ever notice that? "Salvation" is this, becomes this nebulous goal that no one is really sure about having gotten yesterday, or having keepin for tomorrow? This displays a misunderstanding of "Salvation" to me.

Not to diminish the truth, but imo a great perspective there is "if you do the dishes, you will be saved."
particularly if you do them simply because you see they need doing

 

[APAK]

i notice believers spend a lot of time either in the past or in the future on this question/concept, ever notice that? "Salvation" is this, becomes this nebulous goal that no one is really sure about having gotten yesterday, or having keepin for tomorrow? This displays a misunderstanding of "Salvation" to me.

Not to diminish the truth, but imo a great perspective there is "if you do the dishes, you will be saved."
particularly if you do them simply because you see they need doing

If I get your drift, you do dishes out of love.love that God know about if you ae

i notice believers spend a lot of time either in the past or in the future on this question/concept, ever notice that? "Salvation" is this, becomes this nebulous goal that no one is really sure about having gotten yesterday, or having keepin for tomorrow? This displays a misunderstanding of "Salvation" to me.

Not to diminish the truth, but imo a great perspective there is "if you do the dishes, you will be saved."
particularly if you do them simply because you see they need doing

If I get your drift, you will do the dishes out of love, that God knows about as being love as a child of God. This work of love is spontaneous. Now if we want to gain points from the wife we do it out of our outer mind and ego....a difference,,...getting my hair cut..see ya later

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

acceptance of Christ as per scripture is hearing the gospel first, and then accepting his free gift of salvation in our hearts and then a public genuine confession.....

yes, the Institutional Salvation experience was my introduction to religion, too, and i only found out later how much God hates religion myself. So, while i certainly don't disagree with your statement here, salvation to me is a disembodied concept that has no meaning apart from works, which are what will be judged; iow faith without works is dead.

this "free gift" of salvation means that we now have a remedy for sin that we may avail ourselves of, after we have recognized that the Law does not work; it does not mean that all we have to do is plead the blood when we sin, or even confess our sins to God when we sin, or worse yet to some guy in a dark closet; none of these things.

One's "public genuine confession" becomes moot when they cannot function in grace, imo, and there are many signs for this. One of the most obvious might be their "confession" after their public "profession," or iow the idle things that come out of one's mouth when they are not guarding what they say.

we are made so comfortable with the Hegelian Dialectic (a winner and a loser implied) at such a young stage that it becomes the MO, and i'm still realizing myself how this factors in to our "confession."

 

[bbyrd009]

The reason also I developed this thread was to build on it to show that once you have salvation in Christ, you can never lose it.

yes, and i would counsel reflecting upon the definition of "salvation" for that, as imo it is skewed, so as to assure better collections i guess. Mortgages to pay off and all that, after all.

i don't believe any religious person is 100% wrong, ok, but in my experience one can reliably trust that any Scriptural concept from a religious person is self-serving, and has been altered from what Scripture intended; at least when it is made into a "belief," which to us has the force of Law, even though that is exactly what we should not be doing, making new laws, right.

And anyone disputing that their beliefs should not be laws, who can find them lol.
Iow people believe that their beliefs should be imposed upon others, generally speaking anyway, right
OT living, iow.

OSAS is a silly, dangerous panacea offered to the deceived because they want it, not because it is true. And it is disputed all over the Bible, too, beginning with "twice the sons of hell that you are" imo.

so see how the Bible describes one grasping for a "salvation experience" as deceived by seven worse spirits, and becoming twice the son of hell, while people, religious ppl describe them as "OSAS."