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Featured Can you choose God?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by APAK, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well and i guess many do not, too, and as strange as it seems, both serve God right.
     
  2. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    WE are told to guard our hearts and if we do not we stunt our growth in the spirit if we boast and then allow our fallen mind to take credit. Part of my story since I accepted grace and the gift of God to salvation is one of many highs and a few deep lows that I regret in life. There are much more highs today as I pray always that my Lord will guard my heart in humility and his understanding and his ways. WE cannot say we are winners from the fallen mind. A believer will walk in love and humility and showing the fruit(s) of the spirit.

    //
    My wife is a champ, and a 'strong' believer. she just cut my hair..just cleaned off outside the front porch. I asked her if she did it out of love or just to gain points...she said she did it for me and it needed to de done....translation: I would say she did it from her heart from the love that God can only provide.

    APAK
     
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  3. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Yes the abbreviation OSAS can be dangerous if not understood completely. I can boldly bring out scripture to support it and then I will see another interpretation by others saying it means the opposite. I always wonder if they are looking at all the scriptural puzzle pieces in play or are just cherry picking for a self-made outcome or doctrine? I have to say the latter.

    If one looks at all scripture regarding our will, God's role in our salvation, works, faith, repentance that forms a complete picture, hidden in the heart of a believer and not in the 'church,' it is plain we cannot lose salvation. There are several scripture passages that clearly say that God chooses us and our salvation is secured; ven if we are the least in the Kingdom. Do you think God will discard the ones he has chosen....???? great question right?..and even scripture supports that he will never given up his own that he gave to Christ for safekeeping.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  4. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Addressing the OP. Can you choose God? (1 Corinthians 9: 17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

    Freewill is way overrated. Freewill offerings are only mentioned in the OT in pertaining to the flesh. But the flesh couldn't accomplish what only God can accomplish. My experience has been not of freewill but what only God can work which is to make whole (mind, body and Spirit), to set free, and to repair the breach between God and man. I didn't have much choice in the matter. Could I reject His call? After God comes in and cuts off everything that once held meaning and significance (the temporal) until I finally saw nothing holds value or significance without Him: why would I resist His call? When He has clearly shown; I have nothing and am nothing apart from God. It is not "freewill" to be poor(Spiritually), or broken and of a contrite heart. It is not our will to suffer. Tribulation comes. God does it to overcome the world in each of us.

    Often, in reading through the forum and everyone's definition of who God is, I wonder if I know Him. Because it seems we all serve a different God. To some: God does nothing. To some: man is still in charge of his path which I don't understand: when His word clearly says God writes the truth (the law of liberty) on a new heart and causes the new heart to walk in it. I'm not saying I have or know the One true living God. Sometimes I wonder with all the definitions of who God is going around, if I do know Him. If interested; here is who God is to me. Prove it wrong. If I am seriously misled, I want to know.

    Genesis 27:39-40
    [39] And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; [40] And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

    Esau...
    When the flesh (beast) has dominion...you will break the yoke off your neck.

    (Do you choose God?) :

    Jeremiah 15:2-3
    [2] And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the Lord ; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity. [3] And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.

    Four. He appoints four to accomplish God's purpose. Which is to break until only God is exalted in glory. What God does is appoint to break Kingdoms. The final beast to devour (the whole earth) and destroy.

    Ezekiel 14:21-22
    [21] For thus saith the Lord God ; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? [22] Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

    Again four. Some may say that is only for a season or time, but I could fill this thread with how many times : the sword, the famine, the noisome beast and the pestilence are mentioned throughout and consistently, unto Revelation. The purpose: to "cut off from it man and beast" from what? From God's kingdom. Jerusalem from above. Nothing enters that is defiled. No whore. No sin. No corruptions. No works of man and mans religion. There is only ONE way into the kingdom of God and it is through the work God provided which is the meat of HIMSELF. "To cut off from it man and beast" is also throughout His word consistently.

    Ezekiel 34:24-31
    [24] And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it . [25] And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. [26] And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. [27] And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord , when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. [28] And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. [29] And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. [30] Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God . [31] And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God .

    Colossians 1:15-18
    [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. [18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    The curse devoured the earth. to make desolate all that is apart from the glory of God.
    Isaiah 24:5-6
    [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
    Thrones cast down:
    Daniel 7:7-10
    [7] After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. [8] I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. [9] I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    Luke 22:27-30
    [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. [29] And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [30] That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Daniel 7:22-23
    [22] Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. [23] Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    God does it. Who is this passive God that just stands back and waits upon man? WE(man) wait upon the LORD. Not the other way around. I hear all the time that GOD gave us freewill because He doesn't want robots. The angels had freewill, obviously...some rebelled. Man wants the right to choose. Yes, freewill is way overrated. I would rather serve a God that accomplishes mighty wonderful things, way beyond mans control.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  5. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    VictoryinJesus:
    I cannot argue with points that would oppose your view. I agree with them. You have taken a different approach from the OT sources. It all supports that God waits on man to reach out to him first, then God will introduce himself in a 'meaningful' way to us, for eternity, and not just for a moment of mental exercise and intrigue that just bloats ones ego. God's plan is in motion whether we want to realize it or not.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  6. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I never said it is right, it is only my view. Distorted? Maybe. But what is the "trodden" of His for?

    In my own life the walls have fallen and the enemy has come in. God tells me it is for great purpose, and although it may be totally different then our defintion of love: HE gives us our enemies as an inheritance. Can the dog and beast be clean? Can they be brought in? Are they (the gentiles) not brought in by the troddening down of Israel. God gives His people their enemies gate. Are His people not trodden under foot of the gentiles for His glory? How can that be? Is it our will to be trodden under foot? It's not just the OT. His disciples were trodden under foot, seeming as a castaway ..but not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  7. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Can you choose God <---- OP

    The Short Answer is Yes.

    The WHY is a bit more complicated.

    Many are called by God.
    HOW a man is called IS;
    First because OF Gods Grace.

    The HOW is by God providing; (His Calling)
    His own works to been SEEN by men;
    ...(ie all the natural beauty of the earth)
    His own Word to be HEARD by men;
    His own Servants speaking, spreading, TV, Radio, printing and distributing His Word.
    His own Servants giving a call to an open invitation to come and Hear His Word.

    OF the MANY -
    Some choose/elect to Keep hearing and learning AND receiving Faith from God.

    OF the MANY -
    Some may listen for awhile, then choose/elect to depart, walk away, not believe, AND thus fall away, fall from receiving faith from God, jeopardize receiving Salvation.

    OF the MANY - The FEW WHO choose/elect to keep hearing and learning and believing....
    FOR their diligence to continue;
    Their measure of Faith (from God) is Increased ...

    The measure of Faith (from God) is feeding the thoughts of their Heart (not their mind).

    When their heart is prepared with having received Faith from God...
    They are prepared to CALL on the Lord and...
    Confess their faith, repent of their sins, Receive their Salvation, Receive a new heart, Receive the Seed of God (a rebirth of their spirit), Receive the Spirit of Gods Truth within them, and forever be Kept IN faithfulness to God only, BY His Power.

    There are two parties involved.
    God who Provides the Way, for all.
    God who KNOWS what a man shall choose.
    God who Provides His calling to Many.

    The Many who shall answer His calling.
    The Many who shall walk away and reject His calling.
    The Few who shall remain and become steeped in His Faith; and prepared to Call on the Lord, with their own SURE election of God.

    In short.
    Both God and Man elect the other.

    God elects Many whom He already knows shall be willing to answer His call and Hear.

    God elects Few whom He empowers to elect Him.....Because BEFORE they were empowered, THEY freely elected to hear, and continue to hear.

    IOW,
    God chooses men who WILL elect Him.
    Men freely choose to hear and continue, or not.
    Those who choose to continue, ARE electing God, and CAN elect God, because God is filling the mans Heart with Faith, that the man WILL elect to (heartfully) become Converted, and forever with the Lord.

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  8. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    While it is clear that the two cannot mix ( like oil and water ) we can certainly use them at different times.....Somewhere in one of the letters we are instructed to 'use the mind of the Spirit' instead of 'the mind of the flesh' indicating each human has both, which is why He had to die in order to make possible, what we are seeing today...Imperfect people being able to commune with God, which was not possible before Christ...Until we are completely changed, we do still carry the marks in our bodies ( the necessity of His death as we still are not perfect ) and until all is done, that mark will be present in us... :)
     
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  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but I couldn't sleep last night because this topic is not satisfied for me. Did Paul choose God, or did God choose Paul? To be instantly blinded is abrupt and against the will of man. To be walking one way and then God puts you on your rear-end, is no subtle invitation.

    Acts 15:14
    [14] Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    "to take out" sounds like it is God's choice.

    Job 34:24-25
    [24] He shall break in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead. [25] Therefore he knoweth their works, and he overturneth them in the night, so that they are destroyed.

    Psalm 2:8-9
    [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. [9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    Psalm 72:3-4
    [3] The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. [4] He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

    It matters to me because a person has to know: am I serving a false God? How well do you know God? Do you know Him, or more importantly...does God know you?

    If I don't speak, then there is no chance of correction from others of wrong thinking that doesn't align with scripture. APAK, how do you reconcile the God of the OT with the New? It is His work, but then it is not? I say: God is going to work until ALL is put under the submission of Christ, whether they approve or not. Every knee will bow. And I believe God can cause even the most rebellious to bow.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  10. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Taken: reading your post now 3x you are actually saying what I have said with a concentration in the area of believing or not believing in the gospel.... God ultimately chooses the elect. Even when you say that "men freely choose to hear or not...' is still keeping with what I have said. They will hear and believe if God placed it in their path beforehand to do so and believe. He has already seen it happen. He does not miss a target of opportunity if you will as we frequently do. He has already planned it that they will 'come. ' Those that do not continue after hearing the gospel God never wanted them to become the elect anyway, they heard at a time and place of their own choosing and not God's.
    Most people do that and God never prepared their heart as you say. He did not plan it.

    Bless you bro,

    APAK
     
  11. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    pia: I agree with you if you mean that our goal whilst on earth as believers is to rely more and more on the mind of the new spirit rather that the old outer mind that causes death. You never made that distinction or point. Yes, we cannot stop using our mind of the flesh as we still need to survive and live in this world. It is the earthly mind. It has unfortunately become corrupt and now cannot be reliable....that is our dilemma..

    Thanks for your input,

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i agree that "free will" is perhaps not the best way to describe "the knowledge of good and evil," and i guess Scripture does not even do this, does It. How did we get the term Free Will, i wonder? from nadab i guess? the verb, נדב, not the person; although the person illuminates the concept too prolly
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "
    נדב
    The graceful verb נדב (nadab) connotes "an uncompelled and free movement of the will unto divine service or sacrifice," according to HAW Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. It occurs in the Bible to indicate a volunteering for war (Judges 5:2) or other service (2 Chronicles 17:16), but most often for donating goods to the first and second temple (1 Chronicles 29:5, Ezra 1:4)." נדב | Abarim Publications Theological Dictionary (Old Testament Hebrew)

    Strong's Hebrew: 5068. נָדַב (nadab) -- to incite, impel

    Judges 5:2 Lexicon: "That the leaders led in Israel, That the people volunteered, Bless the LORD!
     
  14. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    This is where I go a tad bit further back and perhaps on a larger scale.

    Agree nothing is new under the sun.
    God knows all things (we don't).
    Not a "reincarnation" type of thing, but simply Gods Knowledge.

    Two parties are always involved..
    The Creator God and the Created man.
    Each MUST make an election of the other.
    Otherwise it is FORCED without choice.
    And thus you may wind up with a LOVELESS union.

    I believe, our election to choose God IS ALREADY KNOWN TO GOD, long before it is known to us.

    IOW - we have a choice. We "think" we are making it "NOW", in our present awareness.
    But IMO, it was a choice, God already knew we would make, but none the less, our choice.

    He - IMO, chooses those WHO CHOOSE Him, and makes them His Elect.

    Yes, He loved us first, and when in our own awareness (earthly existance) we discover we Love Him also.

    And NO DOUBT...He influences us while we are on their earth....in ways we sometimes do not notice and for others like a lightening bolt it hits a person. (Aka, Paul had an extreme jolt and others perhaps more subtle it hits them....that one is prepared in his own awareness to confess and declare their heartfelt belief.

    Agree. I always think of the panhandler on the corner, and have heard some say, ewee, what a slug, just wants beer money, no way.
    But then I think of "unawares", angels who can appear as men. I don't judge what a panhandler may do with a few dollars, or bottle of water, or hamburger or whatever.
    What I do notice is; is they are not politically correct; and always say; God Bless you!

    Agree.
    Everything is planned to the least detail.

    (Which is what I meant by "on a larger scale"; even the occupancy of this world, which has always been mans estate. I'm not saying 40 acres or saying people crammed in a city like maggots in a trash can, but rather;
    The seas/oceans will be gone, with just earth.
    And from beginning to ending of mankind; of who has lived / believed / become the elect;
    Are they who shall populate the entire earth.
    Calculated that! Lol.
    Just saying; for as many as have ever occupied the earth; about 1/3 shall remain as the elect, and occupy the entire globe, void of the oceans. For being a FEW...wow! )

    In the past and Today we have;
    Those who choose God.
    Those who rejected God.
    Those who haven't decided (and most often they fall into the category, of political & universal or philosophical Niceness is all that is necessary).

    God however has ONE strict rule.
    You are WITH HIM...or AGAINST HIM.
    That simple.

    And His calling is unique.
    All are called? No.
    Many are called? Yes.
    All are chosen? No.

    Many are called, answer, & walk away? Yes.
    Many are called, answer & FEW stay? Yes.
    The Few become Gods chosen, called:
    The Elect. Yes.

    God Blessing to you and yours,
    Taken
     
  15. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Freewill is term in Scripture.
    It is about Freely making an offering to the Lord.

    First is was freely offering and presenting animals flesh and blood unto the Lord.

    Now it is a man freely offering (called presenting) .. "his" whole body unto the Lord.
    Rom 12:1

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  16. Dcopymope

    Dcopymope Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]Sure, but I'm sure we all know that he chooses us first because man being carnally minded cannot just choose him. He chooses or "elects" those for salvation based on his foreknowledge of those he knows will choose him. This relationship goes both ways, and it start's with God.

     
  17. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Freewill is not overrated then. Here is a question and it is just a question: If a person believes works of the flesh no longer can please God (I say if because of the debates over works). This living sacrice to God for service, would it be free will of the flesh, or free will of the Spirit? How is man able to serve God, I guess is what I am asking? The question concerning "free will" pertains to Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Hebrews 10:16
    [16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    Romans 14:17-18
    [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

    Can: Righteousness, and peace, and joy come by the free will of the flesh?

    But then there is Galatians 2:20
    [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
     
  18. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

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    Spot on :)
     
  19. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well, i'd say it depends upon how one defines those terms, as you say a lot of ppl are confused about works, and don't believe that anything they can "physically" do might please God. And even if one does understand this, they might go all...Goldberg Mom or whatever, acting "from the flesh" by "helping" her children type stuff.

    So imo one's free will allows them to define all of these first, and then execute them second, and personally "from the flesh" does not mean "physical" to me, it means "having come from my physical desire." So to answer your Q i would say 'free will of the Spirit, worked by the flesh (even if the "work" is only a word or whatever)'
     
  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    which statement i guess makes it easy to misunderstand that sacrifices freely undertaken from the mind might be accomplished by the "flesh," ya.

    notice no 'heart' in there at all though
     
  21. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    not if "of the flesh" = "from my natural, self-centered desire" i guess
     
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