Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy

[bbyrd009]

"In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:
Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

In Catholic Christian Instructed,
Q. Has the [Catholic] church power to make any alterations in the commandments of God?
A. ...Instead of the seventh day, and other festivals appointed by the old law, the church has prescribed the Sundays and holy days to be set apart for God’s worship; and these we are now obliged to keep in consequence of God’s commandment, instead of the ancient Sabbath.
—The Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifices, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church By Way of Question and Answer, RT Rev. Dr. Challoner, p. 204.

In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,
Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.
–Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

In A Doctrinal Catechism... on and on, Catholic Church Admits They Made the Change | Sabbath Truth

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Of course Leviticus does not mention the day of the week to offer the wave sheaf. The fact that Yeshua rose on Abib 16

There you have it, from your own pen, the PROOF the First Sheaf Wave Offering happened on the Sabbath Day, not on the First Day of the week BECAUSE God gives for Reason that Israel had to keep the Sabbath, that He REDEEMED Israel out of Egypt up, out of the Red Sea. (Had God thus redeemed Israel on the First Day of the week, the Fourth Commandment would have read: Remember the First Day of the week to keep it holy.)

Now, given 'the fact (you supplied us with) that Yeshua rose on Abib 16' and Israel rose out of the Red Sea on Abib 16, the coincidence SHOWS FORTH that Jesus rose from the grave on the Sabbath Day.

But hang on for further implications as solid as a rock of ages!

Given 'the fact that Yeshua rose on Abib 16' the Sabbath the Seventh Day of the week, it follows the day before was the Preparation Friday on Abib 15, right? Right! And Abib 15 of course used to be the passover's 'Feast' and 'great day of Sabbath', right!

So everybody agrees.

But the passover lamb was KILLED on the fourteenth day of the month Abib! Which means Jesus was KILLED not on Friday but on Thursday the Fifth Day --Fifth Day of the week.

Now for the really exciting 'fact' which only much later developed in God's revelation of his Plan of Salvation:
First Sheaf of winter harvest Wave Offering involved all three INDISTINGUISHABLE days-of-darkness of the ninth and tenth plagues for the Egyptians; and all three INDISTINGUISHABLE days-of-light for the children of Israel.
Which is why you won't find the First Sheaf Wave Offering mentioned or as much as suggested in Exodus or in Joshua and the entrance under Joshua forty years after the exodus, but much later and only after institutionalisation had formally taken place AS IS OBVIOUS from Leviticus!

Which is exactly why the First Sheaf Wave Offering is MENTIONED in Leviticus as in Exodus with "the SELFSAME DAY" the description for the "THREE days thick darkness" --not indicated by days of the week, but-- indicated by DATE of the days of the MONTH and the SEASON of the YEAR, at first, "the fourteenth" for all three days!; Later on "the fourteenth", and, "the fifteenth", and, much, much later still, "the sixteenth", "day", "of the month", "the First Month", "YE", Israel, "shall proclaim : TO ITS SEASON".

We are not at 'the really exciting 'fact'', yet. Hang on for a while, please...

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

ah well as to that i guess the promoters of "Sunday" have some Scripture that they point to, Paul collecting money ("alms") for the Jerusalemites that tried the hippy commune thing in Acts, and failed when Jesus did not come back as they had imagined to rapture them or whatever?

Um, Marymog just quoted it recently; i recall alms in the passage. Not sure if there are any Witnesses/other vv that can be quoted for that or not tbh. Yes, i am aware that i am not providing the fodder you had hoped for here, that convo is back just a couple pages in this thread i guess

ah, i see you found them
imo let Mary believe that passing money to indigents is Holy, and let Sabbath keepers keep the Sabbath. Passing money is service, after all right; of a sort. Who objects to donations to the needy, even on the Sabbath?

imo "they worshipped on _______" (insert whatever day you like) is a fail anyway, but one day is better than no days i guess. sort of

'bbyrd009' stands for Richard Feignman, I suppose?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Yes. It's ceremonial, but it is a commandment.
Which is more important?

Beautiful, Thanks!

 

[bbyrd009]

'bbyrd009' stands for Richard Feignman, I suppose?

not really, i would say chiefly due to our differences in intent, i mean he obv ascribed to "more bombs for peace" etc
doesn't mean i am no less evil though, i guess

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus Christ abolished the Sabbath as all the "damning Law against us" having made "Sacrifice of Himself", being "nailed to the cross" and "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY". That's how Jesus abolished the Seventh Day Sabbath the "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" in fact. How was it possible? Well how do you think was it possible Jesus the Christ of God offered up and laid down his own Life?

The Law was not nailed to the cross. Yeshua was nailed to the cross with our sins upon him. The only thing taken out of the way was our debt of sin.

BUT, Jesus Christ BY having RAISED from the dead so that "God the Seventh Day RESTED", and "from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED", "MADE the Sabbath", made it "the Lord's Day" in which "THE LORD TRIUMPHED GLORIOUSLY, FOR THE LORD IS A MAN OF WAR", the Son of Man the Son of God "greatly to be exalted"; and... "the Lord's Day", to be invested with holiness and honour it BEFORE DID NOT HAVE.

I have yet to hear a clear statement from you concerning the Sabbath. Please answer this question; Are believers today supposed to obey the 7th day Sabbath commandment of the Ten Commandments? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[gadar perets]

It's a 'fact that Yeshua rose on Abib 16'. (It's good to hear it from you!)
But it's no more than your --faulty-- assumption and NO 'fact that Abib 16 was a Sunday'.

But I can understand why you believe what you believe. I also believed so until the TRANSLATORS themselves exposed their fraud to me. Yes, it was not I who was so intelligent, it was they who thought they are so intelligent. But they misreckoned people's ATTENTIVENESS and AWARENESS. I refer you to Mark 15:42. Please read the KJV, then NIV, and you will see what I mean.

No one should ever build doctrine on the NIV paraphrase.

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, KJV
Mark 15:42 It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, NIV
Mark 15:42 καὶ ἤδη ὀψίας γενομένης ἐπεὶ ἦν παρασκευή ὅ ἐστιν προσάββατον​

The Greek in bold reads, "And now evening come". The "evening" referred to is late afternoon, not evening after sunset. The Preparation Day was Abib 14, the day Yeshua died to fulfill the Passover Lamb. The weekly Sabbath was Abib 15 and Sunday was Abib 16.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Law was not nailed to the cross. Yeshua was nailed to the cross with our sins upon him. The only thing taken out of the way was our debt of sin.

"Having wiped out the handwriting against us He (at once) took it out of the way, (at once) having nailed it to the cross, (at once) having put off the rulers."
With "having wiped out, with having nailed it to the cross, with having put off the rulers, He took the handwriting out of the way". Only one Verb.
So, "13 By having forgiven you all trespasses 14 by having blotted the law-handwriting which was against us and opposed us out by having nailed it to the cross, Christ took it out of the way". "And TRIUMPHED IN IT!"

 

[gadar perets]

"Having wiped out the handwriting against us He (at once) took it out of the way, (at once) having nailed it to the cross, (at once) having put off the rulers."
With "having wiped out, with having nailed it to the cross, with having put off the rulers, He took the handwriting out of the way". Only one Verb.
So, "13 By having forgiven you all trespasses 14 by having blotted the law-handwriting which was against us and opposed us out by having nailed it to the cross, Christ took it out of the way". "And TRIUMPHED IN IT!"

Where do you come up with these absurd translations? Which translation did you just quote in verses 13-14?

The "handwriting" or, in Greek, the "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt. Whenever a man sins against YHWH his sin is imputed against him (Rom.4:7,8). When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of YHWH, as the Pharisees did, for example, they sin against YHWH. The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us. YHWH's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree. That is why Paul said the Colossians were "dead in your sins" in verse 13. The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them.

 

[mjrhealth]

So we don't have to keep the Sabbath holy?
You're one of those that says that Jesus did everything for us so we don't have to do anything?

So I could work and toil on the Sabbath? I could skip church with no worries?
I could treat it just like any other day? So I'm not to keep either Saturday or Sunday as a holy day unto the Lord?

Am I allowed to break the other commandments too, or just this one?

Yes. It's ceremonial, but it is a commandment.
Which is more important?

Nope because that was for teh Jews sorry Israelites, this bit

Exo_31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

We are not under that Covenant

and

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Those who are In Christ are doing just that, resting from there own works. which is what the sabbath is all about.

God bless

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

No one should ever build doctrine on the NIV paraphrase.

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, KJV
Mark 15:42 It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, NIV
Mark 15:42 καὶ ἤδη ὀψίας γενομένης ἐπεὶ ἦν παρασκευή ὅ ἐστιν προσάββατον​

The Greek in bold reads, "And now evening come". The "evening" referred to is late afternoon, not evening after sunset. The Preparation Day was Abib 14, the day Yeshua died to fulfill the Passover Lamb. The weekly Sabbath was Abib 15 and Sunday was Abib 16.

Re:
Q~Mark 15:42 καὶ ἤδη ὀψίας γενομένης ἐπεὶ ἦν παρασκευή ὅ ἐστιν προσάββατον
The Greek in bold reads, "And now evening come". The "evening" referred to is late afternoon, not evening after sunset.~Q

Mark 15:42 'καὶ ἤδη ὀψίας γενομένης' - 'γενομένης' Aorist Participle, translates, not, 'And now evening come', but, "And now when the even WAS come" Past Perfect.
Matthew 27:57 "When the even WAS come" - 'ὀψίας γενομένης'
So all translations until the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth centuries without exception.
The "evening" referred to is not 'late afternoon', but the "evening" after sunset. So fourteen times in the NT; so without exception in other sources.

"Evening having had come already" - 'ἤδη'. For what ἤδη if 'late afternoon'?!

But suppose it's 'late afternoon'. What hour is 'late afternoon'? Any hour from NOON! So when was the burial according to the Catholics and you FINISHED? BY 'late afternoon' on the very day that Jesus died "the ninth hour", 2 to 3 hours after 'late afternoon'.

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. It means the Jews went into Pilate's palace the same day which they just the morning would not enter because they wanted to still eat their passover ... THE NEXT DAY "evening having HAD COME"!

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. It means Joseph and Nicodemus were "At The First Night" of ulb in the 'late afternoon' before night had fallen!

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. Then the Jews had taken the body off the pole He ought to have hung on before the sunset, crucified, and should have be left hanging crucified on, but "not all night", but should have been taken off in, before sunrise and "the following daylight" had to have been "buried".

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. Then when did everybody LEAVE the cross and in panic fled the sight? And when did they come back? And everybody came back who was there at the Crucifixion and saw the burial et cetera?

And the best is, NO GOSPEL TELLS NO WORD...

What a tall story... But people to be saved, must become a Christian like us. Eish!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Conclusion:

No one should ever build doctrine on the NIV paraphrase.

That's what you have done.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Where do you come up with these absurd translations? Which translation did you just quote in verses 13-14?

The "handwriting" or, in Greek, the "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt. Whenever a man sins against YHWH his sin is imputed against him (Rom.4:7,8). When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of YHWH, as the Pharisees did, for example, they sin against YHWH. The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us. YHWH's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree. That is why Paul said the Colossians were "dead in your sins" in verse 13. The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them.

Calling the KJV and every respectable real English translation like that of Marshall, 'absurd translations?' And what would you have made of Participles supporting the Verb? No guess, what you did, make of them Indicative Verbs. That's not absurd; that's serious.

Your reasoning here do not look like they are 'the traditions of men over the commandments of YHWH'. I rather recognise them as the traditions of Seventh Day Adventism over the commandments of Yahweh.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I have yet to hear a clear statement from you concerning the Sabbath. Please answer this question; Are believers today supposed to obey the 7th day Sabbath commandment of the Ten Commandments? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Yes, for you, a 'simple yes or no will suffice'. First thing that bothers me with such a question is why must I give you a 'clear statement concerning the Sabbath' while the Bible is full of clear statements from God concerning the Sabbath?

Next. I think you should rather come to a clear differentiation between "the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD", and the '7th day Sabbath commandment of the Ten Commandments'. Once you have clarity on that, maybe I could give at least a clearer statement than the many I have submitted before everybody so far.

Nevertheless, I believe never to let an opportunity to witness pass. So many things concerning the Sabbath have through the years crystallised in my mind, it usually is impossible for me to confess which is most meaningful, to me at least.

But I think one thing contains as well as explains all things I believe concerning "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath", and that is that it "IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD", and if I received mercy which I believe I have received, to add, it will be that the Sabbath "is the Sabbath of the Lord, your - my -, God" Jesus Christ by the Power of his Resurrection ON IT.

 

[gadar perets]

Re:
Q~Mark 15:42 καὶ ἤδη ὀψίας γενομένης ἐπεὶ ἦν παρασκευή ὅ ἐστιν προσάββατον
The Greek in bold reads, "And now evening come". The "evening" referred to is late afternoon, not evening after sunset.~Q

Mark 15:42 'καὶ ἤδη ὀψίας γενομένης' - 'γενομένης' Aorist Participle, translates, not, 'And now evening come', but, "And now when the even WAS come" Past Perfect.
Matthew 27:57 "When the even WAS come" - 'ὀψίας γενομένης'
So all translations until the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth centuries without exception.
The "evening" referred to is not 'late afternoon', but the "evening" after sunset. So fourteen times in the NT; so without exception in other sources.

"Evening having had come already" - 'ἤδη'. For what ἤδη if 'late afternoon'?!

I totally agree the translation into understandable English is, "And now when the even was come." Why, then, did you direct me to the erroneous NIV which says, "So as evening approached"? When I wrote, "And now evening come", I was only giving a one word translation of each Greek word.

But suppose it's 'late afternoon'. What hour is 'late afternoon'? Any hour from NOON! So when was the burial according to the Catholics and you FINISHED? BY 'late afternoon' on the very day that Jesus died "the ninth hour", 2 to 3 hours after 'late afternoon'.

Correct. That would be the afternoon of Abib 14 before the sun set beginning the 15th.

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. It means the Jews went into Pilate's palace the same day which they just the morning would not enter because they wanted to still eat their passover ... THE NEXT DAY "evening having HAD COME"!

The Jews ate the Passover on the night of Abib 15.

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. It means Joseph and Nicodemus were "At The First Night" of ulb in the 'late afternoon' before night had fallen!

?? John 19:38-42 takes place between 3:00 and sunset on the preparation day.

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,​

Where do you find, "At the first night"?

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. Then the Jews had taken the body off the pole before the sunset He ought to have hung on, crucified, and should be left hanging crucified but "not all night", but should have been taken off before sunrise and "the following daylight be buried".

His body needed to be buried the same day he was nailed to the tree (Deuteronomy 21:22-23).

Suppose it's 'late afternoon'. Then when did everybody LEAVE the cross and in panic fled the sight? And when did they come back? And everybody came back who was there at the Crucifixion and saw the burial et cetera?

That depends on which verses you are referring to.

And the best is, NO GOSPEL TELLS NO WORD...

What a tall story... But people to be saved, must become a Christian like us. Eish!

You think it is a tall story because you totally misunderstand that there is an evening before the sun sets. Also, one does not need to become a Christian to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith in Messiah Yeshua.

 

[gadar perets]

Conclusion:


That's what you have done.

I came against the NIV which you directed me to in support of your false teaching.

 

[gadar perets]

Calling the KJV and every respectable real English translation like that of Marshall, 'absurd translations?' And what would you have made of Participles supporting the Verb? No guess, what you did, make of them Indicative Verbs. That's not absurd; that's serious.

I know of no translation that says, "14 by having blotted the law-handwriting which was against us ..." The KJV certainly does not say that.

Your reasoning here do not look like they are 'the traditions of men over the commandments of YHWH'. I rather recognise them as the traditions of Seventh Day Adventism over the commandments of Yahweh.

I am not an SDA, nor do I exalt tradition over the commandments.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes, for you, a 'simple yes or no will suffice'. First thing that bothers me with such a question is why must I give you a 'clear statement concerning the Sabbath' while the Bible is full of clear statements from God concerning the Sabbath?

I know the Bible is full of them. What I don't know is your belief concerning them.

Next. I think you should rather come to a clear differentiation between "the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD", and the '7th day Sabbath commandment of the Ten Commandments'. Once you have clarity on that, maybe I could give at least a clearer statement than the many I have submitted before everybody so far.

Where do I find that "clear differentiation" in Scripture? I see one "Seventh Day Sabbath" in Scripture. Yeshua kept that day as per the 4th of the Ten Commandments. He is our example. Therefore, I endeavor to keep that day holy as commanded by YHWH.

But I think one thing contains as well as explains all things I believe concerning "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath", and that is that it "IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD", and if I received mercy which I believe I have received, to add, it will be that the Sabbath "is the Sabbath of the Lord, your - my -, God" Jesus Christ by the Power of his Resurrection ON IT.

"THE SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD" or more correctly, "The Sabbath of YHWH Elohim" is the 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment. There is NO difference.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I know of no translation that says, "14 by having blotted the law-handwriting which was against us ..." The KJV certainly does not say that.

Whether it is a camel or a rope that must go through the needle's hole it's the same impossibility. But no, it is no impossibility here. It is as plain in English as in any language, "the subpoena against..." / "the warrant for our arrest..." / "the handwritten legal (one) document with its (numerous) stipulations / ordinances / accusations against us", whichever, even 'the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence' it's all the same its' all one thing, the Law! God's Law - God's Written Law-of-Word; but MORE, ultimately and in the last analysis and in truth and in reality it was God's LIVING WORD JESUS CHRIST THE CRUCIFIED THE RAISED FROM THE DEAD! The Giant Able to Pass Through the Needle's Gate and break the bondage of sin and death and grave who "in it Triumphed!" "Triumphed over ALL powers and or authorities and or principalities" of angels and or devils and or men and or popes and holy seas, and or Scripture fraudsters.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I am not an SDA, nor do I exalt tradition over the commandments.

Be that as it may, SDA say exactly what you are arguing. And I'm not very sure, but almost dead sure they coined the arguments and catch-phrases which you are using like 'the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence', the late Professor Samuele Bacchiocchi having been the SDAs ablest proponent of such escape techniques.
No one can get away from it, it is the Ten Commandments with its Fourth Commandment meant and included in Colossians 2:14, you can tell me what you want.