Are you catholic?

[epostle1]

You haven't been paying attention.
It is not one statement, but a culmination of many things.

You don't need to honor your parents so you turned your back on Jesus in the Eucharist?
Was it because it was easier to make friends in a Protestant church?
If you say you didn't agree with the Church's doctrines, how can that be when thousands of Protestant ministers and Bible scholars are converting to the Church?

Catholic Conversion Stories - The Coming Home Network

Bowing to statues? That has been beaten to death.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Differences between being well taught in what one believes and indoctrination of what other men believe.
Prayer Beads...
Matt 6:7
...when ye pray: use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do...

I LOVE it when ignorant people misinterpret Jesus by pushing their the "Vain Repetitious Prayer" manure.
Time for a little BIBLE lesson . . .

What YOU fail to understand is that when Jesus made this statement in Matt. 6:7, he was speaking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans to their gods – not the sincere prayers of the faithful. We read about them in 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name and performing ritual dances.

- In Matt. 26:44, our Lord himself prayed the exact same prayer THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

- In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:-87, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: “Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”

- In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and repeating, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.”
This was pleasing to God.

We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the SAME prayer day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

- Psalm 136 goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the exact same prayer, “God's love endures forever”.

- Similarly, in Dan. 3:56-88 we read the exact same prayer for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” This is FAR more repetitious than a decade of the Rosary.

ALL of this BIBLICAL evidence shows that repetitious prayer is pleasing to God.
Don't just quote Scripture. LEARN what it means . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You haven't been paying attention.
It is not one statement, but a culmination of many things.

I agree - it was a culmination of MANY ignorant ideas. I said that his statement was at the HEART of his ignorance.
I didn't say that it was the ONLY ignorant thing he said . . .

 

[Taken]

You don't need to honor your parents so you turned your back on Jesus in the Eucharist?
Was it because it was easier to make friends in a Protestant church?
If you say you didn't agree with the Church's doctrines, how can that be when thousands of Protestant ministers and Bible scholars are converting to the Church?

You don't...?
You turned..?
You say..?

Uh...I didn't!

Bowing to statues? That has been beaten to death.

And still the statues are.
And the bowing continues.

 

[Taken]

I LOVE it when ignorant people misinterpret Jesus by pushing their the "Vain Repetitious Prayer" manure.
Time for a little BIBLE lesson . . .

"THEIR" vain repetitious prayer manure?

No.
It's the "vain repetition" of the one doing it, and TO whom.

Repeating over and over is "IN VAIN" to something other than the Thee God Almighty

And Thee God Almighty HEARS your petition FOR something the FIRST TIME!

And Exalting Thee God, is not ASKING Thee God for anything.

What YOU fail to understand is that when Jesus made this statement in Matt. 6:7, he was speaking about the nonsensical babbling of pagans to their gods

"To" their gods"....

– not the sincere prayers of the faithful.

Matt 6:7
..When ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions..

Luke 11:2
..When ye pray, say Our Father...

We read about them in 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name....

Rosary....59 Beads
6 beads, "REPEAT", 6 TIMES Our Father.
53 beads, "REPEAT", 53 TIMES Mary.

Jesus ~ pray Our Father once.
Jesus ~ Mary, none.

- In Matt. 26:44, our Lord himself prayed the exact same prayer THREE times in the Garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper.

From: Our Lord, Our God, His Spirit
To: His Father in Heaven.

- In the Parable of the Determined Widow in Luke 18:-87, Jesus emphatically states that God hears those who keep petitioning him in sincere faith: “Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily.”

God hears.
Mary, not mentioned.

- In Luke 18:13, the tax collector kept beating his breast and repeating, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.”
This was pleasing to God.

Imploring God's mercy.
Mary, not mentioned.

We see in Rev. 4:8 that the angels pray the SAME prayer day and night without ceasing in the presence of almighty God, “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”

Holy Lord exalted
Holy God exalted
Holy Almighty exalted

Mary? Not mentioned.

- Psalm 136

goes on for 26 verses in a row, repeating the exact same prayer, “God's love endures forever”.

Statement; God's love forever.
Mary? Not mentioned.

- Similarly, in Dan. 3:56-88 we read the exact same prayer for 32 verses, which is “bless the Lord; praise and exalt him above all forever.” This is FAR more repetitious than a decade of the Rosary.

Teaching HOW TO exalt the Lord, is not a prayer. It's teaching.
Mary? Not mentioned.

ALL

of this BIBLICAL evidence shows that repetitious prayer is pleasing to God.

WHEN ye pray, use not vain repetitions.
WHEN ye pray, say Our Father...

Don't just quote Scripture. LEARN what it means . . .

Catholic Rosary prayer beads...

Our Father, Our Father, Our Father,
Our Father, Our Father, Our Father...

Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary,
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary

Scripture teaches HOW TO pray.
Catholics teach WHAT TO pray.

And not everyone agrees with Catholic teaching.

You can defend Catholic teaching, but it does not make you right and everyone else wrong as you like to pretend.

 

[Taken]

I agree - it was a culmination of MANY ignorant ideas. I said that his statement was at the HEART of his ignorance.
I didn't say that it was the ONLY ignorant thing he said . . .

You seem as though you have discovered a new revelation.....maybe new to you...but not to all.

He was speaking of a childs, a babes, experience. I guess only in your world, children and babes are full of knowledge and wise! Ha!

People grow, learn, mature.... You imply he left Faith. You ignored his growING, and is here EXALTING the Lord, according TO the Lords Way, rather than according TO what Catholics teach is Their Way.

Don't be mad. Some people favor the Lords WAY over and above the Catholic WAY.

 

[epostle1]

You don't...?
You turned..?
You say..?

Uh...I didn't!

How does that answer my questions? Which parent did you dishonor the most? The one who struggled the hardest to nurture your faith? Were they less than perfect so you rebelled?

And still the statues are.

We don't worship statues and you are bearing false witness with such lies.

And the bowing continues.

It's not our fault you refuse explanations that not all bowing is worship. It's not our fault you deny the Scriptures.

 

[epostle1]

"THEIR" vain repetitious prayer manure?

No.
It's the "vain repetition" of the one doing it, and TO whom.

Repeating over and over is "IN VAIN" to something other than the Thee God Almighty

And Thee God Almighty HEARS your petition FOR something the FIRST TIME!

And Exalting Thee God, is not ASKING Thee God for anything.

"To" their gods"....

Matt 6:7
..When ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions..

Luke 11:2
..When ye pray, say Our Father...
Rosary....59 Beads
6 beads, "REPEAT", 6 TIMES Our Father.
53 beads, "REPEAT", 53 TIMES Mary.

Jesus ~ pray Our Father once.
Jesus ~ Mary, none.
From: Our Lord, Our God, His Spirit
To: His Father in Heaven.
God hears.
Mary, not mentioned.
Imploring God's mercy.
Mary, not mentioned.
Holy Lord exalted
Holy God exalted
Holy Almighty exalted

Mary? Not mentioned.
Statement; God's love forever.
Mary? Not mentioned.
Teaching HOW TO exalt the Lord, is not a prayer. It's teaching.
Mary? Not mentioned.
WHEN ye pray, use not vain repetitions.
WHEN ye pray, say Our Father...
Catholic Rosary prayer beads...

Our Father, Our Father, Our Father,
Our Father, Our Father, Our Father...

Scripture teaches HOW TO pray.
Catholics teach WHAT TO pray.
And not everyone agrees with Catholic teaching.

You can defend Catholic teaching, but it does not make you right and everyone else wrong as you like to pretend.

Jesus did not condemn repetition, He condemned VANITY, such as the VANITY of your stupid attacks. Nobody ever said we are always right and everyone else is wrong. You are speaking from an inferiority complex viewpoint, which is your problem, not ours.
Mariology developed over time, just as the canon of Scripture developed over 350 years. It's too bad that bible cults such as yours have no concept of development, so you invent Bible origin fantasies of your own.
Your mockery shows just how ignorant and immature you are.
I don't mind putting another Christian Taliban in my ignore bin. Just start behaving like a Christian is supposed to, not another forum terrorist.

 

[epostle1]

The rationale for devotion to Mary, and devotion means honoring her and seeking her intercession, is simple and forceful. Mary's primary role in the divine scheme of salvation revealed in Scripture is to lead all her children to her Son. Taken doesn't get it.

The Genesis 3:15 prophecy of the Woman and her seed in battle with the Devil reaches its climax in Revelation 12 where the Woman's seed now includes not just the Son but also all His followers.

The author of Revelation had already laid the groundwork for this startling image with John 19 in which the "beloved disciple" (symbolizing all believers) is given the Woman as his Mother by her Son. In Marian devotion and in Marian appearances throughout history and throughout the world we see this Scriptural portrait come to life with the Mother of all believers leading them to salvation in her Son.

She is not the Savior and she is not the source of salvation but she leads us to the Savior and to salvation. This is the mission assigned to her by God that we see in Scripture. The fundamental theme of Marian devotion is of going "to Jesus through Mary".

The choice we face is not: "Do I surrender to God directly or do I go through Mary to God?" Rather, the choice we face is this: "Do I surrender to God through the instrumentality He has set up, i.e., through Mary, or do I surrender to God through the instrumentality I set up, i.e., without going through Mary?

The choice is: "Do I go to God on His terms or on mine?" The choice is not: "Do I want to follow Jesus or Mary?" but "Do I want to follow Jesus (by going to Him through Mary)?"

It is a hard fact of history that devotion to Mary has been a fundamental part of the historic Faith for 20 centuries. The Sub Tuum prayer dating back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries establishes this to be the case along with numerous other pieces of evidence.

Any criticism of Marian devotion must overcome this "hard fact". Also Marian devotion has always been directly related to the centrality of Christ and has been the surest protector of sound Christology.

Marian devotion stems from the surest sources: the witness of Scripture; the inerrant interpretation of Scripture handed down by Councils, Creeds and the Fathers; the universal and ancient practice among Christians of venerating Mary and seeking her intercession in line with scriptural teaching; the Marian experience of the faithful; and the appearances of Mary throughout history in the most diverse cultures that have resulted in mass conversions and the renewal of Christian life.

It may be argued that Christians were in error on this matter from the beginning but in response we will have to ask who has the authority or competence to make such an arbitrary interpretation.

Should we trust the interpretations of Augustine or Jimmy Swaggart, the teachings of the Council of Ephesus or the pronouncements of Dave Hunt? Should we be guided by the prayer and worship practices of Christians in the first three centuries who were the closest to the New Testament Church or the prayer-and-worship routines of 25,000+ denominations?

The "world" of Marian devotion is one which has been familiar to almost all Christians, including the holiest and the wisest, for the last 20 centuries. The Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have not entered this world. Neither have Mormons or Buddhists.

Before they criticize or reject a part of Christian experience that has been accepted as basic and normal by most Christians, 20th century Christians should consider understanding or even better entering it.

Three aspects of Marian devotion are vital here.

(i) The basic objective of Marian devotion is growth in sanctification on our path to salvation. From Mary came Jesus Who brought salvation to the world. Through Mary came the first of Jesus' miracles wrought at her request and bringing faith to the disciples.

Now Mary comes to us from Jesus Who gives her to us as our Mother. Her children, we are told by Scripture, are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Her God-given mission is to help us in keeping the "commandments", in battling the world, the flesh and the devil.

Those who believe, like Luther, that the Christian can "be a sinner, and sin boldly" and "even commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" may decide that we do not need assistance in resisting the world, the flesh and the Devil since our salvation is "assured" regardless of our future choices and actions.

But this is a perilous decision. It ignores the dire warnings of Paul and James and Our Lord's own admonition: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

We have seen that Hebrews 10:26 warns us, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries."

If we take these warnings seriously we will gladly accept the assistance of the maternal love that has been experienced by millions of Christians.

(ii) Secondly, Marian devotion can only be comprehended in relation to the Christian belief in the "communion of saints", an article of faith preserved even in the Apostles' Creed.

According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, "For many centuries believers have affirmed in the Apostles' Creed their faith in ‘the communion of saints.’ ... This affirmation of belief has been interpreted in various ways.

The traditional, and probably the best interpretation refers the phrase to the union of all believers, living or dead, in Christ, stressing their common life in Christ and their sharing of all the blessings of God."1

The communion of saints is clearly a scriptural teaching that is emphasized in the New Testament references to the cloud of unseen witnesses and the mystical Body of Christ ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"). Among Protestants, Methodists have shown a lively awareness of the close relation between the communion of saints and a scriptural faith.

According to John De Satge: "The solidarity of which Christians find themselves members is therefore one into whose ongoing life they are caught up so as to be penetrated by it, and ultimately transformed. It is a solidarity which stretches back at least as far as the call of Abraham. ... It is a solidarity ... which implies resurrection of its members, to whom death has become incidental to their ultimate destiny."2

Once we have understood the historic affirmation of the communion of saints, an affirmation that has dropped out of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical theological systems, we are in a better position to understand the role of Mary.

(iii) Finally we must ask ourselves how we would respond if we were given the opportunity to spend a day with Mary. Would we ask her questions about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Would we ask her how we can grow closer to God and learn to obey Him better?

Would we seek her guidance in fighting the Dragon? Even suspicious Fundamentalists would find it hard not to ask these questions to the Mother of their Savior - the one so favored by God the Father as the Angel Gabriel tells us - if given the opportunity.

Marian devotion springs from the realization through Scripture and universal experience that the Mother of Jesus will be with us every day of our lives guiding us to her Son and away from her adversary. Her Son has given her to us as our Mother (John 19, Revelation 12). Dare we refuse His gift?

She is the mother God has given us. If we say we do not need a mother, then we are presuming to question the wisdom of God's provision for our needs.

The awareness of Mary's intercessory and maternal presence was a secure part of Christian experience from the beginning. Several exegetes have been quoted on this (McHugh, Breck, Miguens).

The clearest line of separation between Fundamentalism and historic Christianity, when it comes to devotion to Mary, is the differing perspectives on the dictum "to Jesus through Mary."

Historic Christianity has never seen Mary in isolation from Jesus and has viewed Marian doctrine and devotion as the safest, surest and swiftest path to a true and lasting commitment to Christ. Fundamentalists claim that they "do not need Mary" to go to Jesus and that they prefer to go directly to Jesus.

 

[epostle1]

This response is a misunderstanding of the traditional teaching. All Christians can and should pray directly to Jesus. But no one actually "goes" to Jesus "alone". We all carry with us some mediating group or individual when we go to Jesus.

Fundamentalists approach him with a Calvinist picture of a god who has predestined the majority of mankind to damnation or with a Dispensationalist picture of a god who operates through various covenants and dispensations established with Israel and the church.

Faith movement Charismatics have their own health-and-wealth conception of god. Nobody goes to Jesus "alone". We go with various pictures of God and salvation. If we go to Jesus through Mary we go with the right picture, the historic picture, the God-given picture.

When we talk about going "to Jesus through Mary" we are not suggesting that Mary's function is to "introduce" us to Jesus. We are talking about growing deeper in our life in Jesus with and through Mary's assistance.

With Mary as our model, teacher and guide we become the kind of Christian God wants us to be. With and through Mary we become more and more like Jesus. Thus "through Mary" does not mean that she functions as a door-opening "go-between".

In actuality, it means that she is acting as our Mother trying to make us more like her divine Son. We are simply doing what Jesus commanded in John 19 and what the book of Revelation teaches when it says that those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are "her seed." (Revelation 12:17).

To go to Jesus through Mary is to have a maternal companion at your side given to you by Jesus to help you follow His commandments and stay faithful to Him. We may ask why we need this companion when Jesus can do this for us just as well. This is like asking why God has given us guardian angels when we could go directly to God for all our needs.

The question is: how does God want things to work? Does He want us to work with our guardian angels, does He want our angels to protect us? If the answer is yes, as Scripture tells us, our conceptions of what is or is not "appropriate" are irrelevant. Similarly if God ordains Mary to be our Mother and guide - as Scripture and the historic Faith affirm - then that is what is best for us.

In practice the Fundamentalist does not go to Jesus "alone". He is nurtured by his minister, his Bible teacher, his church and other such "support groups" in forming his understanding of Jesus and then "goes" to Jesus on the basis of the training and guidance he gets from these groups, often with the groups or individuals actually praying with him and guiding him.

To go to Jesus through Mary is simply to embrace another "support" or "fellowship" group in our journey - one whose role in this regard has been biblically mandated. True, we cannot see Mary. But we cannot see our guardian angels either - and we are perfectly justified in seeking their help.

To put it another way, a father who helps his son learn to pray, corrects his misconceptions about God, teaches him the Bible, and directs him in leading a Christian life is not "supplanting" Jesus or acting as an obstacle between his son and Jesus. He is helping his son establish a full and lasting commitment to his Savior.

Of course the son could try to "go" to Jesus alone - but how much easier and how much safer it is to have the guidance of someone who is an experienced Christian and who loves him with a father's tenderness. This is all that is involved in going to Jesus through Mary. "Do whatever he tells you" is her constant encouragement.

"To Jesus through Mary": according to the historic Faith this is the path to salvation ordained by the Trinity. "To Jesus through Calvinism, Dispensationalism, the Faith Movement, etc.": this is the path to salvation taught by Fundamentalism.

The historic Faith is authoritative simply because it originates from the apostolic community. It is also more true to our experience. No one came to Jesus alone.

Apostles, missionaries, preachers, theologians, writers, parents, and the Church brought us to Jesus. God could have chosen to act directly but he did not. He chose to act through human beings. These human beings were pathways to Him not obstacles. So it is with Mary.

Now it may be said that Mary is just another human being and so it would be wrong to put our trust in her or to rely on her to come to Jesus. Here we must not forget that all the individuals and institutions that brought us and bring us to Jesus are human as well.

Both the Israelites and the early Christians honored the "holy ones" of their time and tried to be guided by them. When you became a follower of a "holy one" like an Old Testament Prophet or John the Baptist you focus not on him but on Whom they point to: GOD.

The "holy one" protects and guides his followers in their spiritual journey and provides them companionship sharing the benefits of his greater experience. We are fellow creatures on the same journey to God. Some of our fellows are more advanced than others and we may need their help in overcoming the hurdles we face in our spiritual life.

This is a simple fact of human experience, one which has been experienced also by Christians at all times.

When we take Mary for our companion and guide we are choosing a fellow creature but one who is the Mother of God, untainted by Original Sin, the Woman clothed with the Heavenly Sun, the Spouse of the Spirit through whom we receive the grace won by her Son.

She is a fitting leader of humanity because she is the only human person who did not give in to the greatest Adversary of God ("our tainted race's solitary boast" said the poet William Wordsworth). She is the Mother of Jesus and the one who has been instituted as our Mother by her Creator.

Devotion to Mary is almost instinctive for a Christian. The first generation of believers who reflected on the Christian revelation inevitably saw the link between Mother and Son, the New Eve and the New Adam. This is the origin of the "To Jesus through Mary" path.

To reject this great scriptural insight is really a kind of regress, a fall from grace.

The main obstacle to Marian devotion for some Fundamentalists is the fear that somehow their conscious prayer life will be "cluttered up" or confused. How can we integrate devotion to Mary with prayers to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit?

This apparent difficulty was not a problem to the greatest pray-ers of Christendom. For the great "prayer warriors" we call the saints, Marian devotion was a pathway to a rich and robust prayer life in which God was all-encompassing.

In praying to Mary we must come back again to the point that there is no "competition" between devotion to Jesus and to Mary. Once we realize that she is our Mother, a Mother who leads us to God, to the Holy Trinity, we realize that devotion is a matter of understanding relationships.

When we realize that God is infinite love, we see this love expressed as a human Mother in Mary. All human beings long for the love of a mother and God Who has implanted this yearning in us gives us a Mother in Mary.

We have a relationship with her on one level as mother and on another level we have a relationship with the Trinity, with God. She is the Mother who draws us closer to the God to Whom she is so intimately united.

Does a focus on Mary and the saints take us away from attention to God? The answer to this question is a question: Does attention to our closest friends and family in this world take us away from God?

In both instances we see the love of God expressed through these other human persons. They enable us to appreciate His glory in newer and fuller ways. At the same time we should and can pray to Him without restraint.

If there is any confusion in prayer life and devotion we find it with the Fundamentalists. In real life they find it hard to focus on more than One of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

That is why some focus on the Father, others on the Son and a third group just on the Spirit. Marian devotion, on the other hand, will clarify the distinctions within the Trinity while leading us to a real relationship with each of the Three Persons.

The infinite love of God is central to our Christian experience. In embracing Mary as Mother we enter more fully into this great Love. She loves us like she loves Jesus and we should love her like Jesus loves her.

All that we have said here helps us know about Mary. But knowing about Mary is simply a stepping-stone to knowing Mary. And knowing Mary is immeasurably more important than knowing about Mary since she takes us right to Jesus.

Our fellow pilgrims can help us in knowing about Mary. But only we can know Mary. So it is time to take the plunge. The Consecration to Jesus Through Mary is the gateway to a personal relationship with Mary that deepens and consolidates our relationship with Jesus.

(not available on line)

 

[Taken]

How does that answer my questions?

Because your questions had no revelance to me.

Which parent did you dishonor the most?

Which parent did you dishonor the most?

We don't worship statues and you are bearing false witness with such lies.

You don't worship statues?
Uh...that's nice. However you forgot to quote me saying you did.

It's not our fault you refuse explanations that not all bowing is worship.

Sure it is your fault, when you claim something FOR ME, I did not claim.

It's not our fault you deny the Scriptures.

Of course it is your fault, when you claim something FOR ME, I did not claim.

So, since you have all the answers and Scriptural explanations ...

A simple yes or no, and Scriptural reference will suffice.

Is your Mary, Mother of God?
Is your Mary, Queen of Heaven?
Is your Mary, Thee Holy Queen?
Was your Mary, naturally born without sin?

 

[Taken]

The rationale for devotion to Mary, and devotion means honoring her and seeking her intercession, is simple and forceful.

"Her intercession" ?
"She is your intercessor, your advocate, your mediator, your middle man, between you and God?

Scripture?

Mary's primary role in the divine scheme of salvation revealed in Scripture is to lead all her children to her Son. Taken doesn't get it.

Her Children? Sure, why would she not lead "her children" to her Son?

I get it. However I fail to see Mary being the mother of every child ever born.

Scripture?

The choice we face is not: "Do I surrender to God directly or do I go through Mary to God?" Rather, the choice we face is this: "Do I surrender to God through the instrumentality He has set up, i.e., through Mary, or do I surrender to God through the instrumentality I set up, i.e., without going through Mary?

Scripture? Mary is the whom one goes through?

It is a hard fact of history that devotion to Mary has been a fundamental part of the historic Faith for 20 centuries. The Sub Tuum prayer dating back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries establishes this to be the case along with numerous other pieces of evidence.

Quite astounding....what the Church has taught, when men could not read.

But now that men CAN READ...

Where is the Scripture to support, GO THROUGH MARY?

and the appearances of Mary throughout history ...

Where in Scripture is such a tale foretold or prophesied such an appearance of Mary shall ocurr?

Should we trust the interpretations of Augustine or Jimmy Swaggart, the teachings of the Council of Ephesus or the pronouncements of Dave Hunt?

Scripture says to TRUST God.
Where does God say...Mary is a mans intercessory TO Him?

Should we be guided by the prayer and worship practices of Christians in the first three centuries who were the closest to the New Testament Church or the prayer-and-worship routines of 25,000+ denominations?

Jesus taught the lesson...Christians can mimic HIM, or make up their own rituals and requirements.

Jesus IS the intercessory, between an unsaved man and God.

A man WHO goes THROUGH Christ Jesus, becomes saved...AND
Has DIRECTLY met God and has DIRECT access TO God.

Was a mystery...Jesus revealed...No longer a mystery!

The "world" of Marian devotion is one which has been familiar to almost all Christians, including the holiest and the wisest, for the last 20 centuries. The Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have not entered this world. Neither have Mormons or Buddhists.

Wow..."Going THROUGH Mary is the KEY.."

Odd how the Scriptures FORGOT to Mention going THROUGH Mary....
and INSTEAD said to go THROUGH Jesus.

Before they criticize or reject a part of Christian experience that has been accepted as basic and normal by most Christians, 20th century Christians should consider understanding or even better entering it.

One does NOT have to ENTER HELL, to know it was never taught in Scripture as the place one, should desire to enter.

Three aspects of Marian devotion are vital here.

(i) The basic objective of Marian devotion is growth in sanctification on our path to salvation. From Mary came Jesus Who brought salvation to the world. Through Mary came the first of Jesus' miracles wrought at her request and bringing faith to the disciples.

Do you comprehend THROUGH?
Jesus turned water into wine...THROUGH Mary's power? Yipes!

Now Mary comes to us from Jesus Who gives her to us as our Mother.

Huh? Scripture? Jesus gives "her to us as; "our Mother"?

Her children, we are told by Scripture, are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

What Scripture says "Her children" ?

Her God-given mission

Scripture of "her" God-given mission?

Those who believe, like Luther, that the Christian can "be a sinner, and sin boldly" and "even commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" may decide that we do not need assistance in resisting the world, the flesh and the Devil since our salvation is "assured" regardless of our future choices and actions.

Bold sin, secret sin....irrelevant.
Do you claim to Have been born again, have the indwelling Spirit of God within you....AND STILL COMMIT SIN?
If so, what IS THE POWER of the Holy Spirit of God doing, dwelling in you, while you are committing sin, superseding HIS POWER, and making His SPIRIT, DWELL IN YOUR SIN?

Where does Scripture teach you God DWELLS IN SIN?

But this is a perilous decision. It ignores the dire warnings of Paul and James and Our Lord's own admonition: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

Is it the WILL OF THE Father, that you teach the Spirit of God Dwells in Sin?

We have seen that Hebrews 10:26 warns us, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries."

Receiving Knowledge of the Truth...and?
Lots of people receive Knowledge of the Truth....and?
Of course they can still SIN...
The WARNING IS...DO SOMETHING WITH THE KNOWLEDGE...
Receiving Knowledge is NOT receiving Salvation!
Nor is it receiving a Born again spirit!
Get to getting...make a choice...
RECEIVE Forgiveness
RECEIVE Salvation
RECEIVE Gods Seed
RECEIVE the Freedom FROM SIN!
RECEIVE the indwelling Spirit of God...
(Whom by the way DOES NOT DWELL IN SIN)

The traditional, and probably the best interpretation refers the phrase to the union of all believers, living or dead, in Christ, stressing their common life in Christ and their sharing of all the blessings of God."1

IN Christ! Yes.
Not through or in Mary,
Not IN SIN!

Once we have understood the historic affirmation of the communion of saints, an affirmation that has dropped out of the Fundamentalist and Evangelical theological systems, we are in a better position to understand the role of Mary.

Mary "had" ONE exclusive role....and she fulfilled and accomplished it over 2,000 years ago.

Matt 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven...........
The SAME IS:
My brother, and sister, and mother.

(iii) Finally we must ask ourselves how we would respond if we were given the opportunity to spend a day with Mary. Would we ask her questions about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Would we ask her how we can grow closer to God and learn to obey Him better?

Huh? We "must" ask how we would spend the day with a dead woman? Weird.

Would we seek her guidance in fighting the Dragon?

Her guidance?
Scripture?

Her Son has given her to us as our Mother (John 19, Revelation 12). Dare we refuse His gift?

Refuse? Scripture? Where Jesus gave Mary to us as our "Mother".

She is the mother God has given us. If we say we do not need a mother, then we are presuming to question the wisdom of God's provision for our needs.

You continue repeating..Mary was "given to us, as a Mother".....but not once, does Scripture itself make such a claim.

The awareness of Mary's intercessory

You continue repeating...Mary the intercessory.....but not once, does Scripture itself make such a claim

Historic Christianity has never seen Mary in isolation from Jesus

Huh? Sure it does.
Mary was a natural earthly born person.
All natural earthly born persons, are born in sin.
IN sin, IS separation from God.

Fundamentalists claim that they "do not need Mary" to go to Jesus and that they prefer to go directly to Jesus.

Well no kidding.
1 Time 2:5
There is ONE God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

No mention of Mary, or saints, or anyone else.

 

[APAK]

@epostle1 ..I just wanted to point out that your use of Rev 12:17 for the actual Mary. is most probably out of place.

Rev 12:17 is not about the actual person called Mary, with Joseph. It is a symbolic representation of the new Judean Christians of Israel stock. They were the ‘seed’ and primer for the growth of Christianity throughout the world. They fled to the wilderness (Rev 12:14) before the Roman Armies trampled Jerusalem under foot 66-70 AD.

These new Christians increased in size (offspring of her seed). They continued and kept themselves in the ‘wilderness’ being separate and apart from the political-religious power centers, even today.

Despite their wish to live in peace, they have always been chased or hunted down by the evil of this world with its religious centers of power. Persecuted to varying degrees and usually deprived of life, liberty and in the pursuit of happiness over the centuries (Rev 13).

The true people of God have always been the underground and ‘wilderness’ assembly of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

No - THIS is why we depict our Lord on the cross . . .
1 Cor. 1
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Preaching Him Crucified is a stumbling block and complete foolishness to you and everybody who is offended by it.
Remember, Einstein - there is NO Resurrection without the Crucifixion . . .

I find it interesting that Protestants use the cross ... no image of Jesus on it.
Catholics use the crucifix...Jesus is on the cross.

I believe @Rollo Tamasi has a good point.

 

[Taken]

Jesus did not condemn repetition, He condemned VANITY, such as the VANITY of your stupid attacks. Nobody ever said we are always right and everyone else is wrong. You are speaking from an inferiority complex viewpoint, which is your problem, not ours.
Mariology developed over time, just as the canon of Scripture developed over 350 years. It's too bad that bible cults such as yours have no concept of development, so you invent Bible origin fantasies of your own.
Your mockery shows just how ignorant and immature you are.
I don't mind putting another Christian Taliban in my ignore bin. Just start behaving like a Christian is supposed to, not another forum terrorist.

 

[Taken]

Jesus did not condemn repetition,

And? Did someone say He did? No.

He condemned VANITY,

Actually what He did is inform men, of the worthlessness to pray in vain....or otherWISE, pray to something other than God Himself.

such as the VANITY of your stupid attacks.

If you state something you are claiming is in Scripture, why do you feel "attacked", when asked to provide the Scripture?

Nobody ever said we are always right and everyone else is wrong.

Seems you have overlooked the forum Defender and Teacher of your Catholic faith...
BOL...routinely declares himself right and everyone else wrong.

You are speaking from an inferiority complex viewpoint, which is your problem, not ours.

No. You are simply making derragatory and false claims against me.....as if.....that is supposed to somehow make your unsustainable claims valid.

You are the one who has made claims of what Scripture SAYS....reveal the Scriptures that say what you claim.

I don't mind putting another Christian Taliban in my ignore bin. Just start behaving like a Christian is supposed to, not another forum terrorist.

That''s FUNNY!
You make claims about your Belief.
You claim they are IN Scripture.
You are asked to provide the Scripture.
Your response is Scripture? No
Your response is unfounded accusations.
Your response is to run and hide behind your unfounded accusations.

When you can provide Scripture, you might be found worthy to consider.

Have or make statues.
Bow before statues.
Mary is Gods intercessory.
Mary was not naturally born in sin.
Mary is the Queen of Heaven.

If you do not believe these say so.
If you do, show them in Scripture!

Or go hide, and know what your claim is simply your unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[Taken]

This response is a misunderstanding of the traditional teaching. All Christians can and should pray directly to Jesus. But no one actually "goes" to Jesus "alone". We all carry with us some mediating group or individual when we go to Jesus.

Jesus is the intercessory, the advocate for any UNsaved man TO have a request of God be made.

You know, such as: an unsaved man's request to be Forgiven....to receive His Forgivenesss.. to receive His Salvation...to receive His Seed.. to receive His indwelling Spirit.

Once the unsaved mans request has been accomplished....they do not pray DIRECTLY to Jesus.

They pray Directy TO the Father, IN their spirit to Gods Spirit, IN Jesus name.

Such a man IS not alone; He IS WITH His God, His Lord, His Gods Spirit.

No one "actually" goes alone?

Yes "actually" they do go alone.

Matt 6
6: When thou prayers, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to the Father.

This fosters an INITMATE relationship between ONE MAN, and Thee ONE God.

And no, Mary and the gang are NOT included.

And No they are NOT "alone" when with thee Lord God Almighty.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You seem as though you have discovered a new revelation.....maybe new to you...but not to all.
He was speaking of a childs, a babes, experience. I guess only in your world, children and babes are full of knowledge and wise! Ha!
People grow, learn, mature.... You imply he left Faith. You ignored his growING, and is here EXALTING the Lord, according TO the Lords Way, rather than according TO what Catholics teach is Their Way.
Don't be mad. Some people favor the Lords WAY over and above the Catholic WAY.

Sooooo, why don't you let Rollo speak for himself??
He did leave his faith for a partial truth. Then he took that partial truth, came to this forum and began to post a litany of lies. How is that "growing" and "exalting"?? It's nothing but breaking God's Commandment against bearing FALSE witness.

Anyway, small children and babies aren't "wise".
Knowledge is one thing. Wisdom is the application of knowledge based on good judgement and experience.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sooooo, why don't you let Rollo speak for himself??
He did leave his faith for a partial truth. Then he took that partial truth, came to this forum and began to post a litany of lies. How is that "growing" and "exalting"?? It's nothing but breaking God's Commandment against bearing FALSE witness.

Anyway, small children and babies aren't "wise".
Knowledge is one thing. Wisdom is the application of knowledge based on good judgement and experience.

You're always calling everyone a liar. It's soooooo boooooriiiiiing.
@Rollo Tamasi has TOLD NO LIES.
He has expressed what he believes to be true, which many agree with, BTW.

You seem like an intelligent fellow, why don't you act like it and stop calling people names.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're always calling everyone a liar. It's soooooo boooooriiiiiing.
@Rollo Tamasi has TOLD NO LIES.
He has expressed what he believes to be true, which many agree with, BTW.

You seem like an intelligent fellow, why don't you act like it and stop calling people names.

What YOU have just stated is a complete and total lie.
First of all - I have NEVER called anybody on this forum a "Liar", so stop bearing false witness.

Secondly - Rollo has told MANY lies.
Here are just a few of Rollo’s lies – from THIS thread alone . . .
“When the first Caesar took over they controlled every person and every religion and they're still trying to do that today”

“romanists (which represent the catholic church based at the Vatican) are not really Christian.”

“No one preaches salvation through Jesus, instead, they preach salvation through Mary and the saints.”

“romanist in general are any of those aliens that called themselves catholics in a roman supported church “

“romanist churches are everywhere and you've been in plenty and they teach you to anethema protestants”

EVERY one of these comments is a LIE - not an "opinion" - so I'm not sure why YOU say that he hasn't lied . . .