Are you catholic?

[Taken]

Spoken like a person who is completely ignorant of the English language.

Spoken by someone who need a q-tip.

Since when is ASKING somebody to pray FOR you "vain", my Scripturally-bankrupt friend??

Gee, you tell me, since, I didn't say that.

Jesus "prayed" to people 135 times in the NT:

Jesus prayed "TO"...the operative word.

#1 from your copy and past list...

Matt 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?

LOL If your going to make a claim..."Jesus prayed to people" try to give a Scripture that actually says what you claim.

LOL

 

[GodsGrace]

Then what WERE you asking me to explain?

Jesus is everywhere.
So how could we say that He's more real in the Eucharist?
What could be more real than real???
The real presence....kids don't understand this and no one I know does.
I'll give you an answer after.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is completely false.
BOTH species are offered at each mass. I'm an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and I serve BOTH.

Can you at least admit that your church is an exeption?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus is everywhere.
So how could we say that He's more real in the Eucharist?
What could be more real than real???
The real presence....kids don't understand this and no one I know does.
I'll give you an answer after.

Because, He is everywhere spiritually.
He is with us in the Eucharist both spiritual AND physically.

 

[Stranger]

I'll answer that question when you aren't so snarky about it . . .

I'm not being snarky. Do Romanists get to partake of the blood and the wine?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I'll answer you.
No. It's not done anymore.
However, both elements are in the host...
The body and the blood.

Thanks. Why? Both are part of the Lords Supper.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Gee, you tell me, since, I didn't say that.
You certainly DID.

You said that asking (Praying) the saints to pray for us is wrong - and now you're back-pedaling . . .

Jesus prayed "TO"...the operative word.
#1 from your copy and past list...
Matt 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?
LOL If your going to make a claim..."Jesus prayed to people" try to give a Scripture that actually says what you claim.
LOL

Yes, Jesus prayed "TO" human beings about 135 times in the NT.
What's so funny about that?

 

[Taken]

That wasn't what I asked you to explain, but no problem.

Shocking!! LOL

I spoke about men praying TO something other than the Father.

And he comes back telling me Jesus "PRAYED" to men 135 times and gives a list of 135 Scriptures...

The first being;
Matt 5:46

Jesus speaking to men about loving them which love you....

I said praying to something other than God, is VAIN.

So he then asks me, how is asking someone to pray FOR you vain...

He can not comprehend what is being said.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks. Why? Both are part of the Lords Supper.

Stranger

One reason is that it takes too long.
Another reason is that everyone drinks from the same cup and it's not sanitary.
I like how little paper cups are used in most Protestant churches.

 

[GodsGrace]

Shocking!! LOL

I spoke about men praying TO something other than the Father.

And he comes back telling me Jesus "PRAYED" to men 135 times and gives a list of 135 Scriptures...

The first being;
Matt 5:46

Jesus speaking to men about loving them which love you....

I said praying to something other than God, is VAIN.

So he then asks me, how is asking someone to pray FOR you vain...

He can not comprehend what is being said.

God Bless,
Taken

Yes. I caught this...
He might be tired!

 

[Taken]

You said that asking (Praying) the saints to pray for us is wrong - and now you're back-pedaling . . .

What is wrong with you?
No I did not say ASKING!

I said, praying TO someone other than the Father is VAIN!

Yes, Jesus prayed "TO" human beings about 135 times in the NT.
What's so funny about that?

Your very first example....of Jesus supposedly praying TO people.....said NOTHING whatsoever about Jesus praying TO people.

You play a little word game, with your carnal thoughts.

Scripture is clear, Prayer in Scripture is always taught a request made specifically TO GOD.

You should know the difference between politely asking someone a question....
Pray, adverb.

And asking God, DIETY, for intervention in your life.
Pray, verb.

Pretending otherwise, so it appears you are instructed to PRAY TO dead people, on your behalf, is not Biblical.

Jesus instructed men...when ye PRAY, pray "OUR FATHER."

When Jesus PRAYED...He PRAYED, "MY Father".

He did not INCLUDE pray "TO" dead people or living people.

Why is applicable Scripture as it stands, simply NOT satisfactory to the Catholics?

 

[Taken]

Yes. I caught this...
He might be tired!

Maybe sleep talking!
Pretty cloudy and windy today, but everything is green and budding.
Wildflowers are awesome everywhere..
Wanna come over?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[epostle1]

"Her intercession" ?
"She is your intercessor, your advocate, your mediator, your middle man, between you and God?
Scripture?

You grossly misrepresent everything I said.

Her Children? Sure, why would she not lead "her children" to her Son?

I get it. However I fail to see Mary being the mother of every child ever born.

Scripture?
Scripture? Mary is the whom one goes through?
Quite astounding....what the Church has taught, when men could not read.
But now that men CAN READ...
Where is the Scripture to support, GO THROUGH MARY?
Where in Scripture is such a tale foretold or prophesied such an appearance of Mary shall ocurr?
Scripture says to TRUST God.
Where does God say...Mary is a mans intercessory TO Him?
Jesus taught the lesson...Christians can mimic HIM, or make up their own rituals and requirements.
Jesus IS the intercessory, between an unsaved man and God.
A man WHO goes THROUGH Christ Jesus, becomes saved...AND
Has DIRECTLY met God and has DIRECT access TO God.
Was a mystery...Jesus revealed...No longer a mystery!
Wow..."Going THROUGH Mary is the KEY.."
Odd how the Scriptures FORGOT to Mention going THROUGH Mary....
and I

And? Did someone say He did? No.

Actually what He did is inform men, of the worthlessness to pray in vain....or otherWISE, pray to something other than God Himself.
If you state something you are claiming is in Scripture, why do you feel "attacked", when asked to provide the Scripture?
Seems you have overlooked the forum Defender and Teacher of your Catholic faith...
BOL...routinely declares himself right and everyone else wrong.


No. You are simply making derragatory and false claims against me.....as if.....that is supposed to somehow make your unsustainable claims valid.
You are the one who has made claims of what Scripture SAYS....reveal the Scriptures that say what you claim.
That''s FUNNY!
You make claims about your Belief.
You claim they are IN Scripture.
You are asked to provide the Scripture.
Your response is Scripture? No
Your response is unfounded accusations.
Your response is to run and hide behind your unfounded accusations.
When you can provide Scripture, you might be found worthy to consider.
Have or make statues.
Bow before statues.
Mary is Gods intercessory.
Mary was not naturally born in sin.
Mary is the Queen of Heaven.
If you do not believe these say so.
If you do, show them in Scripture!
Or go hide, and know what your claim is simply your unsubstantiated opinion.

NSTEAD said to go THROUGH Jesus.
One does NOT have to ENTER HELL, to know it was never taught in Scripture as the place one, should desire to enter.
Do you comprehend THROUGH?

Jesus is the intercessory, the advocate for any UNsaved man TO have a request of God be made.
You know, such as: an unsaved man's request to be Forgiven....to receive His Forgivenesss.. to receive His Salvation...to receive His Seed.. to receive His indwelling Spirit.
Once the unsaved mans request has been accomplished....they do not pray DIRECTLY to Jesus.
They pray Directy TO the Father, IN their spirit to Gods Spirit, IN Jesus name.

Such a man IS not alone; He IS WITH His God, His Lord, His Gods Spirit.
no one "actually" goes alone?
Yes "actually" they do go alone.
Matt 6
6: When thou prayers, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to the Father.
This fosters an INITMATE relationship between ONE MAN, and Thee ONE God.
And no, Mary and the gang are NOT included.

And No they are NOT "alone" when with thee Lord God Almighty.

Show me in scripture, show me in scripture, show me in scripture
IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE!
Where in scripture does it explicitly state that all doctrines and practices must be found in scripture to be valid?
NOWHERE!
It is a false man made tradition. Your sola scriptura was invented in the 16th century when Martin Luther lost a debate, plus he was mad at the Pope. The author of your false tradition was emotionally disturbed and your whole system is based on the opinions of a mad man.

In 1937, a Copenhagen Psychiatrist, Paul J. Reiter MD wrote a 2 volume study, Martin Luther's World Character and Psychosis and the Influence of These Factors on his Development and Teachings which also demonstrated in detail from his own writings that Luther was mentally disturbed.
There is a review of Reiter's book here:
PEP Web - Martin Luthers Umwelt Charakter Und Psychose Sowie Die Bedeutung Dieser Faktoren Für Seine Entwicklung Und Lehre. I. Die Umwelt. II. Luthers Persönlichkeit, Seelenleben Und Krankheiten. (Martin Luther's World Character and Psychosis and the Influence of These Factors on his Development and Teachings. 2 Volumes.): By Paul J. Reiter, M.D. Copenhagen: Ejnar Munksgaard. Vol. I, 1937, 402 pp. Vol. II, 1941, 633 pp.

I back up what I say. Sola scriptura did not exist before the Prot. Revolt. You throw up straw man fallacies and back up nothing. Since you are not educated enough to comprehend post #229-230, you don't know what a straw man fallacy is, and you commit it constantly.
I have lots of scripture, scripture, scripture but you won't accept them because they conflict with your deified opinions.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION

​

God'sGrace:
"You are a liar" is an attack on the person.
"That statement is a lie" attacks the statement, not the person.
The first violates the rules, the second one does not.

 

[epostle1]

What is wrong with you?
No I did not say ASKING!
I said, praying TO someone other than the Father is VAIN!
Your very first example....of Jesus supposedly praying TO people.....said NOTHING whatsoever about Jesus praying TO people.
You play a little word game, with your carnal thoughts.
Scripture is clear, Prayer in Scripture is always taught a request made specifically TO GOD.
You should know the difference between politely asking someone a question....
Pray, adverb.
And asking God, DIETY, for intervention in your life.
Pray, verb.
Pretending otherwise, so it appears you are instructed to PRAY TO dead people, on your behalf, is not Biblical.
Jesus instructed men...when ye PRAY, pray "OUR FATHER."
When Jesus PRAYED...He PRAYED, "MY Father".
He did not INCLUDE pray "TO" dead people or living people.
Why is applicable Scripture as it stands, simply NOT satisfactory to the Catholics?

If you have ever been to a Mass, you would see that almost the entire Mass is prayers directly to the Father. Should you ever find yourself at a wedding or a funeral Mass, try not to shut your ears.

It’s understood in Catholic spirituality and theology that any of us can pray to God at any time. The Bible emphasizes relationship to God, as sons and daughters to a Father. That said, there is also the practice of praying for each other. Our Protestant brethren in Christ (who generally reject intercession of the saints) have the notion of “getting a holy man [or the pastor, etc.] to pray for you.”

Hence, a person would, for example, ask Billy Graham to pray for them, because it is thought that somehow his prayer might have more effect. This intuition is actually based on explicit biblical testimony:

James 5:14-18 (RSV) “Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”

Note here that the Bible itself recommends asking someone else to pray: “the elders” of the Church, who, like other Church leaders (1 Tim 3:1-13; Titus 1:7), are supposed to be of exemplary character, and “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). They have more power, due to their ordination.

To nail down his point, St. James cites the example of the prophet Elijah. When he prayed, it didn’t rain for three and a half years. James says this was the case because (here is the principle he wishes to convey): “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” We see the same dynamic in the following passage:

1 Kings 13:6 “And the king said to the man of God, ‘Entreat now the favor of the LORD your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.’ And the man of God entreated the LORD; and the king’s hand was restored to him, and became as it was before.”

But still, dead saints?

This is the biblical rationale for asking others, of more spiritual stature in the kingdom, or holier (or, best of all, both!) to pray for us. But that is not yet the same as asking a (dead) saint to pray for us. How does one arrive at that conclusion? It takes a little more work, but it is possible to ground it, too, in Scripture.

In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb … with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?

If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion: ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equating incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

It seems clear that they have heard the prayers of men, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.

This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow know about our prayers and present them to God. They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”) and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.

Putting it all together

We also know of several incidents in which dead men (even some from heaven) interact with those on earth: the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31), the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him: 1 Sam 28:7-20), and “many bodies of the saints” that came out of their graves after Jesus’ Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). In the deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees (15:13-16) the prophet Jeremiah returns to earth.

This is our rationale for asking saints to pray to God for us: all in perfect harmony with the Bible:

1) Holy men and women’s prayers have great power.

2) Dead saints are perfected in holiness and are still part of the Body of Christ.

3) The Blessed Virgin Mary in particular is exceptionally holy (Immaculate Conception) and as the Mother of God, her prayers have more power and effect than that of any other creature: all by God’s grace.

4) We know that they are aware of what goes on in the earth.

5) We know that they exercise much charity and pray for us.
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2014/10/why-should-we-pray-to-saints-rather-than-to-god/
Thus, Taken's claim: Prayer in Scripture is always taught a request made specifically TO GOD, is false.

Mary can do nothing without God, another concept that evades anti-Catholic sensibilities.

 

[epostle1]

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope
to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

 

[epostle1]

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament.
. Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: "Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor" (1 Pet. 2:17).

The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: "Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: "He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward" (Matt. 10:41).

So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7).

One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible’s well-known "hall of fame" chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1)—the race that the saints have run before us.

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: "I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church" (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith" (Heb. 13:7). One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible’s well-known "hall of fame" chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1)—the race that the saints have run before us.

Taken may need more scriptures.

 

[epostle1]

Have you ever talked to anyone who exclaimed: “The Bible never shows anyone praying to anyone other than God! And we can never communicate to anyone who is dead, either; that’s occultic!”

Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that they claim is nonexistent in Scripture. In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext:

Luke 16:24

His answer was, in effect, “no” (16:25-26). Having failed in that request, the rich man prays to him again for something else:
Luke 16:27-28
His request is again declined (16:29). He argues with Abraham (16:30), but Abraham reiterates that what he asks is futile (16:31). All of this reveals to us that not only can dead saints hear our requests; they also have some measure of power to carry them out on their own (though no doubt by God’s power). Abraham is asked to “send” a dead man to appear to the rich man’s brothers, in order for them to avoid damnation.

Abraham doesn’t deny that he is able to potentially send Lazarus to do such a thing; he only denies that it would work (by the logic of “if they don’t respond to greater factor x, nor will they respond to lesser factor y”). Therefore, it is assumed in the story that Abraham had the ability and authority to do so on his own. And this is all taught, remember, by our Lord Jesus.

The fact that the rich man is dead (in the story they are both in Hades or Sheol: the intermediate netherworld) is irrelevant to the argument at hand, since standard Protestant theology holds that no one should make such a request to anyone but God. He’s asking Abraham to send Lazarus to him, and then to his brothers, so that they can avoid his own fate.

That is very much a prayer: asking for supernatural aid from those who have left the earthly life and attained a greater perfection. Also, rather strikingly (and disturbingly for Protestant theology), God is never mentioned in the entire story of Lazarus and the rich man. It’s all about the rich man asking / praying to Abraham for two different requests.

Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation (11:3-13) came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Mt 27:50-53), etc.

Taken, need more scripture, scripture, scripture???

 

[Nomad]

That is very much a prayer: asking for supernatural aid from those who have left the earthly life and attained a greater perfection.

Scripture does in fact clearly address such nonsense. Also, I would be happy to discuss your ridiculous examples of prayer to the dead.

Deu 18:9 "When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

 

[epostle1]

Scripture does in fact clearly address such nonsense. Also, I would be happy to discuss your ridiculous examples of prayer to the dead.

Why didn't you discuss them instead of shoveling this as manure in my face? Why did you dismiss post #296? Ignoring and denying doesn't make for much of a discussion.

Deu 18:9 "When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

You should try and deal with Luke 16 instead of running from it.
Prayers to the dead have nothing to do with enquirers of the dead, necromancy is entirely at odds with Catholic teaching. In fact it's a serious sin. Equating them is just prejudice and ignorance. See divination and magic 2116.

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
The reformers built a kind of "Berlin Wall" between heaven and earth.

Rom. 8:35-39 – therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 – Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 – Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
(participate does not mean "replace")
1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

The reformers, esp. Calvin, invented a false dichotomy, the extremes of "either/or" and not "both/and". If Jesus is the sole mediator, subordinate mediator is unthinkable, even though a subordinate mediator gets their mediating powers from Christ. Thus, the Protestant dichotomy is false.

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
(participate does not mean "replace")

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

 

[Taken]

You grossly misrepresent everything I said.

No I did not.

You repeated umpteen time, the WAY to Jesus Christ is "THROUGH" Mary.

I specifically used your Umpteen own words.

And I disagree with you.

You can VERIFY "your claims" IN Scripture, If you so desire to have "your claims" to be considered....

You also repeated that MARY is all of mankinds "MOTHER"...

And I disagree with you.

You can VERIFY "your claims" IN Scripture, If you so desire to have "your claims" to be considers.

You also said Mary is the teacher, and example of How a Mother should be.

Huh? Where are her great examples taught in Scripture that any other human woman had to learn from Mary?

You also said She was Human AND She was naturally born without sin.

Huh? Where is this Exceptional lie taught in Scripture? All earthly men are born in Sin...
Nothing whatsoever says she was naturally born without sin, or naturally born holy.

But you can also provide Scripture to the contrary.

You also indicated you have to Believe she is an exception, naturally born holy, without sin, so you can admire her, WITHOUT that admiration being in competition with worshiping Jesus.

Nothing in Scripture teaching such nonsense.
But you can attempt to provide Scripture that validates your claim.

You may have adopted Mary as YOUR Mother, but I have a Mother, and it is not Mary.

Mary was chosen to fuflill a service unto God, and did so.
All who are BORN AGAIN are made holy, and fulfill service unto God, that He directs them to do.
Mary was called "BLESSED", because She fulfilled her service, glorifying Gods Name.
So is every other person "BLESSED', when they fulfill their service, glorifying Gods Name.

Nothing whatsoever in Scripture says to carve statues in ones likeness, and bow down to them in reverence, because they fulfilled a service unto the Lord that glorifies His Name.

As a matter of FACT, Scripture says the complet opposite.
That IF a man fulfills a service unto the Lord that glorifies the Lord....and other men "reward" them...they lose their "rewards" God had prepared for them to receive FROM HIM!

The Scripture simply said Mary was blessed among Women.
The Scripture does not say she was the ONLY woman blessed.
The Scripture does not say she should have here blessing FROM GOD quenched, because men build statues unto her, and then teach, the ONLY way to Jesus, IS THROUGH HER.

Scripture says the ONLY WAY to GOD, is THROUGH Jesus!

Scripture says the WAY TO JESUS, is by a mans natural spirit in his Heart, to CONFESS Belief in Jesus.

Mary IS NOT part of the equation!

So, on all counts I did not misrepresent you..
I disagreed with you.

And you can VALIDATE YOUR CLAIMS, with Scripture....or just keep making your claims based on Catholic teaching....which validates nothing.

God Bless,
Taken