WHY I COULD NEVER CHOOSE TO BE A PROTESTANT. (one stupid thread title is as good as another)

[twinc]

If the Catholic Church as a group were over the centuries following Jesus and the Holy Spirit closely instead of blindly following the ways of men there would have been little incentive or willingness or need to come out of her and re-establish.

So the Reformers supposedly came out of her, but from what I can see they also often moved blindly and sometimes even more deeply into the ways of men.

Both Catholics and Reformers made mistakes but the whole mess was started by people centuries earlier than the Reformation and snowballed into and through deluded leaders and followers who had lost their first love [if ever they had that right "first love"]. Many or even most of those who left the Catholic fold did not find that love and so we have... something similar to Noah's time or similar to Sodom and Gomorrah's time? Why are people as a whole so far away from Eden before sin in spite of the sacrifice of Jesus for us? Help us dear Lord!

Jeroboam, called by the prophet of God went his own way and molded golden calves to worship and false priests to minister, but Rehoboam opened the door by following his flesh rather than God. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Now, we, all of us, should be leaving that unchangeable past and moving toward the Light which Jesus is. God still draws to Him those who are hungry and thirsty for His righteousness in order to fill them. Catholics and Protestants and others are invited. But... unfortunately I anticipate more conflict rather than less because so many still continue to say, "We are right and they are wrong". When we put our church or leadership or worldly things first, we are wrong no matter what church affiliation we have...

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

so we are supposed to accept that Jesus's prayer go unanswered but that those of yourself and others
be answered that you are right now that the Catholic Church is wrong and has failed - be reasonable and come back home - twinc

 

[BreadOfLife]

The devil couldn't care less how many wonderful works your church has done. I agree that t has done some great humanitarian work around the world, but it accomplishes nothing for eternity if all 1.3 million Catholics are being spiritually starved to death.

Perhaps YOU could shed some light on how Catholics are being Spiritually "starved to death".
This should be an easy task for you . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If the Catholic Church as a group were over the centuries following Jesus and the Holy Spirit closely instead of blindly following the ways of men there would have been little incentive or willingness or need to come out of her and re-establish.

Sooooo, when Jesus told Peter that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18) - He was just kidding - or lying?

Please enlighten us . . .

 

[amadeus]

Sooooo, when Jesus told Peter that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18) - He was just kidding - or lying?

Please enlighten us . . .

And they certainly have not, so what does that say about the Church is and what it is not?

 

[BreadOfLife]

And they certainly have not, so what does that say about the Church is and what it is not?

And again, you dodged the question.

My question to YOU was:
When Jesus told Peter that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18)- was He just kidding - or lying?

 

[amadeus]

And again, you dodged the question.

My question to YOU was:
When Jesus told Peter that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18)- was He just kidding - or lying?

No, actually if you understood what I wrote I did answer the question. You had apparently just admitted that the Catholic Church was not the Church since it was unable to stand against the Reformers.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, actually if you understood what I wrote I did answer the question. You had apparently just admitted that the Catholic Church was not the Church since it did was unable to stand against the Reformers.

Historically-bankrupt nonsense.

Not only is the Catholic Church still here - it is by FAR, bigger than any Protestant splinter sect.
It has been here for 2000 years and will be here until Christ returns.

Not sure where you're getting your history - but it's not from this planet . . .

 

[amadeus]

Historically-bankrupt nonsense.

Not only is the Catholic Church still here - it is by FAR, bigger than any Protestant splinter sect.
It has been here for 2000 years and will be here until Christ returns.

Not sure where you're getting your history - but it's not from this planet . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

Not only is the Catholic Church still here - it is by FAR, bigger than any Protestant splinter sect.
It has been here for 2000 years and will be here until Christ returns.

Just like venereal disease lots of it around but no good for anyone. And it to will be around till Christ returns and being here longer than your church as if that proves anything, but than you have nothing else.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

God bless

 

[twinc]

Just like venereal disease lots of it around but no good for anyone. And it to will be around till Christ returns and being here longer than your church as if that proves anything, but than you have nothing else.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

God bless

its members maybe but the Catholic Church is by no means wretched, miserable, poor, blind or naked or failed - twinc

 

[Phoneman777]

In other words, my ignorant friend - you cannot refute the historical facts I presented - so you have no choice but to revert to "attack mode." Yes, the last refuge of the TRULY desperate . . .

Finally - your pathetic accusation about "sex trafficking" - this was never even been an issue in the Catholic sex abuse scandal.

Was it an issue in the much wider spread Protestant sex scandals??
Do your homework, sparky . . .

And you seem to always resort to false facts and a distortion of the truth. Do you even study history? Queen Elizabeth was fighting against Popery and all the scandalous intrigue that ever surrounds the Papacy. The Pope possessed such power and influence that one word from him could depose a king from his throne or risk "anathema", that stupid, idiotic threat by Rome that so successfully struck fear into the hearts of the duped masses who were unfortunately led to believe that the church actually has any say so whatsoever over one's eternal destiny.

Do you indict the Queen for taking measures to protect Protestantism from Popery? Where are your indictments of the rest of history's papal leaders who from 538 AD - 1798 AD were responsible for between FIFTY MILLION TO ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION DEATHS OF INNOCENT PROTESTANTS who refused to go alone with Rome's demonic doctrines? Queen Mary killed and burned for the crime of being a Protestant. Queen Bess, like any king or queen faced with treacherous enemies both from without and within, took appropriate measures. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges. The RCC is as much afflicted with the disease of Control Freakism as is the Devil, which is why the kingdom of Satan and the Papal kingdom are so identical in goal and operation.

"FACSICM IS THE REGIME THAT CORRESPONDS MOST CLOSELY TO THE CONCEPTS OF THE CHURCH OF ROME." - Civilita Cattoliga

 

[Phoneman777]

without exception the 'Reformers' were Antichrist - as bad as sexual abuse of innocent children is it can and should not be accepted and regarded as better than mental and spiritual abuse via lies and unforgiveable blasphemy which kills both body and mind and soul in hell - twinc

LOL The Reformers were Antichrist? That's brilliant. No, the Papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy, which seeks to take the place of God, and I'm just brimming with excitement when the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians, known all to well by those great 16th century - 19th century Protestant men of God, is fulfilled: "And then shall that great wicked (Papacy) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

The message to you, twinc, is "come out of her (Papal Babylon) that you be not partakers of her sins and receive not of her plagues."

 

[Phoneman777]

imho the different road blocks and traps have been set up by 'Reformers' and the Devil or there never would have been a false reformation - the devil having failed with trying it out with Jesus thought he might succeed with humans but here also his wiles had been prepared against by a Pope and his faith that would not and cannot fail - twinc

You're kidding, right? Do you not realize your beloved RCC actually SOLD forgiveness of sins, and even sold it to people in advance? Or, that the RCC put to death between 50 - 150 MILLION innocent Christians for the crime of rejecting Papal dunghill dogma? Or, that the Pope claims all the names, titles, and prerogatives, given to Christ? What a shame that Dead Bread and yourself are so brainwashed by this Satanic system that you can't escape your sad devotion to it. But, the Jesuits have always said that if you give the church your child for the first years, that child will be Catholic for life. Of course, it's claimed that Voltaire made it up, not Loyola, but since Voltaire was a Jesuit and Jesuits are taught to play "both sides of the conflict, that the greater good may be realized by the RCC", well....

 

[BreadOfLife]

And you seem to always resort to false facts and a distortion of the truth. Do you even study history? Queen Elizabeth was fighting against Popery and all the scandalous intrigue that ever surrounds the Papacy. The Pope possessed such power and influence that one word from him could depose a king from his throne or risk "anathema", that stupid, idiotic threat by Rome that so successfully struck fear into the hearts of the duped masses who were unfortunately led to believe that the church actually has any say so whatsoever over one's eternal destiny.

Do you indict the Queen for taking measures to protect Protestantism from Popery? Where are your indictments of the rest of history's papal leaders who from 538 AD - 1798 AD were responsible for between FIFTY MILLION TO ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION DEATHS OF INNOCENT PROTESTANTS who refused to go alone with Rome's demonic doctrines? Queen Mary killed and burned for the crime of being a Protestant. Queen Bess, like any king or queen faced with treacherous enemies both from without and within, took appropriate measures. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges. The RCC is as much afflicted with the disease of Control Freakism as is the Devil, which is why the kingdom of Satan and the Papal kingdom are so identical in goal and operation.

"FACSICM IS THE REGIME THAT CORRESPONDS MOST CLOSELY TO THE CONCEPTS OF THE CHURCH OF ROME." - Civilita Cattoliga

Careful - your ignorance is showing again . . .

First of all - an "anathema" is simply an excommunication. It isn't a damnation or a physical punishment.

As for Popes being responsible for 50-150 MILLION deaths - there is so much that is perversely wrong with that statement - it's difficult to know where to begin. This would have completely wiped out MOST of Europe.
150 million indeed . . .

FIRST of all, 150 million is 300% more than 50 million - so your numbers are ridiculously skewed.
This would have completely wiped out MOST of Europe. 150 million indeed . . .

SECONDLY - not ONE single Protestant was ever put to death BY a Pope or by a Papal decree.
If there was - the onus is on YOU to provide the documentation instead of your asinine accusations.

As for the couple of hundred people that Queen Mary had executed - that was HER decision - not the Pope's.
As for Elizabeth, as I informed you earlier - her murderous numbers go into the tens of thousands.

Ummm, talk about control freaks . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're kidding, right? Do you not realize your beloved RCC actually SOLD forgiveness of sins, and even sold it to people in advance?
Or, that the RCC put to death between 50 - 150 MILLION innocent Christians for the crime of rejecting Papal dunghill dogma?
Or, that the Pope claims all the names, titles, and prerogatives, given to Christ? What a shame that Dead Bread and yourself are so brainwashed by this Satanic system that you can't escape your sad devotion to it. But, the Jesuits have always said that if you give the church your child for the first years, that child will be Catholic for life. Of course, it's claimed that Voltaire made it up, not Loyola, but since Voltaire was a Jesuit and Jesuits are taught to play "both sides of the conflict, that the greater good may be realized by the RCC", well....

First of all - provide some historical documentation that the Catholic Church ever promoted the "selling" of forgiveness.

Secondly - show me some historical evidence for the moronic charge that the Catholic Church killed between 50-150 MILLION people. This would have wiped out most of Europe, einstein.

Finally - if the Pope claims "ALL" of the names and titles reserved for Jesus - show me where the Pope has the title of:
"Son of God"
"Second Person of the Trinity"
"Prince of Peace"
"Son of Man"
"Emmanuel"
"Logos"
"Son of David"
"Lamb of God"
"Christ"
"Light of the World"
"King of the Jews"

As a matter of fact - the following 8 titles are the ONLY ones claimed by the Pope:
- Bishop of Rome
- Vicar of Jesus Christ
- Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
- Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church
- Primate of Italy
- Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province
- Sovereign of the Vatican City State
- Servant of the servants of God

Your ignorance is ALMOST as appalling as your blatant lies . . .

 

[epostle1]

30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.
Holy Mary: 150 Reasons why I'm a Catholic

 

[epostle1]

If the Catholic Church as a group were over the centuries following Jesus and the Holy Spirit closely instead of blindly following the ways of men there would have been little incentive or willingness or need to come out of her and re-establish.

Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.

Yet we can go further than decrying the Reformation as unnecessary. In his ground-breaking work, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer argued that the Catholic Church herself is necessary for the full flowering of the Reformation principles. In other words, you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work for Protestantism's principles fully to develop. Thus, the Reformation was not only unnecessary; it was impossible. What the Reformers sought, argues Bouyer, could not be achieved without the Catholic Church.

From Bouyer's conclusion we can infer at least two things. First, Protestantism can't be all wrong, otherwise how could the Catholic Church bring about the "full flowering of the principles of the Reformation"? Second, left to itself, Protestantism will go astray and be untrue to some of its central principles. It's these two points, as Bouyer articulates them, I would like to consider here. One thing should be said up-front: although a convert from French Protestantism, Bouyer is no anti-Protestant polemicist. His Spirit and Forms of Protestantism was written a half-century ago, a decade before Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, yet it avoids the bitter anti-Protestantism that sometimes afflicted pre-conciliar Catholic works on Protestantism. That's one reason the book remains useful, even after decades of post-conciliar ecumenism.

In that regard, Bouyer's brief introduction is worth quoting in full:

This book is a personal witness, a plain account of the way in which a Protestant came to feel himself obliged in conscience to give his adherence to the Catholic Church. No sentiment of revulsion turned him from the religion fostered in him by a Protestant upbringing followed by several years in the ministry. The fact is, he has never rejected it. It was his desire to explore its depths, its full scope, that led him, step by step, to a genuinely spiritual movement stemming from the teachings of the Gospel, and Protestantism as an institution, or rather complexus of institutions, hostile to one another as well as to the Catholic Church. The study of this conflict brought him to detect the fatal error which drove the spiritual movement of Protestantism out of the one Church. He saw the necessity of returning to that Church, not in order to reject any of the positive Christian elements of his religious life, but to enable them, at last, to develop without hindrance.

Bouyer, then, addresses both Protestants and Catholics. To the Protestants, he says, in effect, "It is fidelity to our Protestant principles, properly understood, that has led me into the Catholic Church." To the Catholics, he says, "Protestantism isn't as antithetical to the Catholic Faith as you suppose. It has positive principles, as well as negative ones. Its positive principles, properly understood, belong to the Catholic Tradition, which we Catholics can see if we approach Protestantism with a bit of understanding and openness."
Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

 

[Triumph1300]

you are a deluded misinformed anti-Catholic

That's it Amadeus.

 

[amadeus]

Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.

Yet we can go further than decrying the Reformation as unnecessary. In his ground-breaking work, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer argued that the Catholic Church herself is necessary for the full flowering of the Reformation principles. In other words, you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work for Protestantism's principles fully to develop. Thus, the Reformation was not only unnecessary; it was impossible. What the Reformers sought, argues Bouyer, could not be achieved without the Catholic Church.

From Bouyer's conclusion we can infer at least two things. First, Protestantism can't be all wrong, otherwise how could the Catholic Church bring about the "full flowering of the principles of the Reformation"? Second, left to itself, Protestantism will go astray and be untrue to some of its central principles. It's these two points, as Bouyer articulates them, I would like to consider here. One thing should be said up-front: although a convert from French Protestantism, Bouyer is no anti-Protestant polemicist. His Spirit and Forms of Protestantism was written a half-century ago, a decade before Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, yet it avoids the bitter anti-Protestantism that sometimes afflicted pre-conciliar Catholic works on Protestantism. That's one reason the book remains useful, even after decades of post-conciliar ecumenism.

In that regard, Bouyer's brief introduction is worth quoting in full:

This book is a personal witness, a plain account of the way in which a Protestant came to feel himself obliged in conscience to give his adherence to the Catholic Church. No sentiment of revulsion turned him from the religion fostered in him by a Protestant upbringing followed by several years in the ministry. The fact is, he has never rejected it. It was his desire to explore its depths, its full scope, that led him, step by step, to a genuinely spiritual movement stemming from the teachings of the Gospel, and Protestantism as an institution, or rather complexus of institutions, hostile to one another as well as to the Catholic Church. The study of this conflict brought him to detect the fatal error which drove the spiritual movement of Protestantism out of the one Church. He saw the necessity of returning to that Church, not in order to reject any of the positive Christian elements of his religious life, but to enable them, at last, to develop without hindrance.

Bouyer, then, addresses both Protestants and Catholics. To the Protestants, he says, in effect, "It is fidelity to our Protestant principles, properly understood, that has led me into the Catholic Church." To the Catholics, he says, "Protestantism isn't as antithetical to the Catholic Faith as you suppose. It has positive principles, as well as negative ones. Its positive principles, properly understood, belong to the Catholic Tradition, which we Catholics can see if we approach Protestantism with a bit of understanding and openness."
Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation

This Louis Bouyer may be right about the success of Protestantism, but making Protestantism work is not and should not be any man's goal. Our goal should be to follow God wherever He leads us. For this reason He sent Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Protestantism did not solve the problems that had long existed in Catholicism as neither of them generally was following God. They were each striving for what they wanted for their own large or small group, rather than for what God really wanted from and for everyone... How many people on either side were really were interested in going the right Way, the Way that Jesus had lived as a man and had taught His followers? The power of Catholicism as a group of men was diminished considerably by the loss of numbers and by the opposition of the new Protestant groups but that was man's power, not God's. The power of God was working in His people, the ones following the lead of the Holy Spirit, without regard to whether they Catholic or Protestant or something else. These were the few who were NOT suppressing or quenching the Holy Spirit in themselves. These were the sincere ones who were moving closer to God.

God has always been working in a few believers submitted to the Holy Spirit from the time of that first day of Pentecost described in Acts 2. The prevalent teaching, among Catholics before and after the Reformation and later also among Protestants, which sought to quench the Holy Spirit, opened some hitherto closed doors for people who were following the Holy Spirit. The Reformation was in God's plan even if many of the Reformers like many of the Catholics were working on their own agendas rather than following the Holy Spirit. They were working as the left hand of God. God used their animosity toward each other to keep them from interfering with those few moving through the strait gate and the narrow way as led by the Holy Spirit toward Life.

 

[twinc]

That's it Amadeus.

it seems that Amadeus and the author of post 273 will not accept that if your give your child to the Church for the first few years of its life that child will remain a Catholic for life - twinc