CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[Helen]

Actually - I simply meant "congregation" - not "building".

I wanted to know if you regularly attended a service or belonged to any particular congregation.
And, if not - WHY not?

Okay...my post is on This thread....page 9 #162 that should says it all.

Any comments?

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture teaches TO DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. This is notifying you; The WORD itself is PURE TRUTH....however the WORD DOES NOT APPLY THE SAME TO ALL PEOPLE.

There IS A DIVISION IN Gods WORD.

What a MAN chooses SHALL APPLY TO HIM, DOES NOT MEAN IT APPLYS THE SAME to all other men.

Jesus CAME to EFFECT the DIVISION.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you NAY;
But rather DIVISION.

Every man CAN Elect and Choose which SIDE of the DIVISION he Wants to STAND.

Jews for Centuries have Believed IN thee Heavenly God, and have HOPE of Him. Their Messiah, appearing TO THEM, TO SAVE THEM.

He CAME, He Appeared.....YET, He did not Come AS THEY EXPECTED and INVISIONED...
So, many Jews did not, do not ACCEPT Jesus as THEIR MESSIAH.

That does not prohibit them FROM continuing to Believe IN God, or Their Messiah!

The Gentiles WHO traditionally DID NOT Believe IN the Jewish God, Began trusting the Testimony of the Jewish Messiah having arrived....and then ALSO began believing IN the Jewish God.

These Beliefs are ALL INDIVIDUAL mens elections and choices of what they TRUST to Believe.

Jesus' PARAMOUNT DIVISION, IS DIVIDING all men....WHO believe IN Him....from those WHO elect to NOT Believe IN Him.

All men have their Individual Natural life-span, to MAKE THEIR own election/choices.

Scripture repeatedly teaches....for a man to NOT dally. Rather to hear, learn, make his choice....since a man never knows when his own natural life may end; and his opportunity to CHOOSE expired.

A man WHO hears, learns, believes.......AND
ELECTS to CHOOSE AND Submit TO Jesus, Christ the Lord.....
THAT MAN, IS MADE Secure in WHICH SIDE of the DIVISION he FOREVER STANDS.

THAT MAN, IS KEPT SECURE "FOREVER" BY and THROUGH the Indwelling POWER OF GOD Himself.

And other men? Men who Believe in God?
Men without the Indwelling Spirit? How are they KEPT Secure in Belief?
BY THEIR OWN POWER.

Can a mans OWN POWER faulter, fail, be wavering? Absolutely!

And Scripture repeatedly WARNS THEM....if they are going to RELY on their OWN Power ... they must DO SO until the END of their natural life in order to BECOME Saved.

And men who Accept the Spirit of God, received during a Conversion, effected by and through Christ Jesus the Lord?
... they BECOME SAVED, during the Conversion....and NOTHING can UNDO that.

They ARE thereafter, blessed for ANY works they do that glorify God.
They thereafter, miss out on blessings for ANY works that do NOT glorify God.

However, THEY SHALL ... both good workers and not so good workers....BE occupants of Gods Kingdom!

Bottom line...Considering the DIVISION...
A man WITH, IN, and Christ IN HIM...ARE Forever WITH, IN, and Christ IN HIM.

A man WITHOUT, Christ....have a whole different set of Circumstances....That DO NOT APPLY TO A MAN IN and WITH Christ.

Thus....the Word of God becomes DIVIDED, dependent upon what MEN elect to choose.

Pay attention to WHO is being spoken TO in Scripture.
You provided Scriptures of men that CAN FALL AWAY......but you did not consider WHY or HOW that APPLIES to a man IN CHRIST....

Because it DOES NOT APPLY to a MAN IN Christ....nor would it APPLY to YOU, if you are IN Christ.

God Bless,
Taken[/QUOTE]
Do you have some scripture of Jesus saying that we just have to believe in Him and we will be saved FOREVER?

Would this conflict with all the scripture I've posted?
Does the bible contradict itself?

Please post scripture. Your long posts are your own opinion.

 

[Helen]

Scripture teaches TO DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. This is notifying you; The WORD itself is PURE TRUTH....however the WORD DOES NOT APPLY THE SAME TO ALL PEOPLE.

There IS A DIVISION IN Gods WORD.

What a MAN chooses SHALL APPLY TO HIM, DOES NOT MEAN IT APPLYS THE SAME to all other men.

Don't you just love all her CAPS

Actually, in reading both of your posts in one run on ..( somewhere the quote got messed up! )

I find I fall between the two of you....somethings in her post I do agree with, and some disagree with ... also with yours...some I do, some I don't.

I also believe as you know... John 10

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

 

[Taken]

And I noticed that you said NOTHING about remaining in this condition.
God promises to never leave US - but He never says that we can't leave HIM.

Therein lies your blunder . . .

And again - NOWHERE does God say that WE can't walk away from HIM.
He only promises that HE won't walk away from US.
[/QUOTE]

Per your usual...
You have been told.
You have been Shown in Scripture HOW and WHY a Converted man can Never Again be separated from God.

God is 100% faithful.

Yes He is Faithful.
And NO He does not Lie, even when men like you teach, that His INDWELLING Power is Not sufficient To Keep a Converted man Faithful To Him Forever.

YOU aren't. That is just your arrogance talking again . . .

You can call me arrogant and incapable of Remaining Faithful to God FOREVER......

However your accusations Are False....
Precisely because you are ignorant of Gods Understanding and too stiffnecked and stubborn to put away what you have been taught And Accept the Lords Truth and Understanding.

I am forever Faithful.....
Pay Attention....
BECAUSE of His INDWELLING Power!!!

Sheesh!!
Stop trying to turn His Truth into a LIE.

No

- it's the Lords indwelling Spirit that keeps us going IF we don't push him away.

If We? With what Power Can a man With He INDWELLING Power?

Go ahead....Continue your Ill learned message regarding the Converted.
...in Opposition of Christ's Word.

No man shall pluck them out of his hand..

Greater is He that is IN you than he that is in the world.....

Carry on falsely teaching .... otherwise.

That's what SIN is.

No it isn't.

Your arrogance is a sin.

You obviously DO not know the difference between arrogance AND shamelessly having full trust and faith in the Lord God.

You wouldn't be the first one to jump off that boat - and you certainly won't be the last . . .

I wasn't the first to get on the boat....
However I did Learn the Truth of HOW TO get on the boat...(unlike you who testified YOU did not make Your Choice for Yourself)!

And I learned the Truth, that I am Kept on the Boat By His Power...(unlike you who teaches His power is not sufficient and a Converted man Can jump off the boat)!

Uh huh. And YOU could be given a hundred verses of Scriptural proof - and reject them ALL in favor of your own warped beliefs.

Still waiting for you to identify and reveal the Scriptural FACTS....who is it specifically you keep claiming WAS Converted and then fell away?

That is the sin of spiritual pride . . .

And? Now that you have made your finger pointing Claim....prove it ...
With my quoted word
Going against Gods Word
with Gods Word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay...my post is on This thread....page 9 #162 that should says it all.

Any comments?

What is "The Church" to you?

According to Scripture, Jesus prayed fervently for His Church to be united in everything as ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). If other congregations don't suit you - then how can that be considered "unity"?

I'm not picking on you, just curious . . .

 

[Taken]

That's a complete LIE.

LOL

MY

point all along is that the verses I presented show that a born again Christian CAN fall away and be lost forever.

No the Scriptures do not show a born again man can fall away.

It is YOUR EXPLANATION of Scripture that claims that, and is rejected.

YOU are the one who started asking me WHO these people "were".

Duh! I know that!

I never said anything about specific cases.

No kidding! WHY NOT?

I was showing you the Biblical truth that born again, converted people can walk away from God.

No. You quote a Scripture that says NOTHING about born again Converted men FALLING AWAY...

Then you ADD YOUR INTERPRETATION, "claiming" the Scripture is saying "what it does not say"...

IF what you CLAIM, by YOUR INTERPRETATION....is truth...WHY CAN YOU NOT PROVIDE ONE SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE OF THAT BEING THE CASE FOR ANY PARTICULAR MAN?

Sorry if the truth hurts . . .

I have the Lords TRUTH, and it is not a "sentence" as you teach or a "hurt" as you attempt to imply applies to me, but rather a JOY. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with YOUR natural truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't you just love all her CAPS

Actually, in reading both of your posts in one run on ..( somewhere the quote got messed up! )

I find I fall between the two of you....somethings in her post I do agree with, and some disagree with ... also with yours...some I do, some I don't.

I also believe as you know... John 10

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. "

BG
I believe in John 10 too.
As long as we are sheep of Jesus and harken to His word and hear his voice, we will be His. HE will never leave us.

And nothing or no one can pluck us out of His hand. God would not allow it.
We can walk away on our own however.

If we can't, it means we've lost our free will after salvation.

Do YOU believe we're lost our free will after salvation?
Do we stay with God because we love Him or do we stay with Him because He forces us to?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Per your usual...
You have been told.
You have been Shown in Scripture HOW and WHY a Converted man can Never Again be separated from God.

WRONG.

NOWHERE does Scripture tell us that we cannot walk away from God.
That's an unscriptural fairy tale that YOU chose to swallow.

Yes He is Faithful.
And NO He does not Lie, even when men like you teach, that His INDWELLING Power is Not sufficient To Keep a Converted man Faithful To Him Forever.

His Spirit IS sufficient to keep a cooperative servant faithful.
He will NOT stay where He is NOT wanted.

Ever wonder why God is absent from our schools??
He did "flee" - He was kicked out.

You can call me arrogant and incapable of Remaining Faithful to God FOREVER......

However your accusations Are False....
Precisely because you are ignorant of Gods Understanding and too stiffnecked and stubborn to put away what you have been taught And Accept the Lords Truth and Understanding.

I am forever Faithful.....
Pay Attention....
BECAUSE of His INDWELLING Power!!!

Sheesh!!
Stop trying to turn His Truth into a LIE.

No - you're only faithful as long as YOU choose and as long as YOU don't kick God OUT of your life.

YOUR god may force people to stay with Him - but NOT the God of the Bible.

If We? With what Power Can a man With He INDWELLING Power?
Go ahead....Continue your Ill learned message regarding the Converted.
...in Opposition of Christ's Word.

No man shall pluck them out of his hand..

Greater is He that is IN you than he that is in the world.....
Carry on falsely teaching .... otherwise.

No man CAN pluck us out of His hand.
Only WE can do that to ourselves.

God has been kick out of and pushed away from almost every public place in this country.
WHERE have YOU been??

You obviously DO not know the difference between arrogance AND shamelessly having full trust and faith in the Lord God.
I wasn't the first to get on the boat....
However I did Learn the Truth of HOW TO get on the boat...(unlike you who testified YOU did not make Your Choice for Yourself)!

And I learned the Truth, that I am Kept on the Boat By His Power...(unlike you who teaches His power is not sufficient and a Converted man Can jump off the boat)!

Nope.
God won't "keep" you ANY place that you don't want to be.

R*E*A*D your Bible . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL
No the Scriptures do not show a born again man can fall away.
It is YOUR EXPLANATION of Scripture that claims that, and is rejected.
Duh! I know that!
No kidding! WHY NOT?
No. You quote a Scripture that says NOTHING about born again Converted men FALLING AWAY...
Then you ADD YOUR INTERPRETATION, "claiming" the Scripture is saying "what it does not say"...
IF what you CLAIM, by YOUR INTERPRETATION....is truth...WHY CAN YOU NOT PROVIDE ONE SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE OF THAT BEING THE CASE FOR ANY PARTICULAR MAN?
I have the Lords TRUTH, and it is not a "sentence" as you teach or a "hurt" as you attempt to imply applies to me, but rather a JOY. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with YOUR natural truth.

Just in case you missed class the first time around . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the born agan believers not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition for born-again believers to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about born again CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Taken]

Do you have some scripture of Jesus saying that we just have to believe in Him and we will be saved FOREVER?

No, nor have I claimed that.
Perhaps you should direct that question to someone who has made that claim.

[QUOTE} Would this conflict with all the scripture I've posted? [/QUOTE]

Did you post Scriptures that APPLIES to Converted or Un-Converted men?

Because Scriptures that APPLY to Converted men WOULD NOT APPLY to UN-Converted men, and visa-versa.

Does the bible contradict itself?

No.

Please post scripture.

Per your opening question? No. I will not provide you with Scriptures for something I did not claim.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, nor have I claimed that.
Perhaps you should direct that question to someone who has made that claim.

Would this conflict with all the scripture I've posted?

Did you post Scriptures that APPLIES to Converted or Un-Converted men?

Because Scriptures that APPLY to Converted men WOULD NOT APPLY to UN-Converted men, and visa-versa.

No.

Per your opening question? No. I will not provide you with Scriptures for something I did not claim.

You won't provide scripture because it doesn't exist.

 

[Taken]

WRONG.

NOWHERE does Scripture tell us that we cannot walk away from God.

While you persist in revealing your hardened heart.....in a sad way it is verging on comical.

Funny how a CHILD can comprehend the Indwelling Spirit of God is MIGHTIER than a mans, and KEEPS a man FOREVER in Faith-FULLNESS to Him.

That's an unscriptural fairy tale that YOU chose to swallow.

Seems your Church doctrine has OMITTED, NO MAN can be plucked out of His Hand.

His Spirit IS sufficient to keep a cooperative servant faithful.

Funny. Seems your church doctrine has OMITTED teaching His servants Cooperate BY AND THROUGH HIS POWER!

But no matter; you can Pridefully take the credit for supposedly "keeping yourself faithful", by your own efforts. Lol

He will NOT stay where He is NOT wanted.

STAY? LOL. Funny, funny.

Seems your church doctrine also OMITS teaching; He is ALL KNOWING...HE DOES NOT CONVERT or Spiritually ENTER a man WHO WOULD desire to REJECT Him!

Ever wonder why God is absent from our schools??
He did "flee" - He was kicked out.

Thanks for yet another of your worldly renditions.

My children at times were in public schools, and NOT ONCE were they PROHIBITED from Praying or Speaking His Name!

No - you're only faithful as long as YOU choose and as long as YOU don't kick God OUT of your life.

Seems your church doctrine OMITTED teaching you, YOU can not KICK OUT WHAT YOU HAVE NOT GAINED!

YOUR

god may force people to stay with Him - but NOT the God of the Bible.

I MADE my FREEWILL Choice and Election.
How you have determined that IS FORCE, is corrupt reasoning.

However since YOUR CHOICE WAS "supposedly" made FOR YOU....YOU DID NOT ELECT Him yourself....I suppose your church teaching of rejecting Him would be MOST appropriate, since YOU NEVER Chose Him to begin with.

No

man CAN pluck us out of His hand.
Only WE can do that to ourselves.

When? When you become something OTHER THAN A MAN? LOL

God has been kick out of and pushed away from almost every public place in this country.
WHERE have YOU been??

God IS ALWAYS WITH ME and IN ME....NOT ONCE have I gone ANYWHERE that says, hey, if God is with you or in you.....NO ADMITTANCE!

You spend too much time being OF the World, instead of discovering HOW TO BE OF God.

Nope

.
God won't "keep" you ANY place that you don't want to be.

You forgot to EXPLAIN, EXACTLY how a man REJECTS GOD AFTER a Conversion?
Change his mind?

]
R*E*A*D your Bible . . .

Excellent advice, you should try that....

I am curious how NO MAN, excludes ANY man, as YOU DO. Lol

 

[Taken]

You won't provide scripture because it doesn't exist.

No need for you to make up lies.

You made a claim FOR ME, then asked me to provide supportative Scriptures.

Since you feel so inclined to SPEAK FOR ME...
YOU provide the supporting Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

No need for you to make up lies.

You made a claim FOR ME, then asked me to provide supportative Scriptures.

Since you feel so inclined to SPEAK FOR ME...
YOU provide the supporting Scripture.

You wrote a very long post with no scripture.
I asked for scriptural support to YOUR long post.
I'm not interested in your opinion,,,only in scriptural facts.

 

[Enoch111]

As long as we are sheep...

Have you ever seen or heard of a sheep turn into a goat overnight?

Sheep will always remain sheep, though some may stray.

 

[Helen]

What is "The Church" to you?

According to Scripture, Jesus prayed fervently for His Church to be united in everything as ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). If other congregations don't suit you - then how can that be considered "unity"?

I'm not picking on you, just curious . . .

The Church to me are the blood washed people of God...from every country or language. That is The Church.
Christ the head of His church.

Yes, Jesus prayed that they would be one. Ae we all one? No...pride still keeps us all apart. That is what I don't like denominations...pride keeps them apart. " They ( name of denomination) are right in doctrine" and every other denomination is wrong on some point.
Been there, done that...no longer interested ....but I do fellowship with people who are within each denomination....because collectively we are The Church.

And agree, there is not yet any unity in doctrine...but there is unity possible "in the Spirit". If it were not so, Paul could not have written:-
Eph 4-
3 "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. "

We can't "keep" something that we don't already have it ...
So we do have unity "in the Spirit"...we do not have unity in the world wide Church.
Sadly I believe it will come via much persecution...then maybe doctrine wont matter so much and pride laid aside.

 

[Helen]

Do YOU believe we're lost our free will after salvation?
Do we stay with God because we love Him or do we stay with Him because He forces us to?

I believe Love always wins.
I believe a wayward son is still a son.
As you know...I am not convinced that Judas was 'lost' like most people do.
I still say "maybe" he repented ...we do not know his heart.
We do not know 100% what went on between him and God in his last moments. I do not believe King Saul was 'lost' either...to me everyone is a "wait and see". We cannot possibly know.

 

[Nancy]

JMHO--- It has been decided, finally! OSAS means not thing to me any more---YAY! Who even cares? Either way-God is our Creator. And our ALL. So freeing to not even look at this thread again!!! Thank you Jesus this bothered me for a long time...He just now freed ANY NEED to know either way. I Love Him and through The Holy Spirit, I will strive to obey His 2 commandments. His mercy's are new everyday! Amen?

 

[Nancy]

The Church to me are the blood washed people of God...from every country or language. That is The Church.
Christ the head of His church.

Yes, Jesus prayed that they would be one. Ae we all one? No...pride still keeps us all apart. That is what I don't like denominations...pride keeps them apart. " They ( name of denomination) are right in doctrine" and every other denomination is wrong on some point.
Been there, done that...no longer interested ....but I do fellowship with people who are within each denomination....because collectively we are The Church.

And agree, there is not yet any unity in doctrine...but there is unity possible "in the Spirit". If it were not so, Paul could not have written:-
Eph 4-
3 "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. "

We can't "keep" something that we don't already have it ...
So we do have unity "in the Spirit"...we do not have unity in the world wide Church.
Sadly I believe it will come via much persecution...then maybe doctrine wont matter so much and pride laid aside.

We should all have a "Doctrine" burning party-and then, the only TRUE doctrine will make it through our fire pit!!!! Lol

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Church to me are the blood washed people of God...from every country or language. That is The Church.
Christ the head of His church.

Yes, Jesus prayed that they would be one. Ae we all one? No...pride still keeps us all apart. That is what I don't like denominations...pride keeps them apart. " They ( name of denomination) are right in doctrine" and every other denomination is wrong on some point.
Been there, done that...no longer interested ....but I do fellowship with people who are within each denomination....because collectively we are The Church.

And agree, there is not yet any unity in doctrine...but there is unity possible "in the Spirit". If it were not so, Paul could not have written:-
Eph 4-
3 "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. "

We can't "keep" something that we don't already have it ...
So we do have unity "in the Spirit"...we do not have unity in the world wide Church.
Sadly I believe it will come via much persecution...then maybe doctrine wont matter so much and pride laid aside.

Paul ALSO wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Phil. 2:2
"complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in FULL accord and of ONE mind."

Eph. 4:4-6
There is ONE body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the ONE hope that belongs to your call—ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Christ is not divided and neither can His Body be divided.