Outer Darkness

[Episkopos]

There should really be no confusion about fire, since fire associated with (1) cleansing fire, (2) fiery judgments of God's wrath, and (3) the Lake of Fire and brimstone (eternal Hell). Which reminds us that fire is both beneficial and destructive.

Everything has the 2 sides. Even grace. Grace can be deceitful too....for the one who refuses to obey the gospel...in spite of the evidence of the reality of God, together with the gifts of God.

 

[Nancy]

Outer darkness cannot be hell...since fire brings light. A lake of fire would light up the sky as if it were always day. No, outer darkness is anywhere where God isn't. It is to be cast away from His presence.

And this destiny is for the people of God who were not faithful...or who lived a lie.

God is light, so maybe the "fire" is just a burning thing? I see no light at all in Hell-separation from God-Light?

 

[Episkopos]

God is light, so maybe the "fire" is just a burning thing? I see no light at all in Hell-separation from God-Light?

Where God is is light. He abides in unapproachable light. Our God is a consuming fire. We have an example of what fire does in this world. Even the Sun is a big ball of fire.

Darkness is far from God. It is a place where light doesn't penetrate.

 

[Nancy]

Where God is is light. He abides in unapproachable light. Our God is a consuming fire. We have an example of what fire does in this world. Even the Sun is a big ball of fire.

Darkness is far from God. It is a place where light doesn't penetrate.

"Darkness is far from God. It is a place where light doesn't penetrate." Yes, and to me that IS hell...

 

[Episkopos]

"Darkness is far from God. It is a place where light doesn't penetrate." Yes, and to me that IS hell...

No, but possibly worse than hell...as in...the cities which will fare worse on judgment day than Sodom and Gomorrah. Light did not come to those cities...yet God destroyed them for their wickedness. But light did come to the people of God. We are talking specifically here of Capernaum and Bethsaida and the other towns that saw the light of Jesus yet was hostile to Him.

But such an end is not just the towns that Jesus visited in person. It is for all who practice lies, not loving the truth, and make light darkness and darkness light.

 

[Harvest 1874]

As Christians we don't hear too much about the "day of atonement". We see this as very Jewish. But not so. The day of atonement or Yom Kippour...has yet to take place. It is the judgment of the house of God. The Bema seat judgment.

Actually the antitypical Great Day of Atonement has already begun; in fact its first feature began over 2000 years ago when the “bullock” representing the sacrifice of our Lord was sacrificed upon the altar, and has since been followed by the sacrificing of the body of Christ represented in the “Lords goat”. (This part of the work however is not yet complete as the body of Christ, the Church as a whole has not yet finished sacrificing.)

As the consecrating of the antitypical priesthood includes all the members of the Body, and requires all of the Gospel age to complete it, so also with the sin-offering, or the sacrifice of atonement; it commenced with the Head (the “bullock”), and we (the “Lords goat”), the members of his Body, fill up the measure of the sufferings of Christ which are behind, and these sufferings require all of the Gospel age to complete them. (1 Pet 4:13; Rom 8:17; 2 Cor 1:7; 4:10; Phil 3:10; Col 1:24; 2 Tim 2:12; 1 Pet 5:1, 10)

“The `Day of Atonement,’ which in the type was but a twenty-four hour day, we see then in antitype to be the entire Gospel age.”

“The sacrificing feature of the Atonement Day (the “acceptable or receivable time” 2 Cor 6:2) will soon be over when the last member of the elect Body of Christ shall have made their calling and election sure and passed beyond the vail of death; that will be the end of the sacrificing, but it will not be the end of the atonement, because the Day of Atonement not only includes the day of sacrifice, but also the day of using that sacrifice in the work of blessing. In other words, the whole thousand years of Christ’s reign also belongs to this atonement work, because the construction of the word means at-one-ment …So then the Day of Atonement in the proper and fullest sense of the word is more than twenty-eight hundred years long.”

There are 2 groups of people...just as in the parable of the 10 virgins. Some are taken in...sacrificed. Some are rejected...into the wilderness.

Lev. 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

This is also a picture of Jesus Christ (Bar abba) and Jesus Barabbas (son of the father). Two men with identical names. One was sacrificed and the other released. Which one did the people choose? Whom would we choose if it meant having to be sacrificed...going to the cross ...or being free to live as we have always lived? Which is more popular? Which one is based on love of God and which is based on self-preservation?

So then if we retain our lives we will lose them...but if we sacrifice our lives for Christ...then we will find life (His life).

If we knew that it was possible to be sent into outer darkness...forever...how would that affect our walks?

“And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.” (Lev 16:7, 8)

“These two goats, taken from Israel and brought into the ‘court’, typified or represented all who coming from the world and accepting Jesus’ redemption fully consecrate their lives even unto death to God’s service during this gospel age (the “acceptable time”).

The people had no say in the matter of these two goats.

“The casting of lots to see which goat would be the ‘Lord’s Goat’, and which the ‘Scape Goat’, indicated that God had no choice as to which of those who present themselves shall win the prize. It shows that God does not arbitrarily determine which of the consecrated shall become partakers of the divine nature, and joint-heirs with Christ our Lord and which shall not. Those who suffer with him shall reign with him; those who succeed in avoiding the fiery trials by a compromising course miss also the joint-heirship in glory.” Rom 8:17

The Lord’s goat represents that portion of those “called in the one hope of their calling” (Eph 4:4), who are faithful in the matter of their sacrificial death as a part of the sin offering; but the scapegoat represents that portion of the same class, who because of the “fear of [this sacrificial] death are all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15)

Both of these classes of goats, will have a part in the atonement work, in bringing the world into complete harmony with God and his Law, when this `Day of Atonement,’ the Gospel age, is ended (that is the sacrificing part). But only the first class, `the Lord’s goat,’ who follow the Leader, are a part of the `sin offering,’ and ultimately members of his glorified Body.

“Some erroneously think of the two goats as representing two different classes from start to finish. Not so; they represent the finished classes only.

For a more thorough examination of the Great Day of Atonement please visit our blog post on the subject.

 

[Episkopos]

Actually the antitypical Great Day of Atonement has already begun; in fact its first feature began over 2000 years ago when the “bullock” representing the sacrifice of our Lord was sacrificed upon the altar, and has since been followed by the sacrificing of the body of Christ represented in the “Lords goat”. (This part of the work however is not yet complete as the body of Christ, the Church as a whole has not yet finished sacrificing.)

As the consecrating of the antitypical priesthood includes all the members of the Body, and requires all of the Gospel age to complete it, so also with the sin-offering, or the sacrifice of atonement; it commenced with the Head (the “bullock”), and we (the “Lords goat”), the members of his Body, fill up the measure of the sufferings of Christ which are behind, and these sufferings require all of the Gospel age to complete them. (1 Pet 4:13; Rom 8:17; 2 Cor 1:7; 4:10; Phil 3:10; Col 1:24; 2 Tim 2:12; 1 Pet 5:1, 10)

“The `Day of Atonement,’ which in the type was but a twenty-four hour day, we see then in antitype to be the entire Gospel age.”

“The sacrificing feature of the Atonement Day (the “acceptable or receivable time” 2 Cor 6:2) will soon be over when the last member of the elect Body of Christ shall have made their calling and election sure and passed beyond the vail of death; that will be the end of the sacrificing, but it will not be the end of the atonement, because the Day of Atonement not only includes the day of sacrifice, but also the day of using that sacrifice in the work of blessing. In other words, the whole thousand years of Christ’s reign also belongs to this atonement work, because the construction of the word means at-one-ment …So then the Day of Atonement in the proper and fullest sense of the word is more than twenty-eight hundred years long.”



“And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.” (Lev 16:7, 8)

“These two goats, taken from Israel and brought into the ‘court’, typified or represented all who coming from the world and accepting Jesus’ redemption fully consecrate their lives even unto death to God’s service during this gospel age (the “acceptable time”).

The people had no say in the matter of these two goats.

“The casting of lots to see which goat would be the ‘Lord’s Goat’, and which the ‘Scape Goat’, indicated that God had no choice as to which of those who present themselves shall win the prize. It shows that God does not arbitrarily determine which of the consecrated shall become partakers of the divine nature, and joint-heirs with Christ our Lord and which shall not. Those who suffer with him shall reign with him; those who succeed in avoiding the fiery trials by a compromising course miss also the joint-heirship in glory.” Rom 8:17

The Lord’s goat represents that portion of those “called in the one hope of their calling” (Eph 4:4), who are faithful in the matter of their sacrificial death as a part of the sin offering; but the scapegoat represents that portion of the same class, who because of the “fear of [this sacrificial] death are all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15)

Both of these classes of goats, will have a part in the atonement work, in bringing the world into complete harmony with God and his Law, when this `Day of Atonement,’ the Gospel age, is ended (that is the sacrificing part). But only the first class, `the Lord’s goat,’ who follow the Leader, are a part of the `sin offering,’ and ultimately members of his glorified Body.

“Some erroneously think of the two goats as representing two different classes from start to finish. Not so; they represent the finished classes only.

For a more thorough examination of the Great Day of Atonement please visit our blog post on the subject.

This is fine...but you are not saying anything here about outer darkness, wandering in the wilderness and the "escape" goat. (Azazel). Basically you are avoiding the topic with many words.

Looking forward to your comments on the subject of this thread.

 

[Episkopos]

Favour is indeed deceitful...it makes us think we have something...but that something so often seems to get in the way of the truth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The lake of fire indeed exists. It is not for the people of God. But eternal darkness, with it eternal wandering is indeed a judgment on the house of God. It is reserved for hypocrites and the like.

When Jesus says to those who did many wonders in His name ...."go away, I never knew you"...where do you think they go?

This is correct. Outer Darkness is largely reserved for the unfaithful who did not shine light as they were supposed to. Hence their judgment. But while the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness will indeed be two different places, they are both described as the scene of similar torments, presumably both in fire, because the same exact expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is used of both (Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 for the former. Matthew 24:51, Matthew 25:30 of the latter). Gnashing of teeth is a reference to experiencing physical torment.

 

[Episkopos]

This is correct. Outer Darkness is largely reserved for the unfaithful who did not shine light as they were supposed to. Hence their judgment. But while the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness will indeed be two different places, they are both described as the scene of similar torments, presumably both in fire, because the same exact expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is used of both (Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 for the former. Matthew 24:51, Matthew 25:30 of the latter). Gnashing of teeth is a reference to experiencing physical torment.

Just as their are different kinds of sins...so there are different kinds of torments.

 

[GodsGrace]

I find no one considers this eternal destiny in their calculations as to possible outcomes for humanity.
Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Wandering in the wilderness is nothing new...but into eternity?
Eternal darkness...or outer darkness... this is a destiny that Jesus spoke of.
Outer darkness is a place referred to three times in the Gospel of Matthew (8:12, 22:13, and 25:30) into which a person may be "cast out", and where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

I chose the red pill.

I agree ...
Unfortunately, most are just wandering around.
Yes, I guess Jesus did offer us the red pill, and He knew most would refuse it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Surprised? Judgment begins at the house of God...and it will be severe.

A person of God is going with God,,,not the outer darkness.
Those without God are going to the dark.

 

[Episkopos]

A person of God is going with God,,,not the outer darkness.
Those without God are going to the dark.

That's what the Bema seat judgment will bring to light.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's what the Bema seat judgment will bring to light.

I'm not very knowledgeable on this,,,,but I think the bema seat is only for the saved.
There is now no condemnation for those in Christ....

 

[Hidden In Him]

Just as their are different kinds of sins...so there are different kinds of torments.

You may not be the type to believe in heavenly visions, and if not that's fine. But the following is taken from Kathryn Baxter's account of being escorted through Hell by the Lord Jesus Christ. Much of this is symbolism. The "disk" that the angel throws is actually symbolic of the false church, which is depicted using identical symbolism elsewhere in the book. The 30-foot angel is likewise representative of the angels of God en masse. But the fire that is described as taking place in Outer Darkness is I believe quite literal here. I believe it references a place in outer darkness which will in essence be an extension of Hell, only it will be eternal, since Hell itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire eventually:

As we walked on through hell, Jesus and I came upon a very large and very dark man. He was enshrouded in darkness and had the appearance of an angel. He was holding something in his left hand. Jesus said, "This place is called outer darkness. "

I heard weeping and gnashing of teeth. Nowhere before had there been such utter hopelessness as I felt in this place. The angel that stood before us had no wings. He looked to be about thirty feet tall, and he knew exactly what he was doing. He had a large disk in his left hand and was turning slowly with this disk lifted up high as though he was getting ready to throw it.

There was a fire in the middle of the disk, and blackness on the outer edge. The angel held his hand beneath the disk and reached far back in order to get more leverage.

I wondered who this giant angel was and what he was about to do. Jesus knew my thoughts and said again, "This is outer darkness. Remember that my Word says, 'The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

"Lord," I said, "You mean your servants are here?"

"Yes," said Jesus, "servants that turned back after I called them. Servants who loved the world more than Me and went back to wallowing in the mire of sin. Servants that would not stand for the truth and for holiness. It is better that one never starts than to turn back after beginning to serve Me."

"Believe Me," Jesus said, "if you sin, you have an advocate with the Father. If you repent of your sins, I will be faithful to cleanse you of all unrighteousness. But if you will not repent, I will come in a time you think not, and you will be cut off with the unbelievers and cast into outer darkness."

I watched the dark angel as he cast the large disk far, far out into the darkness. "My Word means just what it says; they 'shall be cast into outer darkness.

And then, immediately, Jesus and I were in the air following this disk through space. We came to the outside of the disk and stood looking in.

There was a fire in the center of the disk, and people were swimming in and out, over and under the flaming waves. There were no demons or evil spirits here, only souls burning in a sea of fire.

Outside the disk was the blackest of darkness. Only the light from the flames in the disk illuminated the night air. In that light I saw people trying to swim to the edges of the disk. Some of them would almost reach the sides when a suction force from inside the disk would drag them back into the flames. I watched as their forms turned to skeletons with misty-gray souls. I knew then that this was just another part of Hell.

And then I saw, as in a vision, angels opening seals. Nations and kingdoms appeared to be locked beneath them. As the angels broke the seals, men and women, boys and girls marched straight into the flames.

I watched in ghastly fascination, wondering if I knew any of the fallen servants of the Lord who were marching past. I could not turn my head away from the sight of souls marching into the fire, and no one was trying to stop them. I cried, "Lord, please stop them before they reach the fire!"

But Jesus said, "He who has ears should hear. He who has eyes should see. My child, cry out against sin and evil. Tell my servants to be faithful and to call upon the name of the Lord. I am taking you through this awful place so that you can tell them about Hell."

Jesus continued, "Some will not believe you. Some will say God is too good to send men and women to Hell. But tell them My Word is true. Tell them that the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire." (Baxter, A Divine Revelation of Hell, P.116-120)

 

[faithfulness]

I agree ...
Unfortunately, most are just wandering around.
Yes, I guess Jesus did offer us the red pill, and He knew most would refuse it.

I failed to acknowledge that what I wrote above was copied from the intro to this thread.
Except for the red pill.
No plagiarism intended.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm not very knowledgeable on this,,,,but I think the bema seat is only for the saved.
There is now no condemnation for those in Christ....

For those who are IN Christ...yes. Again, the fire will reveal all.

 

[Episkopos]

You may not be the type to believe in heavenly visions, and if not that's fine. But the following is taken from Kathryn Baxter's account of being escorted through Hell by the Lord Jesus Christ. Much of this is symbolism. The "disk" that the angel throws is actually symbolic of the false church, which is depicted using identical symbolism elsewhere in the book. The 30-foot angel is likewise representative of the angels of God en masse. But the fire that is described as taking place in Outer Darkness is I believe quite literal here. I believe it references a place in outer darkness which will in essence be an extension of Hell, only it will be eternal, since Hell itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire eventually:

As we walked on through hell, Jesus and I came upon a very large and very dark man. He was enshrouded in darkness and had the appearance of an angel. He was holding something in his left hand. Jesus said, "This place is called outer darkness. "

I heard weeping and gnashing of teeth. Nowhere before had there been such utter hopelessness as I felt in this place. The angel that stood before us had no wings. He looked to be about thirty feet tall, and he knew exactly what he was doing. He had a large disk in his left hand and was turning slowly with this disk lifted up high as though he was getting ready to throw it.

There was a fire in the middle of the disk, and blackness on the outer edge. The angel held his hand beneath the disk and reached far back in order to get more leverage.

I wondered who this giant angel was and what he was about to do. Jesus knew my thoughts and said again, "This is outer darkness. Remember that my Word says, 'The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

"Lord," I said, "You mean your servants are here?"

"Yes," said Jesus, "servants that turned back after I called them. Servants who loved the world more than Me and went back to wallowing in the mire of sin. Servants that would not stand for the truth and for holiness. It is better that one never starts than to turn back after beginning to serve Me."

"Believe Me," Jesus said, "if you sin, you have an advocate with the Father. If you repent of your sins, I will be faithful to cleanse you of all unrighteousness. But if you will not repent, I will come in a time you think not, and you will be cut off with the unbelievers and cast into outer darkness."

I watched the dark angel as he cast the large disk far, far out into the darkness. "My Word means just what it says; they 'shall be cast into outer darkness.

And then, immediately, Jesus and I were in the air following this disk through space. We came to the outside of the disk and stood looking in.

There was a fire in the center of the disk, and people were swimming in and out, over and under the flaming waves. There were no demons or evil spirits here, only souls burning in a sea of fire.

Outside the disk was the blackest of darkness. Only the light from the flames in the disk illuminated the night air. In that light I saw people trying to swim to the edges of the disk. Some of them would almost reach the sides when a suction force from inside the disk would drag them back into the flames. I watched as their forms turned to skeletons with misty-gray souls. I knew then that this was just another part of Hell.

And then I saw, as in a vision, angels opening seals. Nations and kingdoms appeared to be locked beneath them. As the angels broke the seals, men and women, boys and girls marched straight into the flames.

I watched in ghastly fascination, wondering if I knew any of the fallen servants of the Lord who were marching past. I could not turn my head away from the sight of souls marching into the fire, and no one was trying to stop them. I cried, "Lord, please stop them before they reach the fire!"

But Jesus said, "He who has ears should hear. He who has eyes should see. My child, cry out against sin and evil. Tell my servants to be faithful and to call upon the name of the Lord. I am taking you through this awful place so that you can tell them about Hell."

Jesus continued, "Some will not believe you. Some will say God is too good to send men and women to Hell. But tell them My Word is true. Tell them that the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire." (Baxter, A Divine Revelation of Hell, P.116-120)

i actually had a vision about this exact thing. I mean outer darkness.

 

[GodsGrace]

For those who are IN Christ...yes. Again, the fire will reveal all.

What fire?
I'm not expecting to see any fire.
Are you Catholic? Sounds like purgatory.
Except they don't believe there is fire there either.

 

[Hidden In Him]

i actually had a vision about this exact thing. I mean outer darkness.

Wow! Sounds interesting. Is it something you've shared publicly before?