Outer Darkness

[faithfulness]

1. 
   Episkopos Well-Known Member
   The great lie of our time lies in the gospel of Barabbas who is pardoned on a technicality...thus being saved IN his sins. In other words he is a saved sinner.
   
   But we have a choice to make to follow after Jesus Barabbas...or Jesus barABBA...these seem the same at first glance. But when we have a choice to live in the flesh and yet be saved compared with having to die to the flesh to be saved...well the choice is an easy one for the masses!
   
   The crowd yells out...Free Barabbas!!!!! So many identify with this gospel of a general amnesty and forgiveness for their crimes. But they have been decived as to the nature of their salvation. So most of modern Christianity is built upon THIS offer to the people. They will follow Barabbas because the deal seems so much sweeter to the flesh. This is the true mystery of the gospel and the great delusion of our time.
   
   But those who love God will go through the death of the cross in order to walk in the Spirit and not sin. Not because they love to die...but because that is where Jesus, the true Son of the Father (Bar ABBA) is.
   
   Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.
   
   נתהלך באור
   Walk in the Light!
   Episkopos, Apr 8, 2012
   
   
   
   
   

 

[Jay Ross]

Although we can agree with your interpretation of what being casts into "outer darkness" implies, we can in no way accept your interpretation of the parables you have mentioned, it is self-evident that you are sorely confused. I would suggest more study.

You remind me of the saying, "After much pride comes a fall." Be careful in your pride, Harvest 1974, much previous study does not always bring the light of knowledge of God.

As for me, I am still learning as various passages are highlighted to me to study. This has been just one example of a passage being reconsidered by myself when after years of acceptance of the "traditionally" accepted understanding began not to gel within the context of God's message to mankind.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

So by putting Hell in quotes, I assume you do regard it as metaphorical, yes?

"Hell" is our way of understanding of being in a place where there is no knowledge of God. I have read other people's commentary that suggests the second death is a complete and utter separation from God for all of eternity and their parables to help describe this state and difference from "Heaven."

Shalom

 

[Hidden In Him]

"Hell" is our way of understanding of being in a place where there is no knowledge of God. I have read other people's commentary that suggests the second death is a complete and utter separation from God for all of eternity and their parables to help describe this state and difference from "Heaven."

Shalom

Ok. It is indeed a separation from God, of sorts. That I do agree with. Only I'd caution you about teaching against a literal Hell and literal torment, not because of this discussion or anything, but simply for your own sake. It's an extremely important doctrine to God, as is clear from how many visions He is now giving to humanity of its reality. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and when we teach against the existence of a literal Hell we undermine it.

Not trying to be divisive or anything. Just trying to give you a bit of friendly advice that what people teach on this subject is of especial importance to God.

Blessings, and Peace.

 

[Naomi25]

Without wanting to get into a "heated" debate over it (pun intended), I think the case is too strong for literal fire. For starters, the wording in the Greek in Revelation 19:20 is literally, "a lake of fire burning with sulphur/brimstone," which is strongly reminiscent of Sodom and Gomorrah's judgment, and not by coincidence. The two are/will be in essentially the same location - the Dead Sea region - a region rich in sulphur. That the fires of Sodom's judgment were still smoldering during Jude's time is evident in how he used the present tense in stating Sodom and Gomorrah "are [presently] set forth as an example, undergoing the judgment of everlasting fire" (Jude 1:7). I could give you a number of quotes from contemporaries of Jude who were saying the same thing, including Josephus.

Anyway, for the NT to use such language of Sodom, whose fires were clearly not "symbolic," it would be rather problematic IMO to spiritualize the meaning into being merely figurative when the literal element of sulphur is mentioned, and NT writers (as well as even Greek writers from the same time period) were mentioning how the fires of Sodom were everlasting in the literal sense, seeing as how Sodom's judgment had taken place 1,600 years earlier.

I don't think it's worth a heated debate, or even an unheated one!! It was just a thought I felt I'd toss in. I'm not committed to it, and I certainly don't stand on it, or believe it's worth friction over! I haven't even decided if I buy it myself. I think for most of my life I have considered hell to be both, to be honest. I just think when it comes to things like this...especially when we are debating ideas around it, it doesn't hurt to look at things from all angles. Often times we end up circling back to where we began, and that's for a reason. But it's good to take that journey and actually plot out our understanding and reasons, rather than just holding a position just because we always have...don't you think?

 

[Harvest 1874]

Ok. It is indeed a separation from God, of sorts. That I do agree with. Only I'd caution you about teaching against a literal Hell and literal torment, not because of this discussion or anything, but simply for your own sake. It's an extremely important doctrine to God, as is clear from how many visions He is now giving to humanity of its reality. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and when we teach against the existence of a literal Hell we undermine it.

Not trying to be divisive or anything. Just trying to give you a bit of friendly advice that what people teach on this subject is of especial importance to God.

Blessings, and Peace.

You are correct on this last it is important to God that you do not blaspheme his good name and character by ascribing to him this blasphemous doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin, a doctrine contrived and taught both by men and devils. See A Great Blasphemy for more on this.

 

[Naomi25]

Hell is not a subject for this thread. But "our worm" is not us. Hell is the 2nd death....not the 2nd torment.

I didn't really link it in when I talked about it, but my point was sort of that the "outer Darkness" that this thread IS discussing, we would call 'hell'.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; - 2 Peter 2:4

 

[faithfulness]

Episkopos Well-Known Member
Greetings to all. I think that most Christians do not fear hell as a possible outcome for their choices in life.....after all...didn't they already make the right choice by deciding to believe in Jesus Christ?

Now, I grant that there is merit to this lack of fear since the bible says that those who believe in Jesus will never die.

But the biblical position holds out another possibility to those who believe but do not obey...and that is to be rejected from the kingdom into an eternal darkness...and this in a "saved" condition.

Can we ignore the warnings of Jesus Christ that He will reject us unless we live IN Him? In holiness!!!! We have been warned that without holiness we shall NOT see God. We have been warned to DO the commandments of Christ or else He will send us away. We have been warned that He will spit us out of His mouth unless we DO what pleases Him.

I think that we moderns have a far too superficial view on things eternal. We tend to strain out all the difficult truth in order to swallow what goes down easier for the unregenerate man. In other words we tend towards slackness when it comes to the high calling in Christ.

We are saved by believing INTO Jesus Christ...INTO HIS holiness and light. The promise of a slack believer's continuing carnality...is rejection into outer darkness.

Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
Episkopos, Jan 15, 2013

I hope this search/copy/paste is acceptable with you.
Proverbs 9:10
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

 

[Episkopos]

I didn't really link it in when I talked about it, but my point was sort of that the "outer Darkness" that this thread IS discussing, we would call 'hell'.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; - 2 Peter 2:4

The bible speaks of an eternal darkness after judgment...as well.

 

[Jay Ross]

I didn't really link it in when I talked about it, but my point was sort of that the "outer Darkness" that this thread IS discussing, we would call 'hell'.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; - 2 Peter 2:4

If you consider the Greek word translated as "cast them into hell" G:5020, ταρταρώσας, which only appears once n the New testament, is translated on the BibleHub page: - <2 Peter 2:4 Interlinear: For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,>, as "having cast [them] to the deepest abyss," which is in line with Isaiah 24:21-22

Isaiah 24:21-22

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
​

This also fits with Rev 20: 1-3 where we are told that Satan is locked up in the Bottomless Pit for a period of 1,000 years.

Another Greek Root, which is embedded into three Greek words is G:1067 <Strong's Greek: 1067. γέεννα (geenna) -- Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly> Where γέενναν is found in the following 8 verses: - Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 18:9, Mark 9:43, 9:45, 9:47, Luke 12:5, γεέννῃ, is found in verse Matthew 10:28 and γεέννης is found in the following 3 verses: - Matthew 23:15, 23:33, James 3:6.

Simply doing a search for the word "hell" in a particular English translation can cause the wrong conclusion with respect to the verses found.

We need to be a little more carefull in our examination/study of the scriptures.

Shalom

 

[Hidden In Him]

You are correct on this last it is important to God that you do not blaspheme his good name and character by ascribing to him this blasphemous doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin, a doctrine contrived and taught both by men and devils. See A Great Blasphemy for more on this.

I fear for Seklemian's soul for teaching that, and I fear for yours. To say what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught was contrived by devils is a very evil thing to do. You will be held accountable for it. You are serving Satan's purposes in professing Christ to be a servant of devils, either ignorantly or with full knowledge. I suggest you not do so, because the Lord will not take this sin lightly.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I don't think it's worth a heated debate, or even an unheated one!! It was just a thought I felt I'd toss in. I'm not committed to it, and I certainly don't stand on it, or believe it's worth friction over! I haven't even decided if I buy it myself. I think for most of my life I have considered hell to be both, to be honest. I just think when it comes to things like this...especially when we are debating ideas around it, it doesn't hurt to look at things from all angles. Often times we end up circling back to where we began, and that's for a reason. But it's good to take that journey and actually plot out our understanding and reasons, rather than just holding a position just because we always have...don't you think?

Yes, except when it comes to Post #66 (aptly numbered). It is an evil thing to attribute evil to the Lord. This is the attitude of Satanists towards the True and Living God, and to see it being parroted by those supposedly professing Christ is deeply disturbing.

 

[Episkopos]

I think we need to sort out where people after death go to before judgment and after judgment.

 

[ScottA]

I thought to start this thread since I find no one considers this eternal destiny in their calculations as to possible outcomes for humanity.

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Wandering in the wilderness is nothing new...but into eternity?

Eternal darkness...or outer darkness... this is a destiny that Jesus spoke of.

Outer darkness is a place referred to three times in the Gospel of Matthew (8:12, 22:13, and 25:30) into which a person may be "cast out", and where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Before I go into more detail...I leave it open for others to comment on this subject. it isn't something discussed very much if at all. But it should be.

There is a reason why being with God or Christ is referred to as "in" Christ or God, whom is Light...for without, is indeed darkness.

 

[Enoch111]

I think we need to sort out where people after death go to before judgment and after judgment.

1. The reason why Christ made the preaching of the Gospel to every creature extremely critical is that a person's response to the Gospel determines his or her eternal destiny. So the "judgment" is made already while the person is alive.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16)

2. Those who have not been saved by grace through faith in this life will go to Hades. That is already the beginning of judgment, since Hades is now exclusively a place of torment. Hebrew 9:27.

3. Those who died without Christ will be further judged at the Great White Throne. The souls and spirits of those in Hades will receive bodies at the resurrection of the unjust, and then after this judgment, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:10-15.

4. All of this tells us that there are no second chances after death, and that it is extremely critical that everyone hear the Gospel and obey the Gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

"Enoch111, post: 435417, member: 7853"]1. The reason why Christ made the preaching of the Gospel to every creature extremely critical is that a person's response to the Gospel determines his or her eternal destiny. So the "judgment" is made already while the person is alive.

I agree.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16)

2. Those who have not been saved by grace through faith in this life will go to Hades. That is already the beginning of judgment, since Hades is now exclusively a place of torment. Hebrew 9:27.

The ones who are condemned are they who have rejected the gospel...not they who are ignorant of it.

3. Those who died without Christ will be further judged at the Great White Throne. The souls and spirits of those in Hades will receive bodies at the resurrection of the unjust, and then after this judgment, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:10-15.

Actually it has to do with being written in the book of life. Those who are written in the book will live in the saved nations...and they who are not written therein are cast into the lake of fire.

4. All of this tells us that there are no second chances after death, and that it is extremely critical that everyone hear the Gospel and obey the Gospel.

Not everyone will hear the gospel ... Jesus says...many...not all. There is no need for a second chance after death because we will be judged by our works...or what we have done with what we have been given.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I fear for Seklemian's soul for teaching that, and I fear for yours. To say what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught was contrived by devils is a very evil thing to do. You will be held accountable for it. You are serving Satan's purposes in professing Christ to be a servant of devils, either ignorantly or with full knowledge. I suggest you not do so, because the Lord will not take this sin lightly.

And you will be held accountable for your blasphemy of God's good character, and for all those would might have been led to Christ, but for your teaching this blasphemous doctrine were turn aside.

 

[APAK]

Episkopos Well-Known Member
Greetings to all. I think that most Christians do not fear hell as a possible outcome for their choices in life.....after all...didn't they already make the right choice by deciding to believe in Jesus Christ?

Now, I grant that there is merit to this lack of fear since the bible says that those who believe in Jesus will never die.

But the biblical position holds out another possibility to those who believe but do not obey...and that is to be rejected from the kingdom into an eternal darkness...and this in a "saved" condition.

Can we ignore the warnings of Jesus Christ that He will reject us unless we live IN Him? In holiness!!!! We have been warned that without holiness we shall NOT see God. We have been warned to DO the commandments of Christ or else He will send us away. We have been warned that He will spit us out of His mouth unless we DO what pleases Him.

I think that we moderns have a far too superficial view on things eternal. We tend to strain out all the difficult truth in order to swallow what goes down easier for the unregenerate man. In other words we tend towards slackness when it comes to the high calling in Christ.

We are saved by believing INTO Jesus Christ...INTO HIS holiness and light. The promise of a slack believer's continuing carnality...is rejection into outer darkness.

Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
Episkopos, Jan 15, 2013

I hope this search/copy/paste is acceptable with you.
Proverbs 9:10
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

faithfulness: Can you supply scripture to support your statements when you say, “But the biblical position holds out another possibility to those who believe but do not obey...and that is to be rejected from the kingdom into an eternal darkness...and this in a "saved" condition.”

Who are the ones that do not obey God? Can you provide any examples? And what is it they disobey? Again, with examples? And why do you think that a ‘saved’ person refuses to obey God?


Thank you,



APAK

 

[Harvest 1874]

I fear for Seklemian's soul for teaching that, and I fear for yours. To say what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught was contrived by devils is a very evil thing to do. You will be held accountable for it. You are serving Satan's purposes in professing Christ to be a servant of devils, either ignorantly or with full knowledge. I suggest you not do so, because the Lord will not take this sin lightly.

No we do not say that the hell our Lord taught is an evil thing, we say the hell which you teach is an evil thing contrived by men and devils.

 

[Episkopos]

faithfulness: Can you supply scripture to support your statements when you say, “But the biblical position holds out another possibility to those who believe but do not obey...and that is to be rejected from the kingdom into an eternal darkness...and this in a "saved" condition.”

Who are the ones that do not obey God? Can you provide any examples? And what is it they disobey? Again, with examples? And why do you think that a ‘saved’ person refuses to obey God?


Thank you,



APAK

In a great house there are vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour. There are the wise and the foolish. There are the humble and the proud.

If you look throughout the bible history you will always see this pairing. It begins with Cain and Abel...then Jacob and Esau.

Jesus describes the ones who say "Lord, Lord"....but act with iniquity.

There are too many examples...the wicked servant that buries his talent. The foolish virgins....the church of Laodicea who are spit out of Christ's mouth.

Paul warns us that God didn't spare the original people of God...and that it is very possible He not spare us either unless we bear the right fruit. Paul himself feared that he would be disqualified...cut-off.

We tend to read the bible in a way that supports self-interest. But does avoiding the truth make it go away?

So there is a different way of reading the bible where things come into balance. To whom much is given MORE is required. Our judgment will be a hard one...considering what we claim for ourselves.