Eternal Security

[Phoneman777]

Eternal security is real.
It's what makes Christianity alive!
When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we know we are with God and all his promises are ours.

Romans 11:29-32;
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

What this says is all we have to do is receive it and we have eternal security.
But don't kid yourself.
One who is truly filled with the Spirit of God will never give up their eternal security.

We receive this eternal security because of God's mercy on us.
Ever hear of the Mercy Seat of Christ?
If we believe, we will be there.

Praise the Lord!

Nicely put, especially the part about Spirit filled Christians will "never give up" that security. We're only secure by our own recognizance - which dispels the myth of OSAS. Romans says the grafted-in branches (born-again believers) can be broken off through rebellion, but even then they have hope to be grafted in "again" through repentance. Jesus said "abide in the Vine" lest we meet with fire. Every day is a new day for us to determine to stay grafted in and "endure to the end" for it is only by that "the same shall be saved".

OSAS doesn't require the endurance of anything - just a sincere "sinner's prayer" that one can turn his back on later and live for the devil, yet still retain in their wallet a punched ticket for that celestial train ride to heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

Go back to chapter 4 and tell me what covenant is referred to as Ishmael. And what does this mean referring that covenant:

30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

I checked....I thought I answered this in 293??
Abraham's promise was promulgated through Isaac.
What are you getting at?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I checked....I thought I answered this in 293??
Abraham's promise was promulgated through Isaac.
What are you getting at?

I was responding to your statement "The New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant BETTER, it does not replace it."

Galatians 4 points out that indeed it does replace it by casting it out.

Do you not agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

I was responding to your statement "The New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant BETTER, it does not replace it."

Galatians 4 points out that indeed it does replace it by casting it out.

Do you not agree?

Oh.
No. I don't agree.
There is much to study re the covenants. I know VERY LITTLE, but I have been through some of them and I know for sure none of the covenants get abolished, only changed or added to or made better.

I believe I even stated HOW the New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant better.

Could you read 293 and tell me what you don't agree about it?
It's like the Trinity...there's more to it than what is in the bible.

IF you're interested...otherwise it's OK.

 

[GodsGrace]

The wages of sin is death. If Christ has NOT paid for the sins of an individual then he is doomed to go to hell, without a choice in the matter because he is accountable for his sins.

On the other hand, an individual elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, he too has no choice in the matter because God is the ONLY ONE who can save!

Jesus said: “Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...” (John 15:16). Same idea as Romans 3.

If man has a free will as many believe, then he is the king maker and does NOT need God to save him!!!

To God Be The Glory

@1stCenturyLady has a great point.

One of the big problems with calvinism is that a believer can never be sure of his salvation. If YOU didn't respond to God with a YES and also choose HIIM, how could you possibly be sure you will be saved to the end? How can you possibly know you will persevere?

You can't.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was responding to your statement "The New Covenant makes the Mosaic Covenant BETTER, it does not replace it."

Galatians 4 points out that indeed it does replace it by casting it out.

Do you not agree?

Hi,
I just read chapter 4 in Galatians.
As I said in post 293, it refers to the Mosaic and the New Covenants.
It speaks of Abraham's seed, the promise to make him a Father of Many Nations and that would be the New Covenant. Ishmael represents the Mosaic Covenant, the Israelites being slaves --- WE being children of God by the act of being grafted in. Romans 11.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I checked....I thought I answered this in 293??
Abraham's promise was promulgated through Isaac.
What are you getting at?

I'm answering your latest question here. And no, I do not agree the Old Covenant was merely added to, though it is a good reference. Do you sacrifice? Do you keep the sign of the Covenant, the Sabbath (on Saturday), or the feast days? Do you eat pork? All those were also done away with.

The Old Covenant was a "ministry of death." Also of "condemnation."That has been done away with. Here are a couple passages I would like you to ponder. (And I'll be back later)

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Now do you see how Paul could say that covenant of Ishmael was cast away? How else could he say that?

30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hi,
I just read chapter 4 in Galatians.
As I said in post 293, it refers to the Mosaic and the New Covenants.
It speaks of Abraham's seed, the promise to make him a Father of Many Nations and that would be the New Covenant. Ishmael represents the Mosaic Covenant, the Israelites being slaves --- WE being children of God by the act of being grafted in. Romans 11.

I'll slip this in before I go to church. Exodus 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the COVENANT, the Ten Commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm answering your latest question here. And no, I do not agree the Old Covenant was merely added to, though it is a good reference. Do you sacrifice? Do you keep the sign of the Covenant, the Sabbath (on Saturday), or the feast days? Do you eat pork? All those were also done away with.

The Old Covenant was a "ministry of death." Also of "condemnation."That has been done away with. Here are a couple passages I would like you to ponder. (And I'll be back later)

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Now do you see how Paul could say that covenant of Ishmael was cast away? How else could he say that?

30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

You won't get an argument from me on the above!
I agree with all of it.

The problem is that you're speaking about the Law and Grace and not the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

When God made the Covenant with Moses, the 10 Commandments were included in the Covenant. The Israeli's agreed to this Covenant, it was conditional of their agreeing to follow the LAWS of God. They were all dead by the time they got to the promised land...in all that time they could not keep the commandments. They had made the golden calf even before Moses could come back down from the mountain. They did not keep their part of the covenant, which was to obey the commandments. This was a conditional covenant...some were, but not all.

The sign of this covenant was the Sabbath and that we were to keep it. I believe you mentioned this. This was a Sovereign-Vassal Covenant. This was a relationship which promised protection from the Sovereign if the vassal obeyed and was faithful to him.

It was not possible to keep the Mosaic Covenants...There was no power.

As a last resort, God sent His only Son, Jesus to establish the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is a unilateral covenant...God will see it through whether or not we can keep our part of the bargain. The only act we have to do is be a part of the N.C. and Jesus will handle the rest. The sign is the Eucharist --- some theologians believe it is baptism.

Jesus died for us and this love we have for Jesus makes us WANT to keep the commandments...BUT the commandments, which were in the Mosaic Covenant, must be kept...so in that way the N.C. has been made better without abolishing the M.C. We now have the Holy Spirit to dwell within us.

Jesus said in Mathew 5:17 that He did not come to abolish the law -- He meant the moral law, the civil and ceremonial laws were abolished since many were man-made---but the moral law is from God and will never be abolished.

I looked for a link and found this one which is very concise and good.
I did't real all of it so please don't hold me to everything it says....
I'm posting it for the discussion at hand...does the New C abolish the Mosaic C.

Old Covenant abolished by New Covenant? Part I

Here's an excerpt:

As our focus is on this Mosaic Covenant, and whether it is done away with, let us look at some important facts about this Covenant before we make our conclusions and find answers for any of the persisting misunderstandings.

• The Mosaic Covenant is called an Everlasting Covenant and God says that He will not break His Covenant (Judg 2:1, Lev 26:44, Psa 89:34, 105:8-10, 111:7-9, 1Chr 16:15-17, Deu 5:29, 12:28)
• The Mosaic Covenant was written with the finger of God (Deut 4:13) (Exo 31:18, 32:16)
• The Mosaic Covenant was made with all 12 Tribes of Israel (Exo 19:5,6, 24:4)
• The Mosaic Covenant was there for 3 reasons.
  1) It would bless the person who obeyed (Deut 11:26-28)
  2) It would curse the person who disobeyed (Deut 11:26-28)
  3) It would show right from wrong, sin from righteousness (Rom 7:7)
• The Ten Commandments are the conditions, and part and parcel of the Mosaic Covenant

If the Old Covenant (Mosaic Covenant) is abolished after Yeshua, then we can no longer have the 10 Commandments. Jesus himself said we cannot break the least of the commandments, and that not the minutest detail will pass from it as long as heaven and earth exists (Mat 5:18,19).

The questions arise when you read some of the epistles of Paul, The Book of Hebrews and some verses in the Gospels. Paul and other writers of the “New Testament” seem to be saying that the Law and the Old Covenant is done away with, in some places.

We have a serious problem with our Bible if there are contradictions in the Scriptures. One verse cannot disagree with another. One author cannot disagree with another Author. All Scripture has to be in perfect harmony, as our God is not a God of Chaos, but of perfect order and peace.

As we saw earlier, The Mosaic Covenant as well as the New Covenant mentioned in Jer 31 & Heb 8 are both Everlasting Covenants. So how can one abolish the other? The New Covenant could be better understood as a “Renewed” Covenant. One does not abolish the other, but the “Older Covenant” is renewed by the “New Covenant”. This renewal happened by the shedding of the blood of Yeshua. If the Old Covenant was taken away, there would no longer be any Commandments. We would no longer need to adhere to God’s Laws, which mean there would be no yard stick for judgement. All of us will receive judgement at the end of time, according to Scripture. And God will not judge by our standards, but His own. If we were free from God’s Commandments, to do as each of us see fit, how would the righteous judge be able to judge us?

 

[Episkopos]

I agree with your second paragraph.

Your first paragraph is not right and we've been through this before.
I even listed which covenants did not require a two-way agreement and/or performance.

I had suggested that you study the 8 most important covenants a little.
You didn't do this and are still making incorrect statements.

You really should....

Our concern is with the NC. And that covenant is conditional.

 

[Episkopos]

You won't get an argument from me on the above!
I agree with all of it.

The problem is that you're speaking about the Law and Grace and not the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

When God made the Covenant with Moses, the 10 Commandments were included in the Covenant. The Israeli's agreed to this Covenant, it was conditional of their agreeing to follow the LAWS of God. They were all dead by the time they got to the promised land...in all that time they could not keep the commandments. They had made the golden calf even before Moses could come back down from the mountain. They did not keep their part of the covenant, which was to obey the commandments. This was a conditional covenant...some were, but not all.

The sign of this covenant was the Sabbath and that we were to keep it. I believe you mentioned this. This was a Sovereign-Vassal Covenant. This was a relationship which promised protection from the Sovereign if the vassal obeyed and was faithful to him.

It was not possible to keep the Mosaic Covenants...There was no power.

As a last resort, God sent His only Son, Jesus to establish the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is a unilateral covenant...God will see it through whether or not we can keep our part of the bargain. The only act we have to do is be a part of the N.C. and Jesus will handle the rest. The sign is the Eucharist --- some theologians believe it is baptism.

Jesus died for us and this love we have for Jesus makes us WANT to keep the commandments...BUT the commandments, which were in the Mosaic Covenant, must be kept...so in that way the N.C. has been made better without abolishing the M.C. We now have the Holy Spirit to dwell within us.

Jesus said in Mathew 5:17 that He did not come to abolish the law -- He meant the moral law, the civil and ceremonial laws were abolished since many were man-made---but the moral law is from God and will never be abolished.

I looked for a link and found this one which is very concise and good.
I did't real all of it so please don't hold me to everything it says....
I'm posting it for the discussion at hand...does the New C abolish the Mosaic C.

Old Covenant abolished by New Covenant? Part I

Here's an excerpt:

As our focus is on this Mosaic Covenant, and whether it is done away with, let us look at some important facts about this Covenant before we make our conclusions and find answers for any of the persisting misunderstandings.

• The Mosaic Covenant is called an Everlasting Covenant and God says that He will not break His Covenant (Judg 2:1, Lev 26:44, Psa 89:34, 105:8-10, 111:7-9, 1Chr 16:15-17, Deu 5:29, 12:28)
• The Mosaic Covenant was written with the finger of God (Deut 4:13) (Exo 31:18, 32:16)
• The Mosaic Covenant was made with all 12 Tribes of Israel (Exo 19:5,6, 24:4)
• The Mosaic Covenant was there for 3 reasons.
  1) It would bless the person who obeyed (Deut 11:26-28)
  2) It would curse the person who disobeyed (Deut 11:26-28)
  3) It would show right from wrong, sin from righteousness (Rom 7:7)
• The Ten Commandments are the conditions, and part and parcel of the Mosaic Covenant

If the Old Covenant (Mosaic Covenant) is abolished after Yeshua, then we can no longer have the 10 Commandments. Jesus himself said we cannot break the least of the commandments, and that not the minutest detail will pass from it as long as heaven and earth exists (Mat 5:18,19).

The questions arise when you read some of the epistles of Paul, The Book of Hebrews and some verses in the Gospels. Paul and other writers of the “New Testament” seem to be saying that the Law and the Old Covenant is done away with, in some places.

We have a serious problem with our Bible if there are contradictions in the Scriptures. One verse cannot disagree with another. One author cannot disagree with another Author. All Scripture has to be in perfect harmony, as our God is not a God of Chaos, but of perfect order and peace.

As we saw earlier, The Mosaic Covenant as well as the New Covenant mentioned in Jer 31 & Heb 8 are both Everlasting Covenants. So how can one abolish the other? The New Covenant could be better understood as a “Renewed” Covenant. One does not abolish the other, but the “Older Covenant” is renewed by the “New Covenant”. This renewal happened by the shedding of the blood of Yeshua. If the Old Covenant was taken away, there would no longer be any Commandments. We would no longer need to adhere to God’s Laws, which mean there would be no yard stick for judgement. All of us will receive judgement at the end of time, according to Scripture. And God will not judge by our standards, but His own. If we were free from God’s Commandments, to do as each of us see fit, how would the righteous judge be able to judge us?

The New Covenant is based on the law of faith. A faith that enters into grace...which is the power over sin, the world and the devi;. So then the law of sin is based on actual connection to God. With that connection comes the knowledge of God leading to character...and the full stature of Christ. We will be judged against that standard.

If we don't produce holy fruit...we will be rejected....meaning we have not made the right connection. That means the NC is indeed conditional. It depends on faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Also...the great condition of the NC is faithfulness. If we are not faithful to Him...then He will reject us.

 

[faithfulness]

The New Covenant is based on the law of faith. A faith that enters into grace...which is the power over sin, the world and the devi;. So then the law of sin is based on actual connection to God. With that connection comes the knowledge of God leading to character...and the full stature of Christ. We will be judged against that standard.

If we don't produce holy fruit...we will be rejected....meaning we have not made the right connection. That means the NC is indeed conditional. It depends on faith.

…So then the law of faith is based on actual connection to God.

 

[gadar perets]

I agree Christians do not abide by some of these laws, but why are you accusing Christians of bestiality? I neither am cruel to animals, nor have sex with them. That seems a bit outrageous.

I wasn't accusing Christians of bestiality. I was simply listing commands that should still be obeyed and not taught that they are abolished.

 

[Episkopos]

…So then the law of faith is based on actual connection to God.

Yes. That connection has different levels...from hearing to perceiving to seeing. All by faith. That is the high calling in Christ...so that we can learn to be as we are in the Spirit...but all the time. We learn to walk in His love. This is holiness.

If this is too difficult for us...then we should at least be faithful with what God has given to us. This is righteousness.

In both cases we are to remain faithful till the end. Holiness is to be "backed up" with righteousness...that we have learned and added to our faith.

 

[gadar perets]

No, I don't agree with this conclusion.

So be it. I know it to be true and would never adopt the Christian position. There is nothing in Hebrews 4:1-13 that states the Sabbath is fulfilled through the rest Yeshua gives us.

 

[Episkopos]

Many Christians get confused about how righteousness works.

We have a free gift of God's righteousness when we abide in Christ. But to remain in Christ is very difficult...kind of like walking on water.

But we are to learn righteousness as well....apart from the gift of God's righteousness.

Notice this..

2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Whose righteousness? Our own. Nobody can learn God's righteousness. It is a gift. Then why do we still need to learn righteousness? Many will be confused at this...since it is 2 things not just one thing. But we must back up in character what we have received as a free gift. We are making another talent in this way on the talent we have been given.

But our own righteousness is helped by "eating the flesh of Jesus" ...reading and applying the words from God.

We enter into God's righteousness by "drinking His blood" (partaking of His hidden life).

So then sinners learn from Jesus to be righteous (eating)...AND to walk in His righteousness (drinking).

 

[Episkopos]

So be it. I know it to be true and would never adopt the Christian position. There is nothing in Hebrews 4:1-13 that states the Sabbath is fulfilled through the rest Yeshua gives us.

Under Christ ALL have been deemed sinners who walk according to the flesh. But you are espousing a further performance in the flesh based on law...and ignoring grace...the power that causes us to permanentlty cease from our carnal works...which is the original purpose of the Sabbath. So then you are letting a shadow block out the light!

 

[gadar perets]

Why wasn't the Sabbath day given to man before Moses? Also, I'm curious what religion you are if not Messianic nor Christian?

It was. The Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27), not just for Jews. It was made for Adam and all men after him. Adam was to rest every seventh day as YHWH did. Are you trying to teach me that YHWH made the Sabbath the day after He made man, but that He didn't give it to man until Exodus 16? BTW, you do realize the Sabbath was given to the Jews in Exodus 16 prior to it being given as part of the Ten Commandments?

I am Messianic. I am a Messianic Hebrew as my avatar says.

 

[Episkopos]

It was. The Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27), not just for Jews. It was made for Adam and all men after him. Adam was to rest every seventh day as YHWH did. Are you trying to teach me that YHWH made the Sabbath the day after He made man, but that He didn't give it to man until Exodus 16? BTW, you do realize the Sabbath was given to the Jews in Exodus 16 prior to it being given as part of the Ten Commandments?

I am Messianic. I am a Messianic Hebrew as my avatar says.

There is no such thing as a Hebrew any more. Any more than there are Vikings. We must be careful to take ourselves too seriously in our estimations of ourselves. Watch out for pride. As they say....ego is not your amigo.