Eternal Security

[Stranger]

The passages I quoted from Hebrews have nothing to do with going back to the Mosaic system. You read that into the texts. They refer to falling away from belief in Messiah Yeshua and thereby trampling on his blood. Are you going back to the Mosaic system as well by obeying the two greatest commandments as well as nine of the Ten Commandments? Neither am I. I live under the New Covenant with Torah written on my heart and mind.


Neither. I am one who is saved and who follows the leading of the Spirit as it causes me to keep YHWH's commandments (Ezekiel 36:26-27). I then try to teach others the same so they can come out of the tremendous deception Satan has perpetrated upon the church through his ministers of light.

They have everything to do with going back to the Mosaic System of Law. I didn't read that into the text. The whole book of Hebrews is about that. The very warnings you gave in Hebrews pertain to you. Ironic.

Trampling on the blood of Christ is going back to the Law which required continuous sacrifices. Christ is the end. He is the One and only and last sacrifice. Going back to the Law is going back to a continual offering of sacrifices.

If you are under the New Covenant then you are not under the Law. You can't have it both ways.

How did you get saved?

What deception of satan upon the church?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

The promise of Jesus, the Seed, was given to Abraham 430 years before. He was always the plan, not an afterthought or last resort.

Won't argue this with you...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The wages of sin is death. If Christ has NOT paid for the sins of an individual then he is doomed to go to hell, without a choice in the matter because he is accountable for his sins.

On the other hand, an individual elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, he too has no choice in the matter because God is the ONLY ONE who can save!

Jesus said: “Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...” (John 15:16). Same idea as Romans 3.

If man has a free will as many believe, then he is the king maker and does NOT need God to save him!!!

To God Be The Glory

Where in the Bible may I read about these individuals that God so hated that he created for no other purpose than sentence them to Hell? Where may I read about a God so full of wrath and hate?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

??
Jesus DID come after the law.
That's exactly what I meant.

I don't think I answered clearly the bottom line about the Ten Commandments, and your referring to just keeping 9 of them.

Christians aren't under the Ten Commandments nor the Mosaic laws. It is not just the laws on sacrifices that were replaced. Read Romans 7:7 through Romans 8:9. Notice the reference to "covet." That is the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments, so they are the laws Paul is referring to, engraved on stone, and are fading away in Christ. They are the laws of sin and death, also called "ministry of death."

2 Corinthians 3 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Remember where it says the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life? The Ten Commandments are the letter of the law. It brings death, because it shows us our sin. Christians are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which has freed me from the law of sin and death. This is also referred to as the law of Liberty. We are liberated from sin and are no longer its slave, as those under the law of sin and death.

Galatians 3:
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Walking in the Spirit has replaced keeping the letter of the law. If you love someone, do you really need a law to tell you not to kill them? No, it is not in your born again nature.

Remember the laws of God are not abolished, except to those who have the Spirit. Without the Spirit of God in you, you will still be judged by the Royal law - love your neighbor as yourself. But not about the Sabbath, as it was the sign of the Covenant with the Jews, not the world. It was not an eternal law. References to the New Moon and Sabbath in the Old Testament are another way to say from month to month and week to week, not proof of the continuance except to the Jews.

 

[Stranger]

I was not given that choice. These are the only choices I have;

So, what do you call yourself? Are you a 'Messianic Jew'. If so, are you a Gentile who has become a 'Messianic Jew' or are you a Jew, who has accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Just what are you?

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

The promise of Jesus, the Seed, was given to Abraham 430 years before. He was always the plan, not an afterthought or last resort.

Correct. The Lamb of God was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world.

And long before Abraham, immediately after the Fall, we have the Seed of the Woman: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Gen 3:15)

While Satan instigated evil men (the seed of the Serpent) to have Christ (the virgin-born Son of God) crucified, the Cross was the very instrument which destroyed the power of the Devil. "Bruise thy head" was actually "crush thy head".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So, what do you call yourself? Are you a 'Messianic Jew'. If so, are you a Gentile who has become a 'Messianic Jew' or are you a Jew, who has accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Just what are you?

Stranger

I can't find it now, but I believe he told me he was a Messianic Hebrew.

 

[gadar perets]

Grace comes through Jesus Christ, thus He is the substance of the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16.

Colossians 2, when rightly understood, is proof that the Colossian believers were keeping the Sabbaths and Feasts, but were being admonished by Paul to not allow unbelievers to judge them on how they kept those days.

Look at Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

If keeping the 4th commandment wasn't an option, why say one esteems every day alike? Jesus accepts them both. I am not to judge the SDA or Messianic, but neither are they to judge me. They would have every right to judge me if the Sabbath commandment were binding. But its not.

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zech 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

All of the Ten Commandments are in our New Covenant commandments. 1 John 3:23. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. If we love, we certainly won't come close to breaking those we learned in Kindergarten, in fact, we establish the law, because unlike the Jews, we have the seed of the Father in us empowering us.

Christian teachings do NOT "establish the law". They teach people to break the laws by falsely proclaiming they are abolished.

Commandments 1-4 "believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ."
Commandments 5-10 "love one another."

The Ten Commandments showed us our sin. Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

Commandments 1-4 have nothing to do with believing on the name of Yeshua. They concern loving Yeshua's Father, Almighty YHWH, the ONLY true God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I never said it establishes the Sabbath. I am simply refuting your understanding that it abolishes the Sabbath.

I don't believe it was abolished for national Israel. And the last 7 years before Christ's return, I believe is for national Israel to come into the Church. (I also believe no more Gentiles will come in after that point. That it ends the "fullness of the Gentiles coming in.")

 

[Stranger]

I can't find it now, but I believe he told me he was a Messianic Hebrew.

It is of interest to me as he seems to deny the Trinity. And Messianic Jews I know do not. And Messianic Jews do not try and put Christians under the Law. They may see that they have a different relationship to the Law because they are Jews, but they do not try and put Christians under the Law. He appears to believe otherwise and call this the deception of the Church.

Thus, I do not know what he is. Messianic Jew is still Christian. His refusal to identify with that raises flags to me.

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

olossians 2, when rightly understood, is proof that the Colossian believers were keeping the Sabbaths and Feasts, but were being admonished by Paul to not allow unbelievers to judge them on how they kept those days.

Just read thus far.

I see it just the opposite, besides there is no example in Scripture to prove your statement. The Colossians were not to allow Judaizers (like in Galatians) to force Christians to keep these laws. They like the Gentiles started in the Spirit, so were not to revert back to the law.

Galatians 3
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 4: 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Will read further later.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is of interest to me as he seems to deny the Trinity. And Messianic Jews I know do not. And Messianic Jews do not try and put Christians under the Law. They may see that they have a different relationship to the Law because they are Jews, but they do not try and put Christians under the Law. He appears to believe otherwise and call this the deception of the Church.

Thus, I do not know what he is. Messianic Jew is still Christian. His refusal to identify with that raises flags to me.

Stranger

I'll let him address this question. I've never heard Messianics of accusing Christians of bestiality either. Otherwise, he seems nice.

 

[Episkopos]

What is it conditional on?
God didn't ask you if He could make His Son be a final sacrifice, did He??

Faith and faithfulness are conditions that are meant to come from us.

How does somebody walk on water? Are there not conditions? (faith) Is walking on water unconditional?

So you are asking the wrong questions and therefore getting the answers wrong. You need to concentrate on getting the questions right, first.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think I answered clearly the bottom line about the Ten Commandments, and your referring to just keeping 9 of them.

Christians aren't under the Ten Commandments nor the Mosaic laws. It is not just the laws on sacrifices that were replaced. Read Romans 7:7 through Romans 8:9. Notice the reference to "covet." That is the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments, so they are the laws Paul is referring to, engraved on stone, and are fading away in Christ. They are the laws of sin and death, also called "ministry of death."

2 Corinthians 3 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Remember where it says the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life? The Ten Commandments are the letter of the law. It brings death, because it shows us our sin. Christians are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which has freed me from the law of sin and death. This is also referred to as the law of Liberty. We are liberated from sin and are no longer its slave, as those under the law of sin and death.

Walking in the Spirit has replaced keeping the letter of the law. If you love someone, do you really need a law to tell you not to kill them? No, it is not in your born again nature.

Remember the laws of God are not abolished, except to those who have the Spirit. Without the Spirit of God in you, you will still be judged by the Royal law - love your neighbor as yourself. But not about the Sabbath, as it was the sign of the Covenant with the Jews, not the world. It was not an eternal law. References to the New Moon and Sabbath in the Old Testament are another way to say from month to month and week to week, not proof of the continuance except to the Jews.

Your last paragraph:

The Laws of God are not abolished for ANYONE.
We WILL be judged by our works, as Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 25:45:46
This is Jesus speaking. HE said we will be judged by what we DO. Needless to say we must believe in Him, or we will do nothing for Him and His Kingdom here.

If the sign of the Sabbath was for the Jews then it was for us also. We are all one now and there is neither Jew nor Gentile...
Galatians 3:28

EVERY law of God is an eternal law.
Does God change His mind?
YOU said He had everything planned from the beginning...do you not believe that anymore?

Remember to keep holy the Sabbath...
That's a commandment just like honoring parents, not stealing, not bearing false witness, etc.

If we could eliminate one commandment, why can't we eliminate even more?
Doesn't Jesus cover all of them?

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith and faithfulness are conditions that are meant to come from us.

How does somebody walk on water? Are there not conditions? (faith) Is walking on water unconditional?

So you are asking the wrong questions and therefore getting the answers wrong. You need to concentrate on getting the questions right, first.

Sure.

 

[gadar perets]

They have everything to do with going back to the Mosaic System of Law. I didn't read that into the text. The whole book of Hebrews is about that. The very warnings you gave in Hebrews pertain to you. Ironic.

Trampling on the blood of Christ is going back to the Law which required continuous sacrifices. Christ is the end. He is the One and only and last sacrifice. Going back to the Law is going back to a continual offering of sacrifices.

I do not sacrifice animals. Nor do I live under the OC. As I asked you twice already with no answer from you; Are you going back to the law by obeying the two greatest commandments and nine of the Ten Commandments??? Answer please. Neither am I going back to the law simply because I obey the Sabbath command.

If you are under the New Covenant then you are not under the Law. You can't have it both ways.

"Not under the law" means we are not under its condemnation. It does NOT mean we don't have to obey it. To disobey the law is to sin (1 John 3:4).

How did you get saved?

The Almighty arranged to have a man die in my arms as I tried to give him CPR. I did not want to die as he did before receiving "Jesus" as my Saviour. I gave my life to him 33 years ago. How about you?

What deception of satan upon the church?

The deception that the law has been abolished and we need not obey the commandments anymore.

 

[Episkopos]

"gadar perets, post: 435961, member: 7741"]
Romans 3:31 is about the law of YHWH. Romans 9:30 is referring to the law of righteousness. My righteousness comes through Yeshua, not through my law keeping. Therefore, I do not throw out any possibility of righteousness like the Jews did. I am clothed with Yeshua's righteousness. That does not give me licence to break the commandments.

If you were really justified through Christ you would not be looking to the law. Have you read this?

Rom. 10:4 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We enter into God's righteousness by faith. If you are adding in the law...you haven't yet understood what faith is. You have fallen from grace.


There is no blessing of rest on Sunday. It only applies to the 7th day. The majority of Christians do NOT rest on the 7th day.

So what? We are to cease from ALL our religious works. Jesus has come in the flesh. He is resurrected to give us His life, peace and rest. Why would you trade that for a silly notion that not working for one day a week is somehow pleasing to God...in the face of grace. You frustrate the grace of God in this way.

He is calling us to walk as he walked (in obedience to his and his Father's commandments). I will not obey man and discard the Sabbath. That is major error.

You have missed the gospel. We are to walk as He walked in the same power...all the time. Jesus didn't put on His power only on sabbath days. Is that what you think? That Jesus was a Sabbath Messiah? Silliness.

No need to come to Christ. I am already in him and he in me. The fact that I am dead tired after working six days shows I do not have a physical rest through Yeshua. Neither does anyone else that works hard all week.

You are stuck in materialistic thinking...just like any other Gentile who has not yet understood the gospel. Very FAR from being a Hebrew.

It is the power of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant that I trust in to cause me to keep the commandments (Ezekiel 36:26-27). I do not trust in my own flesh.

Then why are you trust your own Sabbath observance as if it was something we MUST do? You are totally doing this in the flesh.

It is you that needs to reconsider your carnal position since you refuse to subject yourself to the law of YHWH (Romans 8:7).

I am retired and don't work in the world...does that make me more holy? Again silliness.

 

[gadar perets]

So, what do you call yourself? Are you a 'Messianic Jew'. If so, are you a Gentile who has become a 'Messianic Jew' or are you a Jew, who has accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Just what are you?

Stranger

I am not a Messianic Jew or a Messianic Israelite. Both groups are trinitarian and follow man's laws. When forced to label myself, I call myself a Messianic Hebrew. I do not know if I have Jewish blood in me. All that matters to me is that I am Yeshua's. Since I am of the seed of Abraham through Messiah, and since he was a Hebrew, then I am a Hebrew as well and a Messianic one at that.

 

[GodsGrace]

"gadar perets, post: 435961, member: 7741"]
Romans 3:31 is about the law of YHWH. Romans 9:30 is referring to the law of righteousness. My righteousness comes through Yeshua, not through my law keeping. Therefore, I do not throw out any possibility of righteousness like the Jews did. I am clothed with Yeshua's righteousness. That does not give me licence to break the commandments.

If you were really justified through Christ you would not be looking to the law. Have you read this?

Rom. 10:4 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We enter into God's righteousness by faith. If you are adding in the law...you haven't yet understood what faith is. You have fallen from grace.


There is no blessing of rest on Sunday. It only applies to the 7th day. The majority of Christians do NOT rest on the 7th day.

So what? We are to cease from ALL our religious works. Jesus has come in the flesh. He is resurrected to give us His life, peace and rest. Why would you trade that for a silly notion that not working for one day a week is somehow pleasing to God...in the face of grace. You frustrate the grace of God in this way.

He is calling us to walk as he walked (in obedience to his and his Father's commandments). I will not obey man and discard the Sabbath. That is major error.

You have missed the gospel. We are to walk as He walked in the same power...all the time. Jesus didn't put on His power only on sabbath days. Is that what you think? That Jesus was a Sabbath Messiah? Silliness.

No need to come to Christ. I am already in him and he in me. The fact that I am dead tired after working six days shows I do not have a physical rest through Yeshua. Neither does anyone else that works hard all week.

You are stuck in materialistic thinking...just like any other Gentile who has not yet understood the gospel. Very FAR from being a Hebrew.

It is the power of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant that I trust in to cause me to keep the commandments (Ezekiel 36:26-27). I do not trust in my own flesh.

Then why are you trust your own Sabbath observance as if it was something we MUST do? You are totally doing this in the flesh.

It is you that needs to reconsider your carnal position since you refuse to subject yourself to the law of YHWH (Romans 8:7).

I am retired and don't work in the world...does that make me more holy? Again silliness.

Wow. You know all about the covenants, all about asking the right questions, all about faith.

Do you also agree that we MUST keep the commandments of God or are you one of those who is trusting Jesus to keep all the commandments for them when Jesus Himself said you will be judged by what you do.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Your last paragraph:

The Laws of God are not abolished for ANYONE.
We WILL be judged by our works, as Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 25:45:46
This is Jesus speaking. HE said we will be judged by what we DO. Needless to say we must believe in Him, or we will do nothing for Him and His Kingdom here.

If the sign of the Sabbath was for the Jews then it was for us also. We are all one now and there is neither Jew nor Gentile...
Galatians 3:28

EVERY law of God is an eternal law.
Does God change His mind?
YOU said He had everything planned from the beginning...do you not believe that anymore?

Remember to keep holy the Sabbath...
That's a commandment just like honoring parents, not stealing, not bearing false witness, etc.

If we could eliminate one commandment, why can't we eliminate even more?
Doesn't Jesus cover all of them?

Remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision, but when that Seed was fulfilled in Christ, we are no longer under the law of circumcision - it is now spiritual of the heart, not of the flesh.

It is the same with the Ten Commandments and its sign, the Sabbath. When the covenant was fulfilled in Christ, and He brought in a New Covenant, the old sign became spiritual - our rest in Jesus - grace. And now our sign is the Cup.