Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

Sorry to chop up your post like this, but it is better for me to handle to have smaller posts.

Here again, you are accusing Christians of heinous acts that a Christian does not do. Bearing false witness is one of the Ten Commandments you say you keep.

And here you are again accusing me of accusing Christians when I did no such thing. I said, "Most Sabbath opponents will not: ...". Reread my post.

As for the "other" 9 commandments, it is not necessary to point those out to a Christian if they love their neighbor. There are two New Testament commandments that Jesus consistently commanded and reviewed. He even used the Ten Commandments as examples in showing how His commandments were stronger and reached deeper into the soul. For instance:

Matthew 5: “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

If we break the letter of "Thou shalt not murder", then we also broke Yeshua's magnification of the letter. The boundaries of the commandment have been extended to make it even easier to break the commandment. Yet, the commandment as written still stands. The same is true of ALL Ten.

Christians are not under the Ten Commandments as a covenant. The Ten Commandments were weak. Holy, but weak. Why because they did nothing to take away sin, only point out sin to those in the flesh.

The commandments were weak "through the flesh". That was taken care of by destroying sin in the flesh, not by destroying the commandments. And yes, they were given as part of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33);

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
​

Jeremiah and all other Israelites knew full well what Torah is. Do you?

There is

therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

This holds true ONLY for those who do not walk in the flesh. To trample all over YHWH's holy days and to eat swine's flesh are ways believers walk in the flesh. Had you quoted the rest of the passage, you would get the full picture.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
​

If you are among those who refuse to be subject to the law of YHWH, then verse 7 refers to you. It is the function of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant to "cause" people to keep YHWH's commandments (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Holy Spirit is doing this today. Those that have ears to hear will follow the Spirit into obedience. Those that fight against obeying the law/Torah are walking in the flesh.

 

[gadar perets]

Now this is strange. The warnings you present in (Hebrews) are to Jewish believers, Christians, who are suffering a form of persecution from the Jewish non-believers. They are tempted to go back to the Mosaic system, the Law and cease assembling with the Church. And Paul is warning them, don't go back. To go back is to have an evil heart of unbelief. To go back is to sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth.

The passages I quoted from Hebrews have nothing to do with going back to the Mosaic system. You read that into the texts. They refer to falling away from belief in Messiah Yeshua and thereby trampling on his blood. Are you going back to the Mosaic system as well by obeying the two greatest commandments as well as nine of the Ten Commandments? Neither am I. I live under the New Covenant with Torah written on my heart and mind.

So who are you? One who is saved, having received Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, but turned back to the Law. Or are you one who has not received Christ as Lord and Saviour, and are attempting to draw believers back under the Law?

Neither. I am one who is saved and who follows the leading of the Spirit as it causes me to keep YHWH's commandments (Ezekiel 36:26-27). I then try to teach others the same so they can come out of the tremendous deception Satan has perpetrated upon the church through his ministers of light.

 

[Episkopos]

There is nothing WE can do to be holy. The ONLY way to be holy is to enter into Christ. Any other effort in this regard is mixture.

However we ARE to learn righteousness. This is about character...not religious observance. So that is the one thing we are to do as much as WE can.

But mixing up righteousness and holiness brings no end of confusion.

The OT holiness laws are gone for good. There can be no more human efforts at holiness. it has been shown to be impossible. No, not one!

The Sabbath law is a HOLINESS law not a righteousness law.

Look at this...

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

They were both righteous....not holy.

 

[gadar perets]

Under Christ ALL have been deemed sinners who walk according to the flesh. But you are espousing a further performance in the flesh based on law...and ignoring grace...the power that causes us to permanentlty cease from our carnal works...which is the original purpose of the Sabbath. So then you are letting a shadow block out the light!

Was Paul doing the same when he wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31)?
Was Paul doing the same when he told us the things we should not perform in the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21, most of which are transgressions of the law? Grace does not make void the law any more than faith does.

The purpose of the Sabbath was to provide a rest for man and time to fellowship and worship his Creator by ceasing from physical labor on the 7th day. Since we still labor, we are to still rest.

A shadow does not cease until the reality comes. Yeshua is NOT the reality of the Sabbath rest. The Millennial Kingdom after we are resurrected is. Yes, we have a spiritual rest in Yeshua, but neither we nor animals have a physical rest through him. If we did, we wouldn't need to sleep anymore either.

 

[Episkopos]

"gadar perets, post: 435950, member: 7741"]Was Paul doing the same when he wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31)?
Was Paul doing the same when he told us the things we should not perform in the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21, most of which are transgressions of the law? Grace does not make void the law any more than faith does.

Again you are not distinguishing which law. Look at this...

Rom. 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Is this about holiness or righteousness? You are throwing out any possibility of righteousness just like the Jews did because they had the same difficulty as you so presently... Do you see that the Gentiles are getting it better in this regard than the Jews? Read the verses from Paul.

You are letting yourself become side-tracked by justifying your carnal effort at holiness..then judging other believers as not "messianic" enough. Truly a huge error.


The purpose of the Sabbath was to provide a rest for man and time to fellowship and worship his Creator by ceasing from physical labor on the 7th day. Since we still labor, we are to still rest.

We have a 2 day weekend in which to rest...so the physical part is being already fulfilled.

A shadow does not cease until the reality comes. Yeshua is NOT the reality of the Sabbath rest.

Are you an unbeliever? You think your lack of faith is superior to those who walk by faith? The sheer scale of that error. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. He is calling us to Himself for that rest. THAT is true holiness.


The Millennial Kingdom after we are resurrected is. Yes, we have a spiritual rest in Yeshua, but neither we nor animals have a physical rest through him. If we did, we wouldn't need to sleep anymore either.

The kingdom of God is in the Spirit. You are trusting in the power of the flesh. You need to actually come to Christ to experience His rest. Otherwise you are showing your own confidence in your own fleshly efforts....which Jesus condemns. Will you reconsider your present carnal condition? I hope you do.

 

[gadar perets]

There is nothing WE can do to be holy. The ONLY way to be holy is to enter into Christ. Any other effort in this regard is mixture.

However we ARE to learn righteousness. This is about character...not religious observance. So that is the one thing we are to do as much as WE can.

But mixing up righteousness and holiness brings no end of confusion.

The OT holiness laws are gone for good. There can be no more human efforts at holiness. it has been shown to be impossible. No, not one!

The Sabbath law is a HOLINESS law not a righteousness law.

Look at this...

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

They were both righteous....not holy.

Yes, we are holy though Yeshua. As such, we are expected to live holy lives.

1Pe 1:15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1Pe 1:16 since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."
​

To keep the Sabbath is to be holy in conduct. The Sabbath is also a righteousness law. It is unrighteous to cause someone to work on the Sabbath.

 

[gadar perets]

"gadar perets, post: 435950, member: 7741"]Was Paul doing the same when he wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law" (Romans 3:31)?
Was Paul doing the same when he told us the things we should not perform in the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21, most of which are transgressions of the law? Grace does not make void the law any more than faith does.

Again you are not distinguishing which law. Look at this...

Rom. 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Is this about holiness or righteousness? You are throwing out any possibility of righteousness just like the Jews did because they had the same difficulty as you so presently... Do you see that the Gentiles are getting it better in this regard than the Jews? Read the verses from Paul.

You are letting yourself become side-tracked by justifying your carnal effort at holiness..then judging other believers as not "messianic" enough. Truly a huge error.

Romans 3:31 is about the law of YHWH. Romans 9:30 is referring to the law of righteousness. My righteousness comes through Yeshua, not through my law keeping. Therefore, I do not throw out any possibility of righteousness like the Jews did. I am clothed with Yeshua's righteousness. That does not give me licence to break the commandments.

We have a 2 day weekend in which to rest...so the physical part is being already fulfilled.

There is no blessing of rest on Sunday. It only applies to the 7th day. The majority of Christians do NOT rest on the 7th day.

Are you an unbeliever? You think your lack of faith is superior to those who walk by faith? The sheer scale of that error. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. He is calling us to Himself for that rest. THAT is true holiness.

He is calling us to walk as he walked (in obedience to his and his Father's commandments). I will not obey man and discard the Sabbath. That is major error.

The kingdom of God is in the Spirit. You are trusting in the power of the flesh. You need to actually come to Christ to experience His rest. Otherwise you are showing your own confidence in your own fleshly efforts....which Jesus condemns. Will you reconsider your present carnal condition? I hope you do.

No need to come to Christ. I am already in him and he in me. The fact that I am dead tired after working six days shows I do not have a physical rest through Yeshua. Neither does anyone else that works hard all week.

It is the power of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant that I trust in to cause me to keep the commandments (Ezekiel 36:26-27). I do not trust in my own flesh.

It is you that needs to reconsider your carnal position since you refuse to subject yourself to the law of YHWH (Romans 8:7).

 

[GodsGrace]

Our concern is with the NC. And that covenant is conditional.

What is it conditional on?
God didn't ask you if He could make His Son be a final sacrifice, did He??

 

[1stCenturyLady]

As a last resort, God sent His only Son, Jesus to establish the New Covenant.

As a last resort? No, it was the plan from the very beginning, even before the foundation of the world. But between Abraham and the promised Seed the Ten Commandments were brought in because of sin. But it could do nothing about sin in that it didn't do anything but show us our sin. It was a ministry of sin and death.

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

(Your post is long and I haven't read it all. I got to here and thought I would address it. Nap time.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So be it. I know it to be true and would never adopt the Christian position. There is nothing in Hebrews 4:1-13 that states the Sabbath is fulfilled through the rest Yeshua gives us.

The point is Hebrews 4 is not establishing the Sabbath, but our entering into God's rest - grace through His Son.

 

[GodsGrace]

As a last resort? No, it was the plan from the very beginning, even before the foundation of the world. But between Abraham and the promised Seed the Ten Commandments were brought in because of sin. But it could do nothing about sin in that it didn't do anything but show us our sin. It was a ministry of sin and death.

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

(Your post is long and I haven't read it all. I got to here and thought I would address it. Nap time.

From the beginning....right.
But it WAS the last resort.
Nothing avx after Jesus.
Sleep well.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Your profile says "other faith." Why not just choose Messianic?

Where is it written that Adam kept the Sabbath. We don't see it given to man until Exodus 16.

 

[GodsGrace]

The point is Hebrews 4 is not establishing the Sabbath, but our entering into God's rest - grace through His Son.

But keeping holy the Sabbath IS one of the 10 commandments,,,this has always bothered me.
Are we allowed to break any of the other 9?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

From the beginning....right.
But it WAS the last resort.
Nothing avx after Jesus.
Sleep well.

Saying last resort implies "after the law." That's not true. The promise to Abraham came first, 430 years before the law. Galatians 3:17

Okay, talk to you later.

 

[gadar perets]

The point is Hebrews 4 is not establishing the Sabbath, but our entering into God's rest - grace through His Son.

I never said it establishes the Sabbath. I am simply refuting your understanding that it abolishes the Sabbath.

 

[gadar perets]

Your profile says "other faith." Why not just choose Messianic?

I was not given that choice. These are the only choices I have;

• Christian
• Muslim
• Agnostic
• Atheist
• Other Faith

Where is it written that Adam kept the Sabbath. We don't see it given to man until Exodus 16.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
​

Yeshua did not mean the Sabbath was only made for men between that lived between Exodus 16 and his resurrection.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But keeping holy the Sabbath IS one of the 10 commandments,,,this has always bothered me.
Are we allowed to break any of the other 9?

The Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, Exodus 31:13. It was a physical day. But God's rest is not a physical day, but spiritual - grace. When a New Covenant is brought in with a new sign to its covenant, the old is done away. It is just as a will and testament. The Cup of the New Testament is our sign, no longer the Sabbath. Read Hebrews 3 and 4 carefully. It refers to the 7th day Sabbath, but shows clearly it was not God's rest, even though the Jews kept the Sabbath day. The conclusion of Hebrews 4 is entering into God's rest through our High Priest to the Throne of GRACE. Grace comes through Jesus Christ, thus He is the substance of the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16.

Look at Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

If keeping the 4th commandment wasn't an option, why say one esteems every day alike? Jesus accepts them both. I am not to judge the SDA or Messianic, but neither are they to judge me. They would have every right to judge me if the Sabbath commandment were binding. But its not.

All of the Ten Commandments are in our New Covenant commandments. 1 John 3:23. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. If we love, we certainly won't come close to breaking those we learned in Kindergarten, in fact, we establish the law, because unlike the Jews, we have the seed of the Father in us empowering us.

Commandments 1-4 "believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ."
Commandments 5-10 "love one another."

The Ten Commandments showed us our sin. Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

Looks like I'm getting my second wind, but I am going to lie down anyway.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I was not given that choice. These are the only choices I have;

• Christian
• Muslim
• Agnostic
• Atheist
• Other Faith

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
​

Yeshua did not mean the Sabbath was only made for men between that lived between Exodus 16 and his resurrection.

Really? That's strange. If I were you, I would make a ticket with Admin to change that omission.

 

[GodsGrace]

Saying last resort implies "after the law." That's not true. The promise to Abraham came first, 430 years before the law. Galatians 3:17

Okay, talk to you later.

??
Jesus DID come after the law.
That's exactly what I meant.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

??
Jesus DID come after the law.
That's exactly what I meant.

The promise of Jesus, the Seed, was given to Abraham 430 years before. He was always the plan, not an afterthought or last resort.