Outer Darkness

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Taken

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loved it, alla way down to the Death More Abundantly part :)
get the twinkle today imo, today is always the day,
...for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place--until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts.

sorry, look what i really mean to say here is that you have tagged me, but you are not addressing the tag at all, at this point; if you trackback and read, i'm sure you will see my point. the first one, the refute, i have already addressed and we can proceed from your reply, but this one, i feel like we are not even having a convo anymore wadr

Okay.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Hidden In Him

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No, they do not all agree, nor have we need for the traditions of men nor for their dreams and visions on this particular subject as we have the Word of God on the matter, and that is sufficient enough for us.

"He that hath a dream [an imagination], let him tell a dream (if he has nothing better to tell); but he that hath MY WORD, let him speak My Word FAITHFULLY." Jer. 23:28

Nor let us not spend undue time, even, in refuting the dreamers' dreams, for "what is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord."

“This statement is made by way of showing that many are teaching and preaching their own dreams, imaginings or the dreams of their forefathers, in neglect of the Word of God—the Holy Scriptures (or as equal in authority). Jesus charged the religious rulers of His day, saying, "Ye do make void the Law of God through your traditions" (Matt. 15:8, 6, 9) -- teaching as commandments of God what are really the traditions of men. Similarly, both Catholics and Protestants, with good intentions, have gradually left the Word of God-- the teachings of Jesus; the Apostles and the Prophets--and that, commingled with certain truths, they are now teaching the traditions of the "Dark Ages" which are violently antagonistic to the teachings of the Bible. One of these is the false doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin.”

Now it’s true that a true prophet of the Lord may have a dream or vision something which may have been communicated to him by the Lord, which may be intended for himself alone or for others, but when relating his dream to others he is to make sure that those with whom he speaks understand it as such, as a dream, NOT as a divine revelation something to be impose upon the Lord’s people, especially if it in any way it contradicts the written word.

Any dream or vision which is not in full harmony with the written word is not to be accepted it is nothing more than the vain imaginings of the individual.

We need to guard ourselves lest dreams be given undue importance. There was an appropriate necessity for dreams in olden times which do not exist now. (They did not have access to the divine revelation, the written word as we do today). The Lord’s word is to be put far above all dreams of our own and others. If a dream corroborates a plain statement of the Word it may be used as we would use a type, to illustrate but not to teach a doctrine.

"If they (in this case the prophet who has a dream) speak not in harmony with the Word of God, it is because there is no light (no truth) in them." Isa. 8:20

The Lord’s people should not be in expectation of receiving the answers to their questions through dreams and visions, but rather through the written word, “the faith once for all delivered to the saints.”–Jude 3.

No offense, Harvest, because I mean you none quite honestly. But you may want to think over writing long posts addressed to me if you are hoping for a response. I read as far as the following six words, saw who it was from, and quit reading.
No, they do not all agree

I've told you before we likely would not have any discussions for quite some time and I meant it. Nothing personal, just that it became apparent we don't have much in common.

God bless.
Hidden
 

Nancy

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That is what Jesus described in that parable. That was one side of the chasm in the abyss, the other side was where the rest of Humanity will lodge to await the anointedd time of their judgement.

Shalom
I have been led to believe these saints who had passed, were set free by Jesus when He descended to Abraham's bosom. He told them of His victory over Satan, and set the captives free!! If "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" then, those who were in Abraham's bosom (OT saints) are no longer there but, with Jesus at the right hand of God, in heaven. I don't believe Jesus went to Hell to suffer but to “disarm the rulers and authorities ( Col 2:15 ALT)” by taking the “keys of Hell and Death (Rev 1:18)”
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell , neither his flesh did see corruption.
So, I think by the last verse here, we can say that Jesus did indeed descend to Hell for 3 days.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I thought to start this thread since I find no one considers this eternal destiny in their calculations as to possible outcomes for humanity.

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Wandering in the wilderness is nothing new...but into eternity?

Eternal darkness...or outer darkness... this is a destiny that Jesus spoke of.

Outer darkness is a place referred to three times in the Gospel of Matthew (8:12, 22:13, and 25:30) into which a person may be "cast out", and where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Before I go into more detail...I leave it open for others to comment on this subject. it isn't something discussed very much if at all. But it should be.

Well, it's not the "lake of fire," so to me it could be the time experienced after death, and before the resurrection for the unrighteous.
 

Hidden In Him

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LOL At least the two of you agreed on something even if it was to misplace Memorial Day which normally falls in May! ;)
:rolleyes:

A Ha Ha!
And Merry Christmas to him! (sorta like Christmas in July, only different).

charlie-brown-christmas-tree.jpg
 
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Enoch111

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So, I think by the last verse here, we can say that Jesus did indeed descend to Hell for 3 days.
Had you replaced "Hell" with Hades, you would have confirmed that Christ did go to Hades fro 3 days and 3 nights, but not to Hell (which remains unoccupied until the final judgment).

It is unfortunate that the KJB translators did not transliterate Hades (or Tartarus), and that has caused a lot of confusion. (just like "tongues" instead of "languages").
 
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Hidden In Him

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not to Hell (which remains unoccupied until the final judgment).

This is a new one (for me anyway)...

Enoch, since it's you I'll keep an open mind, but how are you differentiating between Hades and Hell? I thought the two sides of Sheol were Hades and Paradise. Also, if Hell remains unoccupied until after the final judgment yet scripture says that Death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, doesn't that sort of cancel it out?
 
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Harvest 1874

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No offense, Harvest, because I mean you none quite honestly. But you may want to think over writing long posts addressed to me if you are hoping for a response. I read as far as the following six words, saw who it was from, and quit reading.


I've told you before we likely would not have any discussions for quite some time and I meant it. Nothing personal, just that it became apparent we don't have much in common.

God bless.
Hidden

It is not simply that we respond to an individual’s post with the hopes of opening his or her mind to the truth that we respond to their posts, some we understand are to set in theirs ways and because the love of the truth is not in them, they have been given over to the Adversaries lie, specifically, “Thou shall not surely die”, but more importantly we respond in order to refute any errors which we see being propagated which we deem destructive to the faith of God’s little ones.

The doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin most certainly falls under this description.
 

Harvest 1874

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DEATH, NOT TORMENT, THE PENALTY

“Note well the mistake made in assuming eternal torment as the wages of original sin, when the Scriptures explicitly declare, “The wages of sin is death” - not eternal torment (Rom. 6:23). We search the Genesis account of man’s fall, and the sentence imposed, but find no suggestion of a future eternal torture, but merely of a death penalty. Repeating it the second time, the Lord said, “Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return” (Gen. 3:19). But He said not a word respecting devils, fire and torment. How, then, did the Adversary deceive our fathers, during the Dark Ages, with his errors, which the Apostle styles “doctrines of devils”?

Note the fact that none of the prophecies mention any other than a death penalty for sin. Note that the New Testament likewise declares the same. The Apostle Paul, who wrote more than one-half of the New Testament, assures us, “I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God” (Acts 20:27), yet he says not a word about eternal torment, on the contrary, discussing this very matter of sin and its penalty, he says, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” (Rom. 5:12).

Note that it was not eternal torment that passed upon one man, nor upon all men, but death. If someone suggests that death would not be a sufficient penalty for sin, all we would need to do would be to point him to the facts, and thus prove his suggestions illogical. For the sin of disobedience Adam lost his paradisiac home - lost his perfect life and Divine fellowship, and instead got sickness, pain, sorrow, death. Additionally, all of his posterity, billions upon billions in number, were disinherited so far as the blessing are concerned, and have inherited instead, weaknesses, mental, moral and physical, and are, as the Apostle declares, “a groaning creation” (Rom. 8:22).

These countless billions born in sin and “shapen in iniquity” (Psa. 51:5)! A few short hours or days or years of trouble and disobedience brought them to their death bed; the weeping friends stood around with breaking hearts. They were carried to the tomb - ‘‘ashes to ashes; dust to dust.” Reviewing the whole situation - and remembering that all the sickness, sorrow, pain, death, mental and moral decrepitude results from Father Adam’s transgression, what sane man would say that the penalty has been insufficient, and that Justice could or further demands that these millions shall, at death, be hurried to a hell of endless woe, trouble - tormented by demons to all eternity? Dear friends, the person who thus reasons so indicates that he either never had the power to reason, or has lost it.”
 

bbyrd009

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LoL. I think you may be misreading me. I'm not going there, so it's not as if I'm particularly worried about myself. Got a chuckle out of this first line. You make it sound like believing scripture is a torment unto itself, LoL!
ha of course you aren't going there, you are doing God's will right? The premise was not about where you are going, but whether it even exists as you have been convinced is true. Iow address how Hades mythology has no punishment in the afterlife, and Gehenna is in Erets, so how did you find a place of eternal torture for damned souls in your Bible?
 
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Guestman

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To grasp what Jude was inspired to express (and the rest of the Bible), a reader has to always consider the context, not just one scripture (that can be taken out of context) but perhaps the entire chapter of even entire letter or book. So what was Jude, through God's spirit, telling his readers ?

At Jude 5, he speaks of Israelites who lacked faith, then at verse 6, he speaks of the rebellious angels that left their heavenly realm and assignments in order to have sex with the "daughters of men".(Gen 6:1-4) Jude now says for these rebel angels who "forsook their own proper dwelling place (or in heaven as spirit "sons of God", Jude 6a), so that Jehovah God "has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day (or during Jesus millennia reign, called Judgment Day)".(Jude 6b)

These rebel angels or "demons", because they "pursued unnatural fleshly desires (materializing as men and having sex with women and producing offspring called Nephilim, Gen 6:4), were cut off from any spiritual light from God, being put into "dense darkness", so that just as the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah pursued "unnatural fleshly desires (or homosexuality)", in which these immoral men of Sodom and Gomorrah "are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire (or everlasting destruction, receiving no resurrection from the dead, not eternal torment, which is not a scriptural teaching)".(Jude 7)

Likewise, Jude continues his argument that wicked men had infiltrated the Christian congregation, just as the rebel angels gained access to mankind and caused great troubles.(see Gen 6:5) Jude mentions those who ' indulge in dreams ', perhaps having "dreams" of fame or glory or seeking material riches, pursuing their own course without regard for Jehovah, as well as "defiling the flesh" through immoral behavior, "despising (both congregational and civil) authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones (such as the apostles or overseers in the 1st century), so that "they go on corrupting themselves"(Jude 8, 10)

These rebels in the Christian congregation "have followed the path of Cain (Gen 4:8) and have rushed into the erroneous course of Balaam (Numbers chapters 22-25), and they have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah". (Number 16)

Hence Jude now says that these rebels against Jehovah God are like "wild waves of the sea (restless, spiritually unstable, always looking for and causing trouble) that cast up the foam of their shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever".(Jude 13)

At 2 Peter 2, the apostle Peter also refers to these same ones as Jude did, using the example of the Global Flood when "God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned (those who materialized as men before the Global Deluge and fathered the Nephilim or "giants", Gen 6:4), but threw them into Tartarus (or spiritual darkness, receiving no spiritual light from Jehovah as they were privileged to before their rebellion), putting them into chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment (or everlasting destruction, Rev 20:10)".(2 Pet 2:4)

Then Peter says that individuals are like those rebel angels, "daring and self-willed.....not afraid to speak abusively of glorious ones (or men placed in weighty spiritual responsibilities on the earth).....They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living (living out their "dreams", Jude 8).....They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you (trying to appear as a spiritual person while in others presence, but are not, trying to deceive others with their "teachings" with "eyes full of adultery", 2 Pet 2:14)......These are waterless springs and mists (having no spiritual "truths" with which to quench others spiritual thirst, only self-serving interests) driven by a violent storm, and and the blackest darkness has been reserved for them.....making high-sounding statements (wanting to be noticed as "somebody" of importance) that are empty.(2 Pet 2:10, 13, 17, 18)

Hence, in the Bible book of Malachi, it says that during our time frame, called "the last days" (2 Tim 3:1), that a spiritual person, one who loves Jehovah God (Matt 22:37), that "you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him".(Mal 3:18)
 

Episkopos

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To grasp what Jude was inspired to express (and the rest of the Bible), a reader has to always consider the context, not just one scripture (that can be taken out of context) but perhaps the entire chapter of even entire letter or book. So what was Jude, through God's spirit, telling his readers ?

At Jude 5, he speaks of Israelites who lacked faith, then at verse 6, he speaks of the rebellious angels that left their heavenly realm and assignments in order to have sex with the "daughters of men".(Gen 6:1-4) Jude now says for these rebel angels who "forsook their own proper dwelling place (or in heaven as spirit "sons of God", Jude 6a), so that Jehovah God "has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day (or during Jesus millennia reign, called Judgment Day)".(Jude 6b)

These rebel angels or "demons", because they "pursued unnatural fleshly desires (materializing as men and having sex with women and producing offspring called Nephilim, Gen 6:4), were cut off from any spiritual light from God, being put into "dense darkness", so that just as the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah pursued "unnatural fleshly desires (or homosexuality)", in which these immoral men of Sodom and Gomorrah "are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire (or everlasting destruction, receiving no resurrection from the dead, not eternal torment, which is not a scriptural teaching)".(Jude 7)

Likewise, Jude continues his argument that wicked men had infiltrated the Christian congregation, just as the rebel angels gained access to mankind and caused great troubles.(see Gen 6:5) Jude mentions those who ' indulge in dreams ', perhaps having "dreams" of fame or glory or seeking material riches, pursuing their own course without regard for Jehovah, as well as "defiling the flesh" through immoral behavior, "despising (both congregational and civil) authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones (such as the apostles or overseers in the 1st century), so that "they go on corrupting themselves"(Jude 8, 10)

These rebels in the Christian congregation "have followed the path of Cain (Gen 4:8) and have rushed into the erroneous course of Balaam (Numbers chapters 22-25), and they have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah". (Number 16)

Hence Jude now says that these rebels against Jehovah God are like "wild waves of the sea (restless, spiritually unstable, always looking for and causing trouble) that cast up the foam of their shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever".(Jude 13)

At 2 Peter 2, the apostle Peter also refers to these same ones as Jude did, using the example of the Global Flood when "God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned (those who materialized as men before the Global Deluge and fathered the Nephilim or "giants", Gen 6:4), but threw them into Tartarus (or spiritual darkness, receiving no spiritual light from Jehovah as they were privileged to before their rebellion), putting them into chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment (or everlasting destruction, Rev 20:10)".(2 Pet 2:4)

Then Peter says that individuals are like those rebel angels, "daring and self-willed.....not afraid to speak abusively of glorious ones (or men placed in weighty spiritual responsibilities on the earth).....They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living (living out their "dreams", Jude 8).....They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you (trying to appear as a spiritual person while in others presence, but are not, trying to deceive others with their "teachings" with "eyes full of adultery", 2 Pet 2:14)......These are waterless springs and mists (having no spiritual "truths" with which to quench others spiritual thirst, only self-serving interests) driven by a violent storm, and and the blackest darkness has been reserved for them.....making high-sounding statements (wanting to be noticed as "somebody" of importance) that are empty.(2 Pet 2:10, 13, 17, 18)

Hence, in the Bible book of Malachi, it says that during our time frame, called "the last days" (2 Tim 3:1), that a spiritual person, one who loves Jehovah God (Matt 22:37), that "you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him".(Mal 3:18)


Ummm...not so much. We have real people in our love gatherings...no need to spiritualize.
 

bbyrd009

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...but it can't be as stated in the bible??...eternal darkness?
ya, what Bush had iow? has?
Well, it's not the "lake of fire," so to me it could be the time experienced after death, and before the resurrection for the unrighteous.
yes, in order for some to have Death More Abundantly some others must have Death Less Abundantly i guess right
 

1stCenturyLady

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...but it can't be as stated in the bible??...eternal darkness?

I haven't found that the Bible gives a detailed explanation. Granted what it is, is total separation from God. God is light. I'm just wondering 'when' does that begin - at death - or judgment.
 
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