Outer Darkness

[quietthinker]

I think we need to sort out where people after death go to before judgment and after judgment.

The scripture is abundantly clear. The dead know nothing. They go nowhere, their consciousness has ceased while they await a resurrection either for life at the return of Jesus or for the second resurrection and the second death, consumed by fire till till they vanish. I'd say that is outer darkness to the max.

 

[Enoch111]

The dead know nothing.

Leaning on Ecclesiastes (9:5) for our doctrine is like leaning on a reed. The fate of the dead is described by Christ Himself, so that is where one should go for the truth. The narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable but a revelation of the afterlife. And it clearly shows us that "the dead know nothing" does not present the truth.

Ecclesiastes simply shows us that a man without Christ lives a life of vanity. It is another road sign pointing to the Gospel, not a book on which Christians base their doctrines.

For the living know that they shall die: TRUE
but the dead know not any thing, FALSE
neither have they any more a reward; FALSE
for the memory of them is forgotten. FALSE

The "reward" of the unsaved dead is torment in Hades. Luke 16:23,24

God does not "forget" the unsaved dead. They are resurrected at the resurrection of damnation, and then consigned to the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:10-15.

 

[quietthinker]

Leaning on Ecclesiastes (9:5) for our doctrine is like leaning on a reed. The fate of the dead is described by Christ Himself, so that is where one should go for the truth. The narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable but a revelation of the afterlife. And it clearly shows us that "the dead know nothing" does not present the truth.

Ecclesiastes simply shows us that a man without Christ lives a life of vanity. It is another road sign pointing to the Gospel, not a book on which Christians base their doctrines.

For the living know that they shall die: TRUE
but the dead know not any thing, FALSE
neither have they any more a reward; FALSE
for the memory of them is forgotten. FALSE

The "reward" of the unsaved dead is torment in Hades. Luke 16:23,24

God does not "forget" the unsaved dead. They are resurrected at the resurrection of damnation, and then consigned to the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:10-15.

It is hardly a reed Enoch and the story of Lazarus and the rich man is precisely there to illustrate that if they do not believe Moses and the prophets, in other words, the word of God he inspired men to write, then one wouldn't believe even if one who rose from the dead.

 

[Episkopos]

Leaning on Ecclesiastes (9:5) for our doctrine is like leaning on a reed. The fate of the dead is described by Christ Himself, so that is where one should go for the truth. The narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable but a revelation of the afterlife. And it clearly shows us that "the dead know nothing" does not present the truth.

Ecclesiastes simply shows us that a man without Christ lives a life of vanity. It is another road sign pointing to the Gospel, not a book on which Christians base their doctrines.

For the living know that they shall die: TRUE
but the dead know not any thing, FALSE
neither have they any more a reward; FALSE
for the memory of them is forgotten. FALSE

The "reward" of the unsaved dead is torment in Hades. Luke 16:23,24

God does not "forget" the unsaved dead. They are resurrected at the resurrection of damnation, and then consigned to the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:10-15.

The resurrection of damnation? The GWT judgment is not just damnation. Only those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into hell fire.

It is a silly notion that books would be opened and no names were found therein...that kind of futility is only found in this world not with the Lord.

 

[Taken]

I thought to start this thread since I find no one considers this eternal destiny in their calculations as to possible outcomes for humanity.

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Wandering in the wilderness is nothing new...but into eternity?

Eternal darkness...or outer darkness... this is a destiny that Jesus spoke of.

Outer darkness is a place referred to three times in the Gospel of Matthew (8:12, 22:13, and 25:30) into which a person may be "cast out", and where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Before I go into more detail...I leave it open for others to comment on this subject. it isn't something discussed very much if at all. But it should be.

Outer darkness/utter darkness is complete and eternal separation From God,( who is pure and complete Light.)

Weeping is the inner expression, Gnashing of teeth is the outer expression of feelings one will experience, when one who has Rejected our Lord God, realizes their fate of complete and eternal separation from God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, except when it comes to Post #66 (aptly numbered). It is an evil thing to attribute evil to the Lord. This is the attitude of Satanists towards the True and Living God, and to see it being parroted by those supposedly professing Christ is deeply disturbing.

On this we agree 100%! As upsetting as the notion of an eternal hell can be, I find it more upsetting that: 1- we would ascribe to God perfect love that is not completed by his perfect justice (which would in fact disprove his love, would it not?), and 2-people seemingly find it easy ignoring and rearranging scripture to suit their 'state of comfort', rather than being concerned with God's truth.
No...if we're upset by the idea of hell, we need to take comfort in the fact that God does know all things, and he is good, and just. Why we would decide to try and rest in our own logic, I will never understand.

 

[Naomi25]

If you consider the Greek word translated as "cast them into hell" G:5020, ταρταρώσας, which only appears once n the New testament, is translated on the BibleHub page: - <2 Peter 2:4 Interlinear: For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,>, as "having cast [them] to the deepest abyss," which is in line with Isaiah 24:21-22

Isaiah 24:21-22

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
​

This also fits with Rev 20: 1-3 where we are told that Satan is locked up in the Bottomless Pit for a period of 1,000 years.

Another Greek Root, which is embedded into three Greek words is G:1067 <Strong's Greek: 1067. γέεννα (geenna) -- Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly> Where γέενναν is found in the following 8 verses: - Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 18:9, Mark 9:43, 9:45, 9:47, Luke 12:5, γεέννῃ, is found in verse Matthew 10:28 and γεέννης is found in the following 3 verses: - Matthew 23:15, 23:33, James 3:6.

Simply doing a search for the word "hell" in a particular English translation can cause the wrong conclusion with respect to the verses found.

We need to be a little more carefull in our examination/study of the scriptures.

Shalom

So...to be clear...are you objecting to the fact that I said that the "darkness" is the same as hell...or that I haven't gone through and in precise enough detail listed the possible sequences of hellish punishments that God has in store for all that oppose him?

 

[Hidden In Him]

On this we agree 100%! As upsetting as the notion of an eternal hell can be, I find it more upsetting that: 1- we would ascribe to God perfect love that is not completed by his perfect justice (which would in fact disprove his love, would it not?), and 2-people seemingly find it easy ignoring and rearranging scripture to suit their 'state of comfort', rather than being concerned with God's truth.
No...if we're upset by the idea of hell, we need to take comfort in the fact that God does know all things, and he is good, and just. Why we would decide to try and rest in our own logic, I will never understand.

Very good post. I mentioned Satanism in response to Harvest because I am well aware of the arguments the enemy uses to discredit Christianity. To me, alarm bells should go off the minute what I say sounds a lot like what Satan's servants are saying.

As for the teaching of the church down through the ages, I'm not wild about the idea of eternal torment either, but I believe He is "the Only Wise God," and therefore fully trust that there are good reasons for everything He does and will do. His ways are higher than our ways, so I take Him at His word rather than redefining words like "torment" or phrases like "gnashing of teeth" to mean nothing simply because I don't like their implications.

 

[bbyrd009]

As for the teaching of the church down through the ages, I'm not wild about the idea of eternal torment either, but I believe He is "the Only Wise God," and therefore fully trust that there are good reasons for everything He does and will do. His ways are higher than our ways, so I take Him at His word rather than redefining words like "torment" or phrases like "gnashing of teeth" to mean nothing simply because I don't like their implications.

imo the biggest lie there is that Hegelian dialecticism has been introduced, and the truth of one in torment right next to another in paradise, both existing in the exact same conditions, is occluded; as the story of Meshack et al illustrates?

 

[Hidden In Him]

imo the biggest lie there is that Hegelian dialecticism has been introduced, and the truth of one in torment right next to another in paradise, both existing in the exact same conditions, is occluded; as the story of Meshack et al illustrates?

LoL. There are a few Calvin and Hobbes cartoons I'm partial to as well.

This is one of them:

 

[Jay Ross]

So...to be clear...are you objecting to the fact that I said that the "darkness" is the same as hell...or that I haven't gone through and in precise enough detail listed the possible sequences of hellish punishments that God has in store for all that oppose him?

Perhaps it is best to consider that we can be living in darkness without being in Hell.

Matthew 4 : 14-17: - 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned."
​

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
​

Or perhaps these verses: -

Matthew 6: 22-23: - 22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

In the above two scriptural references, the indication is that the living can know the darkness where they have a lack of the knowledge of God and as such they have no relationship with God.

The outer darkness on the other hand can be describing a place like the Bottomless pit, which 2 Peter 2:4 does as the prison for the wicked fallen heavenly hosts.

The abyss is the place where after our physical death all go to but there is a deep chasm between the Saints and the rest of humanity where people know of their outcome and have to wait the anointed time for their outcome.

The question that I have not yet answered for myself is, does the condition of being in the "outer darkness" only occur after our physical death?

Shalom

 

[Nancy]

Perhaps it is best to consider that we can be living in darkness without being in Hell.

Matthew 4 : 14-17: - 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned."
​

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."​

Or perhaps these verses: -

Matthew 6: 22-23: - 22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

In the above two scriptural references, the indication is that the living can know the darkness where they have a lack of the knowledge of God and as such they have no relationship with God.

The outer darkness on the other hand can be describing a place like the Bottomless pit, which 2 Peter 2:4 does as the prison for the wicked fallen heavenly hosts.

The abyss is the place where after our physical death all go to but there is a deep chasm between the Saints and the rest of humanity where people know of their outcome and have to wait the anointed time for their outcome.

The question that I have not yet answered for myself is, does the condition of being in the "outer darkness" only occur after our physical death?

Shalom

Hi Jay,
I just want to ask one thing, when you say: "The abyss is the place where after our physical death all go to but there is a deep chasm between the Saints and the rest of humanity where people know of their outcome and have to wait the anointed time for their outcome."
...Do you mean Abraham's bosom?

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,
I just want to ask one thing, when you say: "The abyss is the place where after our physical death all go to but there is a deep chasm between the Saints and the rest of humanity where people know of their outcome and have to wait the anointed time for their outcome."
...Do you mean Abraham's bosom?

That is what Jesus described in that parable. That was one side of the chasm in the abyss, the other side was where the rest of Humanity will lodge to await the anointedd time of their judgement.

Shalom

 

[Naomi25]

Perhaps it is best to consider that we can be living in darkness without being in Hell.

Matthew 4 : 14-17: - 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned."
​

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."​

Or perhaps these verses: -

Matthew 6: 22-23: - 22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

In the above two scriptural references, the indication is that the living can know the darkness where they have a lack of the knowledge of God and as such they have no relationship with God.

The outer darkness on the other hand can be describing a place like the Bottomless pit, which 2 Peter 2:4 does as the prison for the wicked fallen heavenly hosts.

The abyss is the place where after our physical death all go to but there is a deep chasm between the Saints and the rest of humanity where people know of their outcome and have to wait the anointed time for their outcome.

The question that I have not yet answered for myself is, does the condition of being in the "outer darkness" only occur after our physical death?

Shalom

Perhaps it is best to consider that we can be living in darkness without being in Hell.

Matthew 4 : 14-17: - 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned."
​

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."​

Or perhaps these verses: -

Matthew 6: 22-23: - 22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

In the above two scriptural references, the indication is that the living can know the darkness where they have a lack of the knowledge of God and as such they have no relationship with God.

The outer darkness on the other hand can be describing a place like the Bottomless pit, which 2 Peter 2:4 does as the prison for the wicked fallen heavenly hosts.

The abyss is the place where after our physical death all go to but there is a deep chasm between the Saints and the rest of humanity where people know of their outcome and have to wait the anointed time for their outcome.

The question that I have not yet answered for myself is, does the condition of being in the "outer darkness" only occur after our physical death?

Shalom

So...the later, then. Look, it's cool if you want to stress the differences the bible makes between the first death, the second one, the abyss, the pit, the lake of fire and really get into all that. But that wasn't really what I was talking about...so, I'm not sure I really deserved a "check what you're talking about before you post" post. All I was trying to point out was a link between the references of the outer darkness to hell. Which the Peter verse did...regardless of when in the timeline you want to jump to. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I feel like you scolded me for handing in a 2 sentence letter because it wasn't a thesis. Well...no, of course it wasn't, it wasn't meant to be!

 

[Stranger]

The Gospel of Matthew is the Gospel of the Kingdom. It presents Jesus Christ as King of the Jews, Messiah, King of Israel. In (Matt. 5-7) The King has come and is laying down the laws of that Kingdom as promised to Israel in the Old Testament. This is what we know as the Sermon on the Mount.

From (Matt. 8-12) you will see the whole course of Israel's response to that offer. The King has come and is offering Himself to Israel as her King. Israel rejects this offer as Jesus her King. The King rejects Israel. As (John 1:11) says, "He came unto His own, and his own received him not."

So here in (Matt. 8) Jesus is coming down from the Sermon on the Mount after giving the laws of the Kingdom. And immediately He begins healing many. Why? Because this is expected of the Messiah to come. See (Is. 29:18-19), (Is. 35:5-6). So, Jesus heals a leper. (Matt. 8:1-4). He heals the Centurion's servant. (Matt. 8:5-13). He heals Peter's wife. (Matt. 8:14-15). He heals all who are brought to Him. (Matt. 8:16-17).

Thus, Jesus has preached the Kingdom to Israel, (Matt. 4). He has laid down the principles of Kingdom living in (Matt. 5-7). And Jesus Himself is doing the works of Messiah, the King. (Matt. 8) Yet Israel as a nation will reject Him.

This causes the response from Jesus concerning the faith of the Centurion in asking Jesus to heal Him. (Matt. 10-12) "...I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Israel rejects, but the Gentiles receive Jesus. Israel is the children of the Kingdom. But they reject Him who is the Light. Thus they are rejected by Him, and are blind and in darkness to this day. They are in outer darkness away from the Light. This is their condition on the earth today as a nation. To every individual Jew who dies in this condition, then he will go into eternity in that condition which of course will involve hell and the lake of fire. To the Jew who receives Christ as his Messiah, Saviour, then he is born-again, part of the Church, as the Jewish remnant.

I believe outer darkness speaks to the relation one is in concerning the 'Kingdom of heaven' which pertains to the kingdom of God on earth. The kingdom on earth exists at this time in 'mystery form'. See (Matt. 13:11)

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

LoL. There are a few Calvin and Hobbes cartoons I'm partial to as well.

This is one of them:

ha, that one is a fave

love the inference too lol, makes it even more priceless!

Whoso is digging a pit falleth into it, And the roller of a stone, to him it turneth.

 

[Episkopos]

"Stranger, post: 435871, member: 7282"]The Gospel of Matthew is the Gospel of the Kingdom. It presents Jesus Christ as King of the Jews, Messiah, King of Israel. In (Matt. 5-7) The King has come and is laying down the laws of that Kingdom as promised to Israel in the Old Testament. This is what we know as the Sermon on the Mount.

That is a popular misconception. Luke also lists the sermon on the mount and he uses the term "kingdom of God." Perhaps the terminology is different but it is the same thing. Don't confuse terminology with the subject. There is enough confusion on this already.

From (Matt. 8-12) you will see the whole course of Israel's response to that offer. The King has come and is offering Himself to Israel as her King. Israel rejects this offer as Jesus her King. The King rejects Israel. As (John 1:11) says, "He came unto His own, and his own received him not."

So here in (Matt. 8) Jesus is coming down from the Sermon on the Mount after giving the laws of the Kingdom. And immediately He begins healing many. Why? Because this is expected of the Messiah to come. See (Is. 29:18-19), (Is. 35:5-6). So, Jesus heals a leper. (Matt. 8:1-4). He heals the Centurion's servant. (Matt. 8:5-13). He heals Peter's wife. (Matt. 8:14-15). He heals all who are brought to Him. (Matt. 8:16-17).

Thus, Jesus has preached the Kingdom to Israel, (Matt. 4). He has laid down the principles of Kingdom living in (Matt. 5-7). And Jesus Himself is doing the works of Messiah, the King. (Matt. 8) Yet Israel as a nation will reject Him.

This causes the response from Jesus concerning the faith of the Centurion in asking Jesus to heal Him. (Matt. 10-12) "...I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Israel rejects, but the Gentiles receive Jesus. Israel is the children of the Kingdom. But they reject Him who is the Light. Thus they are rejected by Him, and are blind and in darkness to this day. They are in outer darkness away from the Light. This is their condition on the earth today as a nation. To every individual Jew who dies in this condition, then he will go into eternity in that condition which of course will involve hell and the lake of fire. To the Jew who receives Christ as his Messiah, Saviour, then he is born-again, part of the Church, as the Jewish remnant.

I believe outer darkness speaks to the relation one is in concerning the 'Kingdom of heaven' which pertains to the kingdom of God on earth. The kingdom on earth exists at this time in 'mystery form'. See (Matt. 13:11)

Stranger

I think you are downplaying the spiritual nature of the kingdom....where all people are the same to God.

 

[Taken]

Hidden in Him; Naomi25; Jay Ross; Nancy

Man Before Christ Jesus Appeared;
...
(Applies to all men, however to Hebrews and Jews specific here, Under the Law, and those today who REMAIN under the Law).
Hebrew Believers; Jewish Believers; WHO,
Physically died;
Physical body was buried.
Living soul departed the Body.
...
Living soul went to Hell.
...
In Hell, there was a Division.
Saved Living souls went TO the side of Hell "in the Light", "With" the Lords presence, identified as "the Tree of Life", or otherwise,
WITH the Lord who sustained and KEPT unto them LIFE (from God), IN their Living Soul.
Such a man Was called, IN Abraham's bosom.
(Ie with Abraham), IN Comfort, IN Paradise.

The Other Side of Hell, (which in the OT, was for the most part applicable to the Gentiles) was prepared for Living Souls, departed their Dead Bodies, WHO rejected God. Their Souls, were Separated from God, IN Darkness, IN Torment (being Separated from God and ALL of His Light, Goodness, Comforts, Beauty, Blessings, etc.)

^^ Hell REMAINS today.

After Jesus Arrived on Earth and WAS crucified. His Body was buried. His Living Soul went TO "PARADISE", and there preached to THOSE IN Paradise. Their WAITING (for the Lord to COME and GO was being accomplished....as He IS FIRST in all things)...That their Living Souls could NOW/then be escorted TO Heaven...TO WAIT for their Bodies to Be resurrected and Changed.

We KNOW from the knowledge in Scripture;
Mankind's Earthly Body, has it's own LIFE, ie (BLOOD).
And that God requires the Life (blood) of Every Man.
Further that Every Living Body has LIFE from God (via His Breath), call a Living Soul.
Further that Every Living Body has a Natural spirit, called his TRUTH in His Heart.

Every man IS BORN IN DARKNESS, which IS Separation FROM God, (WHO is LIGHT).

Every man has Opportunity to hear, learn, believe, be blessed with the gift of measures of Faith, WHILE they are hearing, learning, believing (ie Being enlightened).

Every man has Opportunity to Continue hearing, learning, believing, receiving INCREASED FAITH (a gift from God, for their EFFORT to Continue).

AT ANY TIME such a man can FREELY Choose;
TO:
Walk away, Stop continuing being enlightened, Stop believing, Stop following, AND STOP Receiving Faith from God, and they be called Fallen from Faith.
OR;
A man can FREELY Choose;
TO:
Give His "LIFE"
TO:
The Lord God Through Christ Jesus Our Lord, in which case;
The Man Becomes FORGIVEN for his Disbelief.,
(Ie SIN AGAINST GOD)
The Man Comes OUT OF THE DARKNESS and INTO THE LIGHT.
The Man's Body becomes Crucified, Washed, Sanctified, Reserved, his sins Covered with Gods Light (that is no longer seen or remembered), Kept with Christ for that mans day of resurrection and his Body raised in a glorified body, for that man to NOW for the first time TO SEE God, AS HE IS (without Cover).
The Man's Soul becomes Restored.
The Man receives a circumcised NEW Heart.
The Man receives Gods SEED.
The Man receives his spirit reborn from Gods SEED.
The REBORN spirit is a NEW TRUTH; Gods TRUTH.
The man Receives the SPIRIT OF GOD "WITHIN" Him Forever.
The man, his body, his living soul, his spirit; IS OUT OF THE DARKNESS and FOREVER IN THE LIGHT.
(THIS is the FLIP, so to speak. Meaning the Gentiles for the most part are the PEOPLE who are ACCEPTING Christ Jesus, as the Messiah, while MANY Jews IN Jesus' day on earth ACCEPTED Him THEN, but today, VERY FEW Jews DO, and thus primarily the Jews who Continue IN FAITH, do so, as their fathers did, UNDER THE LAW, and WORKS, to accomplish their souls be Saved.)

TODAY; (since Christ's Soul appeared and left Hell;

When A man WHO HAS elected to Give his LIFE TO GOD, via Christ...
Such man's:
Body that experiences physical death..
...his body is buried.
...his living soul goes to heaven.
...his quickened (born again) spirit goes to heaven.

(Gods Spirit within them, Paradise, are all IN Heaven, where Saved souls of dead bodies and Quickened spirits of dead bodies WAIT for their Bodies to be raised and glorified).
ALL have OVERCOME the DARKNESS and EVIL ONE.
ALL ARE forever "SEALED" unto God.
ALL ARE forever "WITH" and "IN" the Lord, and forever, The Lord "WITH" and "IN" them.

Regardless of HOW LONG a saved and born again man's BODY continues living it's own Blood Life...such a saved and born again man, IS NO LONGER "OF" this WORLD (which IS STILL STEEPED IN Darkness,)
and slated FOR It's (ie the world), purification WITH FIRE, (overcoming it's own Darkness), AFTER ALL People WHO ELECT to Come out of the Darkness and INTO THE Light...Have Become Accomplished (ie saved and born again).

In Short...The Habitat (earth) "OF" the saved and born again (those IN the LIGHT), SHALL be "restored" AFTER the "reconciliation" of those WHO SHALL OCCUPY the "restored" earth.

Those men WHO NEVER ELECT, to come out of the Darkness (AGAINST belief IN GOD, as they were naturally born), and INTO THE LIGHT, (ie the Lord)...their fate is to REMAIN in the Darkness Eternally.

God IS JUST. God IS FAITHFUL. God IS TRUE.
Any man WHO Elects to Come into the Light;
The Lord WILL Effect the mans Election/choice.
Any man WHO Elects to Remain in Darkness;
The Lord WILL Effect the mans Election/choice.
(Hearing, Learning, Being enlightened, receiving measures of Faith " is NOT making a choice, " "is NOT calling on the Lord making a commitment", "is NOT receiving Salvation or the Seed of God" )

HELL is still ACTIVE TODAY;
1) FOR living souls of men; (departed their dead bodies) ie Jews, (who Continue being UNDER THE LAW), who believe IN GOD, IN THEIR Messiah, but do not accept JESUS as their Messiah, still ON THE Comfort side, Life of their soul, sustained by the Tree of Life.
THEY AWAIT resurrection OF their saved souls, their bodies, their spirits to be quickened, (occuring before the opening of the Fifth Seal during the Tribulation).
2) and Rejectors of God, their living soul on the SIDE of Darkness, without God, for living souls, that have departed their dead bodies, OF MEN, WHO freely Elected to REJECT God, awaiting Judgement.

JUDGEMENT -
Their dead bodies raised, (void of its blood, ie no life in their bodies).
Their dead bodies sent to hell.
Their "UNSAVED" living soul IMPARTED into their dead body's.
Their dead body coming BACK into a living state.
Their JUDGE BEFORE THEM. Ie the Lord.
They "SEE" and BELIEVE and BOW to Him.
(They believe, Yet HAVE NO FAITH!)
The Books OPENED.
Their NAME does not appear among the Faithful.
Their Sentence Commences.
LIFE via Gods Breath, Departs their Living soul, and returns to God, WHO IS LIFE (and ALL Life belongs to Him).
NOW such men ARE;
VOID of a living body.
VOID of a living soul.
Never received Gods SPIRIT to bring their own spirit into Living.
Their Sentence IS "COMPLETE" and "UTTER" Darkness; VOID OF ANY LIGHT "of, with, or in" God.
Their Lifeless, Body and Soul DESTROYED via FIRE. (Via God WHO IS LIFE, LIGHT, A CONSUMING FIRE)

Their TEMPORARY Torment is Their Living soul, departed out of their Dead body, and their Living soul being separated from God and ALL His comforts and blessings and beauty.
Their FOREVER Torment is Knowing AND UNDERStANDING the TRUTH they REJECTED; and their fate to ETERNALLY BE SEPARATED from God, Truth, Peace, Life, Light.

A natural man, abhors, conflict, contention, diseases, pain, suffering, etc. And men consistently attemp to discover ways to PROLONG their natural life....Yet somehow can not fathom, how it is spiritual TORMENT to forever be spiritually Separated from God FOREVER.

ALSO ~
The conflict and debate of PRE-MID-Rapture...
Fully depends ON WHO and WHAT and individual HAS Chosen.

A Gentile IN Christ, HAS ALREADY become Accomplished; Forgiven, Saved, Born Again, OUT of the Darkness, no longer OF THIS WORLD. Christ's CHURCH, and FULLY Prepared TO be resurrected IN a glorified body UP to meet the Lord IN THE AIR, BEFORE the Tribulation commences.

A Jew Remaining Faithful to God, ACCORDING TO and UNDER the LAW, WHO "continues" in Belief until the end of his natural life; his soul is SAVED, but his Spirit NOT YET QUICKENED, (ie born again, which is ONLY Accomplished THROUGH CHRIST).

Their UNDERSTANDING of Christ is REVEALED
Through Mininsters of the Lord, called the 144,000 thousand sent to minister TO THE THEM the TRUTH OF CHRIST JESUS. The Jews WHO ACCEPT that TRUTH; Receive their quickened spirit, and THEY become resurrected;
Saved soul, Quickened spirit, and glorified body, white robe and GO TO HEAVEN, to praise and worship God....
This occurs MID trib, before the opening of the Fifth Seal....
They are NOT meeting the Lord IN THE AIR, as do THOSE WHO, are CHRIST"S CHURCH,
Mostly Gentiles, WHO became saved and born again (out of the darkness) PRYOR to the Tribulation and CALLED up to MEET their Lord Jesus, WITH His POWER, (as we know, Jesus the MAN shall descend to the clouds, WITH his Power, which IS Christ.)
THEY meeting/ SEEING their Lord as He is; a Gift for having BELIEVED and Given their life TO Christ Jesus, without SEEING, without UNDERSTANDING.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Episkopos]

I don't think people are getting that outer darkness is itself an eternal destiny...quite apart from the lake of fire.

"...to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever"

When religion is ramped up...reading skills diminish very quickly.

 

[bbyrd009]

This is one of them

i'm considering ways to illuminate the difference here, but i have to make assumptions to do so on my own, as it is already obvious that you could ask me (or google) for any definitions you aren't sure of (unlike Calvin), and "Hegelian" we already have a couple threads on; "an implied winner and loser" is a decent working definition i guess, note how i am now implied as a loser? So see that you are intimately acquainted with "Hegelian dialectic" whether you know it by that term or not, and fwiw i would love to have been able to pick a less, um, esoteric term; there just isn't one