Outer Darkness
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
To this point....that is off topic...
I see this reference to:
A great house being; any house where men "committed' to the Lord are IN such house...
Be the house...called a Temple, Church, a private Home.
They, (because they are committed) are equaled to something of Value, that has been Purified, thus the Honor, ...using Gold and Silver as an example.
However ALSO in the same house are men WHO ARE NOT "committed" to the Lord...
They, while IN the House have made no confession of "commitment"...and are equaled to something that shall turn to dust and ash, void of purification and honor.
God Bless,
Taken
Hey dude, IF you are feeling MOCKED, that's on you. You can credit yourself for how you feel. I said thanks for sharing your thoughts and the thoughts of others.....but eh, changes nothing for me....AND THAT...MADE YOU FEEL MOCKED. I FIND "THAT" amusing.
Oh good grief....stop babbling on with your accusations, name calling and feelings.....
You want to disagree with ANYTHING I have said......Identify it., quote it, disagree with it.
Anyone can babble on and on and make accusations....Like you have....
You want to preach all men have to make a CHOICE "between" The Lord Jesus and Barabbas'....
That's YOU.
I acknowledged your teaching, thanked you for sharing your teaching...I don't have to Accept your teaching.
My Lord gave me the Option to Accept Him "above" ALL other "gods" and ALL other "people" and "created" things... there was NO caveat of someone named "Barabbas".
Thank you for Revealing your immaturity.... that if one does not follow YOUR TEACHING....they have not overcome.... LOL
Dude....you need to learn...YOU ARE not the one who dictates WHO HAS or HAS NOT OVERCOME.
You should try using that KEY.
You are the one accusing, name calling, and have Pride in YOUR THOUGHTS....That is about YOU, not me.
You might try Looking in a Mirror, while pointing your finger and speaking all "your" thoughts and accusations that apply to "yourself", before trying to Pretend you are the all knowing Judge over others.
So why not put on your big boy pants, and identify something specific I have said you disagree with, without all the namecalling and accusations, that babes do?
God Bless,
Taken
And the World is Full of men who like to Make up Acronyms and Wag their tongue, that their clever Acronym Applies to anyone but themselves.
LOL.
I believe it is in reference to the house of God. As in..."judgment begins at the house of God"
I don't think anyone would discern any mockery in your response. You are truly sober minded here.
Hey, can you skip past dwelling on your accusations and identify something specific you disagree with what I have said....Before you went off on the namecalling and accusations?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Here is you quote Taken. In particular what I have highlighted.
Disagree.
Living souls IN a living body;
Have opportunity...
To believe in God, In Christ.
To Accept Salvation Jesus' Offering of Salvation... Now or not.
Some Accept; Jesus' Offering; and become saved now, and Are Christ's Church;
Some continue in "The Law"; and become saved at the end of their physical life, "according to" their adherence To THE LAW, as "they" Elected To Believe IN God and serve God, "according To" THE LAW, of their Forefathers...who became Gods "early" saints.
Some completely;
Reject God
Reject Christ Jesus
And upon "their physical bodily death", their living soul is "CAST" TO OUTER Darkness.
Completely VOID, of Gods Light.
Hell.
A place THEIR living soul experiences, the "agony" of BEING...separated from Gods Light/Glory/Comfort/Opportunity.
THAT is a consequence, for such a man TO NOT elect to OVERCOME darkness.
THAT is not JUDGEMENT DAY.
SENTENCING.....comes AFTER Judgement Day.
SENTENCING....has to do with "DESTRUCTION" ..of the soul and body.
God Bless,
Taken
Taken said: ↑
Disagree.
Living souls IN a living body;
Have opportunity...
To believe in God, In Christ.
To Accept Salvation Jesus' Offering of Salvation... Now or not.
Some Accept; Jesus' Offering; and become saved now, and Are Christ's Church;
Some continue in "The Law"; and become saved at the end of their physical life, "according to" their adherence To THE LAW, as "they" Elected To Believe IN God and serve God, "according To" THE LAW, of their Forefathers...who became Gods "early" saints.
Some completely;
Reject God
Reject Christ Jesus
And upon "their physical bodily death", their living soul is "CAST" TO OUTER Darkness.
Completely VOID, of Gods Light.
Hell.
A place THEIR living soul experiences, the "agony" of BEING...separated from Gods Light/Glory/Comfort/Opportunity.
THAT is a consequence, for such a man TO NOT elect to OVERCOME darkness.
THAT is not JUDGEMENT DAY.
SENTENCING.....comes AFTER Judgement Day.
SENTENCING....has to do with "DESTRUCTION" ..of the soul and body.
God Bless,
Taken
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Notice the words 'perish' and 'eternal life'. These are juxtaposed.
The word 'perish' has the same end result as destroy or die.
The words 'eternal life' in scripture never imply an existence in misery.
To make these terms mean anything else than the obvious is propagating Satans lie which makes the propagator a false prophet.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Total destruction means annihilation. You can be certain of that, no caveats.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Probably the text most well known of the scriptures. Is the glaringly obvious missed? The words 'perish' and 'eternal life' are juxtaposed.
They mean exactly what they say. Perish is non existence, death, no life whatsoever, removed from the presence of God who sustains life. Hell is the consuming process that will purify the earth and when all is consumed (gone, destroyed, perished) the earth will be recreated. Revelation 21, check it out!
Eternal life in scripture is always used in the context of no form of diminishment whatsoever.
When Jesus said, he who believes in me has passed from death to life he did not mean that those who did not believe on him would live forever in eternal misery. Whew, one has to be blind not to see this.
John 5:24 'Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life'.
Death and sin is an enemy, they are bedfellows. This enemy will be destroyed along with those who love it. It will not be tucked into some corner of the Universe where its adherents live eternally in a miserable tortured state. Revelation 21:8 That view is an element of heathenism which has been adopted into the Church. It is a bald faced lie.
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death'
Jesus did not die to perpetuate the eternal suffering of those who reject him. This should be as obvious as a train smash.
He died to destroy sin and death!
And upon "their physical bodily death", their living soul is "CAST" TO OUTER Darkness.
Completely VOID, of Gods Light.
Hell.
A place THEIR living soul experiences, the "agony" of BEING...separated from Gods Light/Glory/Comfort/Opportunity.
Okay.
And how would you describe the experience of an unsaved soul in hell?
God Bless,
Taken
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Hell is/are the final purging fires that will purify the Earth. Everything that loves and creates sin will be destroyed including death.
Folk who have rejected the offer of Life, ie, those who who do not want forgiveness, those who are in determined opposition to God will reap what they've sown. With sin they have sown death. They will be punished according to their works. These will perish in the final purging fires of earth.
The proclamation by Jesus describes this vividly
Revelation 21:5-8
'He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.”
Out of interest, the first death is what we experience now. The scripture calls it a sleep because it is not final. All, at the appointed time will be resurrected. For those to life it will be eternal, for those to death it will be the end of the road. The scripture calls this the second death as described above. They will be consumed along with the Devil and his angels in the fires (the lake of fire/hell) which burns till there is no more to burn. They will perish. The Earth is cleansed of everything that creates disfunction (sin and sinners).
Their torment will be in proportion to their rebellion. The lake of fire is the earth wrapped in flame and when all is consumed and there is no more to consume. God then will recreate the earth as described in Revelation 21.
Last edited:
I do not see perish and destroy as the same.
My view is;
Perish is death,
....a Vessel VOID of Life
Or
....a Vessel separated From God.
Or both.
Destroy is the burning to ash, a vessel, VOID of Life And Separated From God.
God Bless,
Taken
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It is a play on words you are pursuing Taken, to justify a view that is not supported by scripture (the word of God)
A dangerous manoeuvre.
Last edited:
@Episkopos
Epi, I still do not know your true position on your thread for Outer Darkness (OD) based on your writings here. And I noticed you did not give much credit to folks that really had valuable inputs like especially, @Stranger @GodsGrace , @Taken and @VictoryinJesus I thought they had insights that might have refined your view of OD.
Let me explain: There are 3 passages in Matthew that speaks to OD as you said. Besides this you kept on with the two Jesus,’ the Bema seat and the scapegoat sent off wandering in the wilderness, the wandering stars and the blackness of darkness. Can you logically and plainly relate all these ideas from scripture into one cohesive thought? Curious minds would like to know like myself.
Anyway, that aside I believe @Stranger came the closest to using scripture to answer your OP. His was a great launching pad for further development of your OP
He’s my short input to add to your OP, not that is 100 percent accurate. The first is similar to Stranger
(Mat 8:9) For I also am a man under authority, having under myself soldiers and I say to one: Go! And he goes. And to another: Come! And he comes. And to my servant: Do this! And he does it.
(Mat 8:10) When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him: Truly I say to you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
(Mat 8:11) And I say to you, that many shall come from the east and the west and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
(Mat 8:12) but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 8:13) And Jesus said to the centurion: Go your way. As you have believed, so it is done for you. And the servant was healed in that hour.
This means that the then current remaining Judahites of the earthly sons of the Kingdom who did not believe in Christ would die in their sins and go to the OD. Many other non-kingdom tribes will believe and possess the ’new’ Kingdom.
BL: IT is all about unbelievers that knew of salvation, yet not in Christ, that go to the OD, outside the new Kingdom.
(Mat 22:10) And those servants went out into the highways and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests.
(Mat 22:11) But when the king entered to see the guests, he saw there a man who was not wearing a wedding-garment.
(Mat 22:12) And he said to him: Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
(Mat 22:13) Then the king said to the servants: Bind him hand and foot and throw him outside into the darkness, where there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Wedding garments indicate true believers. This man had no wedding garment. He was a fake believer that thought to enter into the Kingdom his own way and not God’s way.
BL: IT is all about unbelievers again who knew of salvation and not in Christ, that go to the OD, outside the new Kingdom.
(Mat 25:14) For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants and delivered to them his goods.
(Mat 25:15) And to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one- to each according to his abilities; and he went on his journey.
(Mat 25:16) Immediately he that received the five talents went and traded with them and made another five talents.
(Mat 25:17) In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
(Mat 25:18) But he that received the one went away and dug in the earth and hid his lord's money.
(Mat 25:19) Now after a long time the lord of those servants came and made a reckoning with them.
(Mat 25:20) And he that received the five talents came and brought another five talents, saying: Lord, you gave me five talents. Look, I have gained another five talents.
(Mat 25:21) His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, so I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord!
(Mat 25:22) And also he that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, you gave me two talents. Look, I have gained another two talents.
(Mat 25:23) His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, so I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord!
(Mat 25:24) And also he that had received the one talent came and said: Lord, I knew you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed.
(Mat 25:25) And I was afraid and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Here, have what is yours.
(Mat 25:26) But his lord answered and said to him: You wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not scatter seed.
(Mat 25:27) You should have deposited my money with the bankers, so that on my return I would have collected my own money with interest.
(Mat 25:28) So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
(Mat 25:29) For to everyone that has shall be given, and he shall have abundance, but from him that has not, even what he has shall be taken away.
(Mat 25:30) And cast out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There, shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
The Bank/bench a place of trade and risk for increasing value, is the place where one places his initial faith (money/silver) out from his own will and trusts God’s will to increase his faith exponentially.
The servants that trusts in the Bank of increased faith therefore gains more faith. They see their master as loving, kind and understanding. They have faith in him. The servant with little faith does not trust his master and thinks he is cold, harsh and cruel. He believes in his own meager faith and hides it into himself, buries it in the place of the dead. This is the unbeliever. He is a disgrace and useless to his master.
BL: the unbeliever knowing about salvation although not in Christ, go to the OD, and not any true believer.
So, I cannot see where you might get the idea that some true believers go to the OD
Blessings,
APAK
Epi, I still do not know your true position on your thread for Outer Darkness (OD) based on your writings here. And I noticed you did not give much credit to folks that really had valuable inputs like especially, @Stranger @GodsGrace , @Taken and @VictoryinJesus I thought they had insights that might have refined your view of OD.
Let me explain: There are 3 passages in Matthew that speaks to OD as you said. Besides this you kept on with the two Jesus,’ the Bema seat and the scapegoat sent off wandering in the wilderness, the wandering stars and the blackness of darkness. Can you logically and plainly relate all these ideas from scripture into one cohesive thought? Curious minds would like to know like myself.
Anyway, that aside I believe @Stranger came the closest to using scripture to answer your OP. His was a great launching pad for further development of your OP
He’s my short input to add to your OP, not that is 100 percent accurate. The first is similar to Stranger
(Mat 8:9) For I also am a man under authority, having under myself soldiers and I say to one: Go! And he goes. And to another: Come! And he comes. And to my servant: Do this! And he does it.
(Mat 8:10) When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him: Truly I say to you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
(Mat 8:11) And I say to you, that many shall come from the east and the west and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
(Mat 8:12) but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 8:13) And Jesus said to the centurion: Go your way. As you have believed, so it is done for you. And the servant was healed in that hour.
This means that the then current remaining Judahites of the earthly sons of the Kingdom who did not believe in Christ would die in their sins and go to the OD. Many other non-kingdom tribes will believe and possess the ’new’ Kingdom.
BL: IT is all about unbelievers that knew of salvation, yet not in Christ, that go to the OD, outside the new Kingdom.
(Mat 22:10) And those servants went out into the highways and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was filled with guests.
(Mat 22:11) But when the king entered to see the guests, he saw there a man who was not wearing a wedding-garment.
(Mat 22:12) And he said to him: Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.
(Mat 22:13) Then the king said to the servants: Bind him hand and foot and throw him outside into the darkness, where there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Wedding garments indicate true believers. This man had no wedding garment. He was a fake believer that thought to enter into the Kingdom his own way and not God’s way.
BL: IT is all about unbelievers again who knew of salvation and not in Christ, that go to the OD, outside the new Kingdom.
(Mat 25:14) For it is as when a man, going into another country, called his own servants and delivered to them his goods.
(Mat 25:15) And to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one- to each according to his abilities; and he went on his journey.
(Mat 25:16) Immediately he that received the five talents went and traded with them and made another five talents.
(Mat 25:17) In like manner he also that received the two gained other two.
(Mat 25:18) But he that received the one went away and dug in the earth and hid his lord's money.
(Mat 25:19) Now after a long time the lord of those servants came and made a reckoning with them.
(Mat 25:20) And he that received the five talents came and brought another five talents, saying: Lord, you gave me five talents. Look, I have gained another five talents.
(Mat 25:21) His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, so I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord!
(Mat 25:22) And also he that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, you gave me two talents. Look, I have gained another two talents.
(Mat 25:23) His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a few things, so I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord!
(Mat 25:24) And also he that had received the one talent came and said: Lord, I knew you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed.
(Mat 25:25) And I was afraid and went away and hid your talent in the earth. Here, have what is yours.
(Mat 25:26) But his lord answered and said to him: You wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not scatter seed.
(Mat 25:27) You should have deposited my money with the bankers, so that on my return I would have collected my own money with interest.
(Mat 25:28) So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
(Mat 25:29) For to everyone that has shall be given, and he shall have abundance, but from him that has not, even what he has shall be taken away.
(Mat 25:30) And cast out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There, shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
The Bank/bench a place of trade and risk for increasing value, is the place where one places his initial faith (money/silver) out from his own will and trusts God’s will to increase his faith exponentially.
The servants that trusts in the Bank of increased faith therefore gains more faith. They see their master as loving, kind and understanding. They have faith in him. The servant with little faith does not trust his master and thinks he is cold, harsh and cruel. He believes in his own meager faith and hides it into himself, buries it in the place of the dead. This is the unbeliever. He is a disgrace and useless to his master.
BL: the unbeliever knowing about salvation although not in Christ, go to the OD, and not any true believer.
So, I cannot see where you might get the idea that some true believers go to the OD
Blessings,
APAK
Hi APAK
Thank you for your interest.
One must glean the truth by putting together all the different lessons and thoughts throughout the entire counsel of God that is the bible.
God shows us things by comparisons.
Whenever we hear of the faithful...we also hear of the unfaithful. The ones who receive honour are contrasted to they who receive dishonour...etc.
So the subject is vast...far beyond the capacity of any one thread. We can look at the patterns though.
Judgment begins and the house of God. And this is to be a hard judgment. There will be rewards AND losses. The parable of the talents illustrates this. Daniel says...Many will awake...some to life and others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Now there are forces on Earth and also in heavenly places that would have us not understand the judgments of God. But woe to those who are at ease in Zion.
Yes. I believe it is so.
I don't understand your BL...?
Wedding garments indicates the saints...the Bride of Christ. The man with no wedding garment was a guest (inhabitant of the saved nations in the next age) who did not seat himself in the lower place when he entered a room. Therefore he was cast out with the workers of iniquity. All this is to serve as a warning.
What is BL?
The talent is a measure of grace. We all have different sized vessels/capacities. So then some of us receive more grace than others. Paul prayed for more grace for people. And we can go to God for more grace.
If we see the talent (grace) as God's righteousness to us....as a gift of grace...then we also need to grow ourselves into a maturity in righteousness. So we are being conformed to the character of Christ in this way.
Those who think that there is nothing to add to God's grace will bury their potential (talent) and remain as immature as when they were first called and given that initial grace.
But the talent is God's (HIS righteousness)...and He will take it back....leaving what we have done with it as OUR inheritance.
So then His righteousness cultivates a righteousness in us...that becomes our own...the righteousness of saints. THIS is the wedding garment.
For more detail please visit my thread on "The Righteousness of God"...or else "the righteous".
Peace and grace to you.
John
Last edited:
As I conveyed...
I believe man is a vessel, 2 Tim 2:21
a form (body) of dust, Gen 2:7
God has created, Gen 2:3
a soul God has made, Isa 57:16
A soul with Gods Life, imparted into a mans form, via Gods Breath, Gen 2:7
Man has a natural spirit, (truth), in his heart,
Zech 12::1 / Prov 51:5
The carnal mind corrupts; the Form (body), the soul, the spirit of man, and that corruption maintains, "death", ie. separation from God. Rom 8:6
Death is separation from God, Isa 59:2
Sin against God results in Death, Rom 6:23
Mankind is naturally born in Sin, Psalm 515
God provides a WAY for mankind, To become Forgiven; and his form, his soul, his spirit, his Mind....to become MADE, anew.
1) confess sins, become forgiven. 1 John 1:9
2) God accepts a mans death payment for Sin, when a man is Crucified with Christ. Gal 2:20
3) God restoreth the soul, Psalms 23
4) He gives man HIS Seed, Gal 3:16
5) He gives man a New Heart, Ezek 18:31
6) He gives man a New Spirit, Ezek 18:31
7) He Seals the man unto Himself. 2 Cor 1:22
1) God gives life, and God takes life. Job 1:21
2) God offers eternal life, John 6:51, Eph 5:2,
Heb 10::10
3) The Vessel, (man, soul) that does not accept eternal Life God Offers, Remains Vessels, Dead/Separated from God. Isa 59:2
4) Vessels "Separated" from God;
the body in the grave Deut. 21:23
the living soul in hell Luke 16:22, Luke 16:23
Thus dead body's shall spend time IN the grave, separated from God.
Thus unsaved living souls shall spend time IN hell, separated from God.
THIS IS CALLED "DEATH".
This Death, began from the beginning of mankind, and shall continue until Judgement Day, WHEN all men shall be Judged...a Final Judgement....and Consequence.
The Consequence for the Death, for the Living Soul....
IS a WAITING Period of TIME IN Hell, separated FROM God....Luke 16
"AFTER" a waiting period; JUDGEMENT DAY commences.
Mal 4:1, Roman 2:5, 2:6
"AFTER" Judgement,
Life IS Departed from them, and returned to God.
"AFTER" Judgement, BOTH Unsaved Vessels (BODY and SOUL), are "DESTROYED".
Matt 10:28
"AFTER" Judgement, ALL DEATH, is Destroyed.
So, still you believe Death AND Destruction IS the SAME THING, when Scripture reveals they are Different Events ?
God Bless,
Taken
Similar threads
