PROPITIATION

[Doug]

Christ's blood sacrifice is the means by which God can be satisfied and appeased in forgiving our sins. His wrath is appeased and His justice is satisfied.


Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Christ Jesus has been set forth as a propitiation. God can be just and freely justify the sinner thru our faith in His blood sacrifice.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ's sacrifice provided forgivness for all sin but it is applied to those who believe the gospel.

Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

The same greek word is used for the mercyseat and for propitiation.

 

[Episkopos]

For God so hated the world? For God was so angry at the world?

This idea about Jesus taking on His Father's wrath is more and more being exposed as bogus.

Penal substitution? No.

Jesus took on the wrath of people. And He's still doing that today....as well as His followers.

For God so LOVED the world.....and His Son.

 

[Enoch111]

Penal substitution? No.

More unscriptural ideas from you. Not surprising. Take some time to study the matter, starting at Isaiah 53.

 

[Episkopos]

More unscriptural ideas from you. Not surprising. Take some time to study the matter, starting at Isaiah 53.

It figures that you think by hiding from God......that secures your salvation. Or that Jesus HIDES us from an angry God rather than giving us the power to be holy.

 

[H. Richard]

It figures that you think by hiding from God......that secures your salvation. Or that Jesus HIDES us from an angry God rather than giving us the power to be holy.

***

IMO Jesus doesn't give US the power to make ourselves Holy unless you are talking about faith in His work on the cross being the power. Faith in His shed blood makes us Holy (set apart). Man can not make himself Holy by what he does. Jesus does not make the flesh Holy. We worship God in the spirit, not the flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

***

IMO Jesus doesn't give US the power to make ourselves Holy unless you are talking about faith in His work on the cross being the power. Faith in His shed blood makes us Holy (set apart). Man can not make himself Holy by what he does. Jesus does not make the flesh Holy. We worship God in the spirit, not the flesh.

Not even close. We indeed worship God in the flesh....but not according to the flesh.

And without actual holiness in your walk...you shall not see God'

So then you are so far off here ...basing things on a human belief that has no power to transform you into a holy saint.

You really need to drop the religious posturing and look at reality. The truth transcends reality...it doesn't replace it.

 

[H. Richard]

Not even close. We indeed worship God in the flesh....but not according to the flesh.

And without actual holiness in your walk...you shall not see God'

So then you are so far off here ...basing things on a human belief that has no power to transform you into a holy saint.

You really need to drop the religious posturing and look at reality. The truth transcends reality...it doesn't replace it.

***

You said, :And without actual holiness in your walk...you shall not see God'". Man has no holiness in this walk except through faith in God's work Man is given the free gift of God's holiness.

I gave my reply but your reply is all about me and my short comings. Why did you do that? Isn't it to raise what you believe above what I believe?

You said, "basing things on a human belief that has no power to transform you into a holy saint" It is God that transform a person into a saint when they place their faith in His Son's work on the cross. Not when you work for it.

My salvation was given to me as a free gift and I do not have to work for it because the work was finished on the cross. Nor do I have to believe what you believe to be saved.

You say Jesus gave you the power to stop sinning but you know you still sin so where is your holiness in your walk? Or, are you claiming to be sinless? Your claim does not give God much credit for your salvation, you claim it for yourself. You want to talk about me and what I believe so now I can talk about you. I really don't want to do that but you bring it on yourself.

You said, "You really need to drop the religious posturing and look at reality". This shows that you judge me based on nothing I have said. I certainly do not believe in religions. It was the religious that persecuted the Prophets, that had Jesus murdered, killed Stephen and it is those of religion that persecute the children of God today.

Paul asked the question, " having began in the spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh." (Gal 3:3) I see in your ideas that you think a person is made perfect by their works of the flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

I gave my reply but your reply is all about me and my short comings. Why did you do that? Isn't it to raise what you believe above what I believe?

You said, "basing things on a human belief that has no power to transform you into a holy saint" It is God that transform a person into a saint when they place their faith in His Son's work on the cross. Not when you work for it.

I have to say the things I do because you only use conjecture.

Where in the bible does it say....place their faith in His Son's work on the cross.

How can I answer such an obvious bogus statement? Use the bible.

My salvation was given to me as a free gift and I do not have to work for it because the work was finished on the cross. Nor do I have to believe what you believe to be saved.

1. How was it given to you?
2. In what did it consist? (now we're getting to some important points)

If you would answer these Q's we can zero in on our communication problems.

You said, "You really need to drop the religious posturing and look at reality". This shows that you judge me based on nothing I have said. I certainly do not believe in religions. It was the religious that persecuted the Prophets, that had Jesus murdered, killed Stephen and it is those of religion that persecute the children of God today.

I agree. So let's get you firmly out of that category...by answering my above questions...

Paul asked the question, " having began in the spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh." (Gal 3:3) I see in your ideas that you think a person is made perfect by their works of the flesh.

Works of the Spirit in the flesh....not works OF the flesh. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.

Do you know what that treasure is?

 

[bbyrd009]

We worship God in the spirit, not the flesh.

this is easy to say, but i think you are both defining "worship" differently here HR, you mean giving obeisance in a building you deem "Church" on a Sunday, i guess, and disregarding all of the rest of Scripture @ works, as usual wadr. When you come down off the tares, you are still gonna hafta pick up your cross and follow, ok. No one can break up Nehushtan but you HR

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ's blood sacrifice is the means by which God can be satisfied and appeased in forgiving our sins. His wrath is appeased and His justice is satisfied.

22According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
48"If we let Him continue in this way, everyone will believe in Him! Then the Romans will come and remove both our place and our nation." Sanhedrin
50"You're not considering that it is to your advantage that one man should die for the people rather than the whole nation perish." Caiaphas, Jewish High Priest

so someone's wrath got appeased all right :)

 

[H. Richard]

this is easy to say, but i think you are both defining "worship" differently here HR, you mean giving obeisance in a building you deem "Church" on a Sunday, i guess, and disregarding all of the rest of Scripture @ works, as usual wadr. When you come down off the tares, you are still gonna hafta pick up your cross and follow, ok. No one can break up Nehushtan but you HR

***

In Church on Sunday you say

I don't go to churches men have built.

Church = The Church is a "Spiritual Church" (spiritual house 1 Peter 2:4 5) (Mark 14:58) (Acts 17:23 25) (2 Cor. 5:1) (Heb 9:11 and 24) made up of Christians. Since it consists of 'born again Christians' (see above) the true Church is as Jesus described a born again Christian in John 3:8.

John 3:8 NKJV
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Therefore, the Church is a spiritual entity, made by the will of God and built without human hands of flesh, and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it.

 

[H. Richard]

I have to say the things I do because you only use conjecture.

Where in the bible does it say....place their faith in His Son's work on the cross.

How can I answer such an obvious bogus statement? Use the bible.

***

If you have not put your faith in Jesus' work on the cross you can claim to be a Christian all you want to but according to the word of God you are not saved.

Really, I must answer your questions? You didn't answer mine so why should I try to answer yours.

Gal 6:12-14
12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

Paul said the above to those that were trying to get Paul's converts to grace to go back under the law to be saved. You are doing the same thing.

I have been consistent in saying my faith is in the work of God on the cross. Believe it or not.

At this point I, personally, I don't care what you believe.

 

[Episkopos]

I have never been answered in 38 years of asking people how they know they are saved....when people say they have placed or put their faith in the "finished work" of Christ.

Jesus is not looking to be accepted. God must accept us.