The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

Since I will no longer reply to jbf nor defend myself against his false accusations, I ask you other readers to use discernment when reading his posts concerning me. He makes all sorts of unwarranted conclusions about how I condemn people and exclude them from salvation when I said no such things. He reads whatever he wants into my words just as he reads whatever he wants into Scripture. He has one goal and that is to personally attack me to try and make me look as bad as possible in the hopes that it will also reflect badly upon my beliefs. May YHWH have mercy upon him.

 

[APAK]

Yes, I’ve already discerned and seen the deceptive nature of JBF. I thought as you did at first and gave him the benefit of the doubt even when his reasoning and discussions began to clearly become chaotic as if to twist what I was writing. Now I know he is just a deliberate disrupter that has no interest in useful discussion or edification of believers.

//

It seems the latest area of talk once again is concerning the Greek transliterated ‘logos.’ Anyone truly searching for the truth will know that ‘logo’s never means a person, let alone Jesus. There is no one here or anywhere where I’ve said this, that can prove me wrong. The best they can do is provide me with many rabbit trails that go nowhere or they just use irrelevant highfalutin language and arguments (mainly form Catholics). It is just lie, period.

Logos can be proven with a good level of certainty that it means the mind of God, his inner thoughts, commands, communique and plans. There is zero confidence in it ever meaning Jesus. And the context of where it is used in John also makes this nonsense. It was because of trinitarian bias and their pressure to bear caused the ignorant masses to believe a bold-faced lie.

The ‘logos’ as a pronoun is the neuter ‘it’ as earlier English translations used it. It was used by God via his spirit and power to create things into this 3D-T continuum and speak and perform acts to and for people.

John’s clear and pivotal message to the entire world that has be trampled underfoot by natural minds, is that God’s logos would be, FOR THE FIRST TIME, be embedded into the spirit and mind of a human being, called Jesus. This is a fantastic message that is hidden from most people today. Because of a bold lie all they get is Jesus is God. What a let-down.

Jesus would do his part of the word or logos dedicated to the salvation of mankind. How else could God show himself as sacrificing his own being than by creating of a perfect form of himself. God Almighty so loves us that he wants to give his own life if that were possible to be with us forever. The man Jesus was the solution.

Jesus was the perfect image of God and yet Jesus never thought or assumed his power was his own. He never credited himself as God. He always acknowledged he was the willing and loving servant of his Father.

Jesus was born to become the visible image of God’s presence in our lives and used God’s logos as we read in many passages of scripture. He used it to the cross and beyond. Is this not what John was clearly telling us. He surely was not saying that Jesus was God himself and God himself died on the cross and cries to himself from earth to heaven...etc

As John 1:17 tells us:

(Joh 1:17) For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Grace and truth came ‘through’ Jesus Christ. Just mediate on this part of the verse for a minute. Where did Jesus get this grace and truth in the first place?

We know Moses got the Law through God’s presence and his word (logos) in action. Similarly, as John was clearly pointing out, Jesus brought grace and truth through God’s logos or his word in action through himself, Amen!! See why the Law and grace and truth were given by different instruments. One was by God himself and physically given through/to Moses in his physical hands, the other again by God himself through/to the man Jesus Christ in his spiritual hands/heart. Jesu HAD the logos of God. Jesus is NEVER the logos. Yes, we can say in the correct context that the inner part of God's existence is his logos. It would be misleading however to say God was the logos. God is more..

The Law was external and physical in nature, grace and truth is spiritual and invisible………much more on this subject..

Blessings,

APAK

 

[amadeus]

Since I will no longer reply to jbf nor defend myself against his false accusations, I ask you other readers to use discernment when reading his posts concerning me. He makes all sorts of unwarranted conclusions about how I condemn people and exclude them from salvation when I said no such things. He reads whatever he wants into my words just as he reads whatever he wants into Scripture. He has one goal and that is to personally attack me to try and make me look as bad as possible in the hopes that it will also reflect badly upon my beliefs. May YHWH have mercy upon him.

Praying for you my friend. May God help each of us to lean on Him instead of on ourselves and others.

 

[justbyfaith]

@amadeus wrote:

I think that I have proven my point as much as it can be in man's language alone. Similarly I guess for you. Our details on the finer points are meaningless if we are not on His side. Only He is able to ponder what is in every heart.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Indeed; and on that day every man shall receive his praise from the Lord (1 Corinthians 4:5). However, the things he receives praise for may not profit him in the slightest as concerns whether he will be saved or not (Isaiah 57:12). As the determining factor for that is whether or not he believed in the real Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:3-4) and what He did for him on the Cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

re #480.

 

[justbyfaith]

Since I will no longer reply to jbf nor defend myself against his false accusations, I ask you other readers to use discernment when reading his posts concerning me. He makes all sorts of unwarranted conclusions about how I condemn people and exclude them from salvation when I said no such things. He reads whatever he wants into my words just as he reads whatever he wants into Scripture. He has one goal and that is to personally attack me to try and make me look as bad as possible in the hopes that it will also reflect badly upon my beliefs. May YHWH have mercy upon him.

That is simply untrue. I pointed out what was in one of your posts, @gadar perets, in which you did indeed say that we were condemning people who for the 200 years when the pre-kjv versions were in circulation believed in their mistranslations of John 1:1-3; in which they referred to the Logos as an "It" rather than a "He." I then pointed out that you are doing the same thing to people who have held to the kjv for the past 400 years because you hold them to be idolaters in that they worship the true Jesus as YHWH.

It is not my intention to personally attack you, @gadar perets. If you think that it is the case, cite more than one instance in which you think that I have done so. You cannot, because I have not attacked you in the slightest; rather I have pointed out one singular time that you were guilty of the very thing that you accused us of doing, when you accused us. It is never my intention or desire to judge those who have not been judgmental themselves. But if you are going to judge, expect to be judged in return.

You have called me a blasphemer for calling the idea that Jesus is not God a load of poop. Is that blasphemy because you do not believe that Jesus is God, and that therefore to say that He is would be blasphemy in your mind? Because calling the idea that Jesus isn't God a load of poop is not blasphemy; it is simply calling a false doctrine what I value it to be in light of the fact that someone tried to present it as "gems". In fact, the false doctrine presented as "gems" is worth less than poop, because if anyone receives it, it will put them into eternal brimstone and flames.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, I’ve already discerned and seen the deceptive nature of JBF. I thought as you did at first and gave him the benefit of the doubt even when his reasoning and discussions began to clearly become chaotic as if to twist what I was writing. Now I know he is just a deliberate disrupter that has no interest in useful discussion or edification of believers.

Thank you, @APAK. If there were not attacks like this coming from people like you who also set forth doctrines that will place a man in hell if believed, I might wonder if I were really in the faith, Matthew 5:10-12, 2 Timothy 3:10-13.

You want to call me "deceptive in nature" because all of your posts have been logically defeated by the things that I have set forth; and therefore your only recourse is to attack the messenger. However, in your attack on me, I am in the company of Paul, who wrote the following in 2 Corinthians 6:8,

By honour and dishonour: by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true:

Yes indeed, @gadar perets, I also pray that the people who are observing these things might have discernment; because if they do they will understand, @APAK, that there is no desire to deceive anywhere in my soul; but that my prayer for all of my doings on the internet is that sound doctrine might prevail: because the love of God dwells in my heart (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5) and that because of that I do not desire to see anyone perish.

If you were the same in your heart, @APAK, then you would consider that only the possibility that rejecting the concept that Jesus is the Lord God could result in eternal damnation (John 8:24) is enough of a reason to preach the concept that He is the Lord God (and not to do what you do instead; which is to try to convince other people of a doctrine that is damning to their souls: the concept that Jesus is not the Lord God). Do you want people to go to hell? If there is even the remote possibility that what you preach might put people in that place, why do you preach it? Where do your loyalties lie? With God or with that dude who fell because of pride?

Now I would ask you to consider what it says in Isaiah 54:17; because in rising up against me in judgment today, you are asking me to condemn you on your day of judgment: for I will indeed be a judge on that day (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

 

[justbyfaith]

I would also ask that people use discernment when reading the posts of @APAK and @gadar perets.

And to read all of their posts in light of what it says in John 8:24 in light of John 8:58 in light of John 8:59 and John 10:31-33 and Exodus 3:14.

I have to admit that I am a little bit angry at having been misrepresented here. However those who understand that it is love that motivates me to warn against the doctrines of false teachers here, will know that their misrepresentations concerning me are not in any way founded in reality.

 

[justbyfaith]

Praying for you my friend. May God help each of us to lean on Him instead of on ourselves and others.

Amen.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm off to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles / Sukkot. I may not be able to post until October 3. I hope someday you will all come to realize what a blessing it is to celebrate the feasts.

 

[APAK]

Even though I do not officially and deliberately observe this feast with a group of believers, as the last of three annual feasts, I do understand that it is the life for all believers. All believers should know that this feast as others are still ‘alive’ and relevant today, under grace and truth.

(Joh 7:37) Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying: If anyone thirsts, let him came to me and drink.
(Joh 7:38) He that believes on me, as the scripture has said: From within him shall flow rivers of living water.
(Joh 7:39) He spoke of the Spirit, which they that believed in him were to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been received, as Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Jesus would ask his Father to provide his own spirit to the faithful, the spirit of grace and truth....mmm, it lines up with John 1:17 as I just discussed a bit.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

The Spirit of Jesus...the Spirit of God...Matthew 28:19.

 

[djstav]

Although there is a Triune God and that there are 3 Witnesses within the One God; the concept of the Trinity is not how God the Father wants us to worship Him by. And He will judge believers by this too.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell within us to testify of the Son in glorifying the Son. Now how is He going to do that? Through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me: .........

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory or otherwise it is a false witness.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Therefore the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself through the believers in seeking His own glory for then that would mean there is unrighteousness in the Holy Spirit, but there is none.

It is when believers have been misled into thinking they are to honor & glorify the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but they do so not by the scripture nor by the Holy Spirit leading them to say this.

The errant Nicene creed introduced the unBiblical practice and believers need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in the wrship place and in fellowship and in prayer when coming to God the Father at all.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please hear His words; the Son is the only way to honor & glorify God the Father by. That is what the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to do as dwelling within us.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed...........

Paul stressed that focal point in worship to be on the Son.

Even in fellowship.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

So God the Father is not honored by honoring the Holy Spirit nor the "Trinity", because the Holy Spirit and scripture is leading believers to do the Father's will by honoring & glorifying the Son and by doing so, we are honoring & glorifying God the Father. Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father in anything in prayer, fellowship, and worship as those led by the Spirit of God & scripture shall do by His grace & by His help.

So ask Jesus for confirmation on how the Father wants you to only honor Him by today, and help to do His will by only honoring the Son in all things.

I have a question. When you're in heaven with God, will Jesus be there too? And where is the holy spirit going to be? When God speaks, will Jesus & the spirit echo his own voice? None of this makes sense to me, how does it to you?

 

[bbyrd009]

Those who wrote it attempted to transliterate our Saviour's name from Hebrew into Greek, but failed because Greek does not have an "sh" sound and they add the terminal "us" to names. This resulted in "Iesous" (yay-soo-us) which was an attempt at transliterating "Yeshua" (yay-shoo-a). It was then erroneously transliterated into Latin as "Iesus" and English as "Iesus" and English again as "Jesus". Anyone who truly loves Yeshua and loves truth will restore his true name to their lips.

which apparently no one really knows, so i'm not sure how you would do that even if it were spiritually beneficial tbh

 

[djstav]

Will there be talking in heaven, what language will there be?

 

[Episkopos]

It seems the latest area of talk once again is concerning the Greek transliterated ‘logos.’ Anyone truly searching for the truth will know that ‘logo’s never means a person, let alone Jesus. There is no one here or anywhere where I’ve said this, that can prove me wrong.

Rev. 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

 

[APAK]

Rev. 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

It’s a great verse eh? It says as you should know by now, that the lamb of God gained the name, or reputation of being the mouthpiece and voice (the word) for God’s thoughts and words, even today and in the future?

And the following next two verses fall neatly in line with this loose definition I just gave. So, the thoughts and words of God came out of Jesus’ mouth. Words of truth that can only come originally from God!

(Rev 19:13) And he is dressed in a garment sprinkled with blood, and his name is called The Word of God.
(Rev 19:14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
(Rev 19:15) And out of his mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it he should strike down the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he treads the winepress of the fierceness of the anger of God the Almighty.


If you want to try and persuade me that this verse is saying, ‘as everybody knows,’ word = Jesus = Jesus of God = word of God = God…of something like that, then I have no common basis to start a conversation with you on this subject or verse. You might want to get past the early pagan thinkers definition.

Read Rev 19:13-15 and try and plop the word Jesus in place of ‘word.’ Then see if it ‘fits’ when Jesus has a sharp sword come out of his mouth. It just does not fit, does it? The ‘sharp word’ are the words of God Almighty and that are spoken by Jesus as the word of God. Jesus is never (the) word or God Almighty. Yes, Jesus is definitely related to God by using his word…..Notice that God is working again through Jesus to execute his thoughts (word) of anger to strike down nations. This is the word in action again, as John Chapter 1 has the same meaning of 'word' or 'logos.'

So, I regretfully decline any discussion on this subject as it will serve no purpose or bring any edification for you or me.

If you can find your solid foundation for your belief someday, then I may entertain and indulge you.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[Episkopos]

It’s a great verse eh? It says as you should know by now, that the lamb of God gained the name, or reputation of being the mouthpiece and voice (the word) for God’s thoughts and words, even today and in the future?

And the following next two verses fall neatly in line with this loose definition I just gave. So, the thoughts and words of God came out of Jesus’ mouth. Words of truth that can only come originally from God!

(Rev 19:13) And he is dressed in a garment sprinkled with blood, and his name is called The Word of God.
(Rev 19:14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure.
(Rev 19:15) And out of his mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it he should strike down the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he treads the winepress of the fierceness of the anger of God the Almighty.


If you want to try and persuade me that this verse is saying, ‘as everybody knows,’ word = Jesus = Jesus of God = word of God = God…of something like that, then I have no common basis to start a conversation with you on this subject or verse. You might want to get past the early pagan thinkers definition.

Read Rev 19:13-15 and try and plop the word Jesus in place of ‘word.’ Then see if it ‘fits’ when Jesus has a sharp sword come out of his mouth. It just does not fit, does it? The ‘sharp word’ are the words of God Almighty and that are spoken by Jesus as the word of God. Jesus is never (the) word or God Almighty. Yes, Jesus is definitely related to God by using his word…..Notice that God is working again through Jesus to execute his thoughts (word) of anger to strike down nations. This is the word in action again, as John Chapter 1 has the same meaning of 'word' or 'logos.'

So, I regretfully decline any discussion on this subject as it will serve no purpose or bring any edification for you or me.

If you can find your solid foundation for your belief someday, then I may entertain and indulge you.

Bless you,


APAK

I thought so...

 

[justbyfaith]

Read Rev 19:13-15 and try and plop the word Jesus in place of ‘word.’ Then see if it ‘fits’ when Jesus has a sharp sword come out of his mouth. It just does not fit, does it?

It definitely does fit from my perspective.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm back from celebrating Sukkot and surprised to see no activity on this thread.

One of the main problems I find with the trinity doctrine aside from the fact that it is totally unscriptural is that it makes the work of the Father non-existent. For example, because people believe the Son is "God", they attribute the works of the "only true God" to him rather than to his Father who is the "only true God" (John 17:3). It is no longer the Father who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24), but the Son who is credited with creation. It is no longer the Father who gave the Law (Deuteronomy 10:4), but the Son. It is no longer the Father who is Almighty YHWH, but the Son. It is no longer the Father who is the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:6), but the Son. It is no longer the Father who is the great "I AM", but the Son. The list goes on and on.

We are taught "that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). We are NOT taught to honor the Son as though he is the Father. We are to honor the Son for what he has done, not for what his Father has done.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm back from celebrating Sukkot and surprised to see no activity on this thread.

One of the main problems I find with the trinity doctrine aside from the fact that it is totally unscriptural is that it makes the work of the Father non-existent. For example, because people believe the Son is "God", they attribute the works of the "only true God" to him rather than to his Father who is the "only true God" (John 17:3). It is no longer the Father who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24), but the Son who is credited with creation. It is no longer the Father who gave the Law (Deuteronomy 10:4), but the Son. It is no longer the Father who is Almighty YHWH, but the Son. It is no longer the Father who is the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:6), but the Son. It is no longer the Father who is the great "I AM", but the Son. The list goes on and on.

We are taught "that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). We are NOT taught to honor the Son as though he is the Father. We are to honor the Son for what he has done, not for what his Father has done.

This is an opinion...which is very biased. The bible speaks of BOTH Father and Son creating the universe as ELOHIM...

Let US create man in OUR image.

But you can't see the plural.