The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

The breach widens...

Yes, the breach between trinitarians and YHWH widens. It is sad indeed.

 

[larry2]

Yes, the breach between trinitarians and YHWH widens. It is sad indeed.

Hi gadar perets, among churches that do not believe in the trinity are Armstrongism, Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons. I see that you are listed as an “Other Religion,” and would like to know what that is; makes it easier to understand where you’re coming from.

I came out of Catholicism and know what a transition that was, had a sister that was into Armstrongism that I truly believe was saved, and although I near didn’t believe anything they did, I believe my sister believed on Jesus as her Savior.

I read in 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Will I ever believe Jesus was “a god?” in Jn 3:16 which is the New World Translation from the JWs. I sure pray not.

Under these circumstances, I don’t see anyone buying into what you’re saying, unless they belonged to one of those other religions, and what I’m saying isn’t to be rude. My prayer is that you will one day really consider what we’re saying.

 

[Nancy]

@gadar perets perets said:

"We are taught that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father" (John 5:23).

"We are NOT taught to honor the Son as though he is the Father."

I'm sorry, but is it just me or does the above underlined statements seem to mean the exact same thing?

 

[gadar perets]

Hi gadar perets, among churches that do not believe in the trinity are Armstrongism, Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons. I see that you are listed as an “Other Religion,” and would like to know what that is; makes it easier to understand where you’re coming from.

I do not belong to any of the denominations you listed. When forced to label myself, I call myself a Messianic Hebrew. I do not know if I have Jewish blood in me. All that matters to me is that I am Yeshua's. Since I am of the seed of Abraham through Messiah, and since he was a Hebrew, then I am a Hebrew as well and a Messianic one at that.

I came out of Catholicism and know what a transition that was, had a sister that was into Armstrongism that I truly believe was saved, and although I near didn’t believe anything they did, I believe my sister believed on Jesus as her Savior.

I came out of Catholicism as well. Armstrong had many things right, but sin entered in and destroyed their unity.

I read in 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Will I ever believe Jesus was “a god?” in Jn 3:16 which is the New World Translation from the JWs. I sure pray not.

Did you mean John 1:1? If so, then "a god" is a false translation. John 1:1-5 has nothing to do with the Son unless you read him into the text.

Under these circumstances, I don’t see anyone buying into what you’re saying, unless they belonged to one of those other religions, and what I’m saying isn’t to be rude. My prayer is that you will one day really consider what we’re saying.

I have spent 32 years studying what I teach. The trinitarian view is not Scriptural and is built on faulty translations, reading the Son into OT verses and taking verses out of context. My prayer is that you will one day really consider what I am saying. Since you are new to this thread, I highly suggest you read what I have posted so far. You can also show me where my last post to you is in error.

 

[gadar perets]

@gadar perets perets said:

"We are taught that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father" (John 5:23).

"We are NOT taught to honor the Son as though he is the Father."

I'm sorry, but is it just me or does the above underlined statements seem to mean the exact same thing?

It is just you. They do not mean the same thing.

 

[Nancy]

It is just you. They do not mean the same thing.

Oh. Okay then, as long as YOU say so it must be right.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have spent 32 years studying what I teach. The trinitarian view is not Scriptural and is built on faulty translations, reading the Son into OT verses and taking verses out of context. My prayer is that you will one day really consider what I am saying. Since you are new to this thread, I highly suggest you read what I have posted so far. You can also show me where my last post to you is in error.

Obviously you are the one to determine for us what translations are faulty. Millions of people who trust that these translations are the word of the Lord are wrong and have the wrong message of salvation; and are therefore doomed to hell. Good for you! You found the only way in which is to reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour!

I declare to you that if Jesus Christ is Lord, then He is also God...Mark 12:29, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21...1 Corinthians 12:3, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6...Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21.

 

[gadar perets]

Sir, do you accept the authority of the New Testament?

You are forcing me to reply to you even though you don't deserve replies because of the way you twist scripture, blaspheme, make false accusations and try to discredit me at every turn. For the sake of others not to be deceived by you, I will reply to some of your recent posts.

You know full well I accept the authority of the NT when it is translated correctly. The fact that we have varying translations proves English translations can be questioned and translated differently. We do not have ONLY ONE authoritative translation as you believe (the KJV). It has many errors.

 

[gadar perets]

Compare Psalms 45:6-7 to Hebrews 1:8-9

Neither of those passages teach us Yeshua is YHWH. They teach us he is an "elohim" and a "theos", but since he has a God over him that "anointed" him (Psalms 45:7), he cannot be that same God/Elohim/Theos. He is a lesser elohim/theos. Yeshua's Father is the "only true God?Elohim/Theos (John 17:3).

 

[gadar perets]

See Revelation 1:17-18. He who is the first and the last is living and was dead.

Having a title in common with YHWH does not make him YHWH any more than Cyrus having the title Maschiach makes him Yeshua or any more than me being called "father" makes me YHWH.

 

[gadar perets]

John 1:3 shows clearly that Jesus is the Creator, whether He was an impersonal Word or the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Yes, it does IF you read him into the text as you have done. The "logos" is the Father's spoken words, thoughts, mind, plan, etc. He spoke everything into existence as Scriptures teach. When He said, "Let there be light", it was immediately created by those spoken words. And He created everything all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24).

 

[gadar perets]

Obviously you are the one to determine for us what translations are faulty. Millions of people who trust that these translations are the word of the Lord are wrong and have the wrong message of salvation; and are therefore doomed to hell. Good for you! You found the only way in which is to reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour!

Millions of people believe "Easter" belongs in Acts 12:4 of the KJV. Therefore, millions of people are deceived about that faulty translation which is NOT the word of YHWH in that verse.

This post is another example of how you falsely accuse me. I never said I reject Yeshua Messiah as my Lord and Saviour. Since you can't refute my posts, you attack me and try and discredit me. You will be judged by all your false accusations.

 

[Episkopos]

Millions of people believe "Easter" belongs in Acts 12:4 of the KJV. Therefore, millions of people are deceived about that faulty translation which is NOT the word of YHWH in that verse.

This post is another example of how you falsely accuse me. I never said I reject Yeshua Messiah as my Lord and Saviour. Since you can't refute my posts, you attack me and try and discredit me. You will be judged by all your false accusations.

When a person falsely sets himself up as a teacher ...and is in grave error... that person needs to be discredited. That is reasonable. Should we give credit where none is due? You have a repetitive agenda....and stomp your feet thinking your frustration is going to make it more true. Most Christians are too well informed to jump into the carnal "sabbath-keepers" bandwagon. You should realize that by now. It is just one form of indoctrination into self-effort into trying to please God.

If you think that a religious observance of the 7th day is important...then you do it. Nobody will stop you. We receive the weak in faith (non-spiritual people) but not to doubtful disputations.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When a person falsely sets himself up as a teacher ...and is in grave error... that person needs to be discredited. That is reasonable. Should we give credit where none is due? You have a repetitive agenda....and stomp your feet thinking your frustration is going to make it more true. Most Christians are too well informed to jump into the carnal "sabbath-keepers" bandwagon. You should realize that by now. It is just one form of indoctrination into self-effort into trying to please God.

If you think that a religious observance of the 7th day is important...then you do it. Nobody will stop you. We receive the weak in faith (non-spiritual people) but not to doubtful disputations.

But if your sacrifice pleases God and his does not, be thankful he cannot kill you but can only stomp his feet in frustration.

 

[Episkopos]

But if your sacrifice pleases God and his does not, be thankful he cannot kill you but can only stomp his feet in frustration.

Should I fear what a man can do to me? I only fear God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, it does IF you read him into the text as you have done. The "logos" is theJesus Father's spoken words, thoughts, mind, plan, etc. He spoke everything into existence as Scriptures teach. When He said, "Let there be light", it was immediately created by those spoken words. And He created everything all by Himself (Isaiah 44:24).

See Colossians 1:16 Ephesians 3:9. You have to realize that Jesus is God incarnate according to Isaiah 9:6. You are enabled to explain that away because salvation is by faith and therefore unbelief must be a viable option intellectually. It has to be your choice as to whether you receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Have I shown adequately that if Jesus is the Lord, He must also be God?

For the past 400 years the kjv has been the accepted version of scripture that dictates to us what is biblical sound doctrine. Would you contend that for 400 years we have not had the true message of salvation?

For in the kjv it is clear to me that in specific verses, the Lord is God...Acts of the Apostles 4:24, Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, Jude 1:4.

And that Jesus is the Lord must also be evident to you...1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 20:28, The story of the ten lepers (Luke 17:11-19) is also, another evidence to me that Jesus is God, the way that I read that in the English language (and I don't think the translators even intended that to be a proof of Christ's Deity).

 

[justbyfaith]

Millions of people believe "Easter" belongs in Acts 12:4 of the KJV. Therefore, millions of people are deceived about that faulty translation which is NOT the word of YHWH in that verse.

This post is another example of how you falsely accuse me. I never said I reject Yeshua Messiah as my Lord and Saviour. Since you can't refute my posts, you attack me and try and discredit me. You will be judged by all your false accusations.

What I meant was, that the true Jesus, if He is the Lord, is also God. And therefore since you reject Him as God, you reject Him as Lord. I am not accusing you, my friend. I am attempting to open your eyes.

Of course the devil hates the concept of Easter because He was defeated by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And since the original autographs have been lost to us, there is no way of knowing whether Luke was referring to a holiday celebrating that event in history or not. But I can see how, if there were a Greek word that described that holiday, the devil might try to annihilate it out of very existence. He wants to rid the world of the good news that Jesus is risen from the dead.

And if it is a mistranslation that departed from the original autographs, I happen to believe that the Holy Spirit ordained for it to be in there as a reminder of a major tenet of the gospel and a mandate to celebrate Christ's resurrection every year; for it was probably included in the scriptures at a time when the devil was trying to destroy that holiday in church tradition. So I believe it was wise of King James to include it in the translation that he authorized; because it was timely and a move of the Holy Ghost to counteract the devil's attack on a holiday that reminds people every year that Jesus is risen from the dead. Can you see how the devil would love to throw that holiday out of existence? Therefore you would be doing his work to continue to complain about this wonderful rendition in the kjv that preserves the most important holiday that ever was. For the remembrance of Jesus' resurrection proves to the world that God is greater than the devil and that Jesus is the Lord and Father of eternity.

 

[justbyfaith]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9.

 

[APAK]

Should I fear what a man can do to me? I only fear God.

Epi, you and one of your side-kicks, @stunnedbygrace I see are proving me again correct. You are fine examples of folks that have nothing useful or edifying to say in the body of Christ, as you say you are a member. I wonder myself at times.

You call GP a false teacher, and I have called you out to say you are one, indeed, for the reasons I’ve already cited over a few threads. I do not think GP is speaking false at all as the basis for being a true believer in God through our Lord Jesus.

GP’s crime it seems is that he does not believe in the pagan Trinity model and formula and believes in worshipping YHWH and honoring the 7th day? I definitely believe as he does in the first, and the second part is more consistent with scripture indeed, even though I do not myself honor the day per se as pivotal or essential for my walk.

So how does that make him an unbeliever again?

You have your opinion I and others have their own.

Frankly, if the Trinity model was a criteria or litmus test, and it seems that way by you and many others, for one in Christ, I would defy and run from it every time because it is a lie, a well contrived lie I might say.

Not one person that blindly supports the Trinity has ever convinced me it is the word of God. On the other hand, over years I have provided scripture that denies any such Trinity. I eventually get continual responses as a deer staring into headlights. I eventually get boastful remarks thrown back to me, full of pride as I read here. Or sometimes snide and degrading remarks. At that point I know at least the conversation has truly ended.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Nancy]

Epi, you and one of your side-kicks, @stunnedbygrace I see are proving me again correct. You are fine examples of folks that have nothing useful or edifying to say in the body of Christ, as you say you are a member. I wonder myself at times.

You call GP a false teacher, and I have called you out to say you are one, indeed, for the reasons I’ve already cited over a few threads. I do not think GP is speaking false at all as the basis for being a true believer in God through our Lord Jesus.

GP’s crime it seems is that he does not believe in the pagan Trinity model and formula and believes in worshipping YHWH and honoring the 7th day? I definitely believe as he does in the first, and the second part is more consistent with scripture indeed, even though I do not myself honor the day per se as pivotal or essential for my walk.

So how does that make him an unbeliever again?

You have your opinion I and others have their own.

Frankly, if the Trinity model was a criteria or litmus test, and it seems that way by you and many others, for one in Christ, I would defy and run from it every time because it is a lie, a well contrived lie I might say.

Not one person that blindly supports the Trinity has ever convinced me it is the word of God. On the other hand, over years I have provided scripture that denies any such Trinity. I eventually get continual responses as a deer staring into headlights. I eventually get boastful remarks thrown back to me, full of pride as I read here. Or sometimes snide and degrading remarks. At that point I know at least the conversation has truly ended.

Bless you,

APAK

I am a Trinitarian, yet I hold in reserve this doctrine as I cannot be certain. And, to me, anyhow-does it matter? I don't think so. I am wrong about many things so, I am not going to defend this doctrine to death, neither will I try to disprove it because, scripture can be slippery, and it is easy to make a case for both.