The Problem With The Trinity

[Enoch111]

Do you have something against comparing translations or are you also a KJV only guy?

Yes I have some very serious objections against all modern translations since 1881.

Had the King James Bible been full of errors (as many claim) it could not possibly have had the blessings of God for over 400 years, and been the sole leading English translation worldwide for about 300 years. Indeed all conservative Christian commentaries and Bible tools (such as concordances and lexicons) from the 17th to the 20th centuries used the KJV without any reservations whatsoever.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes I have some very serious objections against all modern translations since 1881.

Had the King James Bible been full of errors (as many claim) it could not possibly have had the blessings of God for over 400 years, and been the sole leading English translation worldwide for about 300 years. Indeed all conservative Christian commentaries and Bible tools (such as concordances and lexicons) from the 17th to the 20th centuries used the KJV without any reservations whatsoever.

There are no infallible translations. All must be checked against the Hebrew and Greek. I use the KJV because it is tied to other concordances and lexicons, but when a question is raised concerning the translation of a word, we MUST compare translations as well as lexicons. Especially when important doctrines are founded upon those words. We cannot stick our head in the sand and rely solely on the KJV. However, even when the KJV gets it right, people twist it by adding their own thoughts into the text.

 

[Episkopos]

You accuse me of being a false teacher, but are unable to refute my posts. So you resort to personal attacks. How childish. Can't you dialogue in a respectful manner?

I am being respectful. And reasonable. You were going on about being discredited...as if what you are saying were the truth. Look at the tone of your own posts...see to your own ways.

What I'm saying is that you have your heart on your sleeve about an issue that is not pertinent to any kind of spiritual advancement. Yet you persist....over and over like a broken record. I'm trying to give you a little advice. This issue is a non-starter.

As I said...if you wish to pursue what you find to be important...do so. I don't think anyone here is saying you can't be a believer if you honour one day over another. I'll repeat this verse since I believe it gives the proper emphasis.

Rom. 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. So if a person keeps a certain day by faith...then good. But if a person walks by faith completely oblivious to time and space...then good. So we are looking for faith...not hoops to jump through. THAT is being respectful.

What is needed is faith...and going from a human faith to the faith OF Jesus Christ.

 

[gadar perets]

What I'm saying is that you have your heart on your sleeve about an issue that is not pertinent to any kind of spiritual advancement. Yet you persist....over and over like a broken record. I'm trying to give you a little advice. This issue is a non-starter.

Idolatry is not a pertinent issue??? You have made a man "God" and replaced him for the Father!!

As I said...if you wish to pursue what you find to be important...do so. I don't think anyone here is saying you can't be a believer if you honour one day over another. I'll repeat this verse since I believe it gives the proper emphasis.

Rom. 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. So if a person keeps a certain day by faith...then good. But if a person walks by faith completely oblivious to time and space...then good. So we are looking for faith...not hoops to jump through. THAT is being respectful.

What is needed is faith...and going from a human faith to the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Why are you bringing up the Sabbath in this trinity thread? Is it because you cannot refute my non-trinitarian views? I can easily refute your Sabbath desecration views, but I do not want to derail this thread.

 

[Episkopos]

Idolatry is not a pertinent issue??? You have made a man "God" and replaced him for the Father!!


Why are you bringing up the Sabbath in this trinity thread? Is it because you cannot refute my non-trinitarian views? I can easily refute your Sabbath desecration views, but I do not want to derail this thread.

You're doing it again....being unreasonable. Taking shots...and being disrespectful. Not esteeming a certain day is not a desecration. But you are reducing believers in value to conform with your limited understanding. Now that is the real desecration.

 

[gadar perets]

Not esteeming a certain day is not a desecration.

It is when it is a commanded day, especially within the Ten Commandments.

 

[Episkopos]

It is when it is a commanded day, especially within the Ten Commandments.

In the OT men had to sanctify themselves...and be clean according to the law...eating only what was according to the law.

In the NT all that has been done away with...because the holiness has changed. Now we enter into Christ to partake of his life. To deny this is frustrate the grace of God in favour of an observance of a law.

 

[gadar perets]

In the OT men had to sanctify themselves...and be clean according to the law...eating only what was according to the law.

In the NT all that has been done away with...because the holiness has changed. Now we enter into Christ to partake of his life. To deny this is frustrate the grace of God in favour of an observance of a law.

It is not a holiness issue. It is a sin issue. We are to go and sin no more. Go and break the law no more (1 John 3:4). If you want to continue in sin, that is your choice. I choose to know what the law says and obey it so I don't sin. Also, we do not frustrate grace by obeying the law. We only frustrate grace by seeking to be made righteous by the law. I do not obey the law to be righteous. I obey the law to avoid sin and because we cannot truly love YHWH unless we keep His commandments (1 John 5:3).

 

[Episkopos]

It is not a holiness issue. It is a sin issue. We are to go and sin no more. Go and break the law no more (1 John3:4). If you want to continue in sin, that is your choice. I choose to know what the law says and obey it so I don't sin. Also, we do not frustrate grace by obeying the law. We only frustrate grace by seeking to be made righteous by the law. I do not obey the law to be righteous. I obey the law to avoid sin and because we cannot truly love YHWH unless we keep His commandments (1 John 5:3).

You are contradicting yourself here....you do in fact try to obey the law...not only to be righteous but also holy. That is why you are so disturbed at those who choose a living holiness apart from the works of the law.

The Jews did what you are doing and missed the true righteousness. Yet the Gentiles...without the law..apprehended the righteousness of faith.

I fear that this remains a mystery to you.

There is a law that is beyond the law that reveals the death in men. That is the law of faith.

If you understood the life that is available to all men by faith...you would drop your own efforts at pleasing God through the law like a hot potato.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to miss Paul's point of not being perfected by the law. Such are not following the way of grace...which is the real holiness that Jesus gives us by His resurrection. We are to walk in HIS life...His resurrection life. No human observance can touch that.

NOT by works of the law. But by the grace of God which is given to us by faith.

Do we enter into the miraculous life and works of Christ by the law? Or by faith?

 

[gadar perets]

You are contradicting yourself here....you do in fact try to obey the law...not only to be righteous but also holy. That is why you are so disturbed at those who choose a living holiness apart from the works of the law.

The Jews did what you are doing and missed the true righteousness. Yet the Gentiles...without the law..apprehended the righteousness of faith.

I fear that this remains a mystery to you.

There is a law that is beyond the law that reveals the death in men. That is the law of faith.

If you understood the life that is available to all men by faith...you would drop your own efforts at pleasing God through the law like a hot potato.

It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to miss Paul's point of not being perfected by the law. Such are not following the way of grace...which is the real holiness that Jesus gives us by His resurrection. We are to walk in HIS life...His resurrection life. No human observance can touch that.

NOT by works of the law. But by the grace of God which is given to us by faith.

Do we enter into the miraculous life and works of Christ by the law? Or by faith?

If what you say is true, then believers can sin all they want since they are supposedly walking in his life. You simply don't understand sin.

 

[Nancy]

If what you say is true, then believers can sin all they want since they are supposedly walking in his life. You simply don't understand sin.

Why would a true believer ever even WANT to sin?? If they do, then I do not see them as true believers...unless they are babes yet and still have aspects of their lives they are not (yet?) willing to surrender.

 

[Episkopos]

If what you say is true, then believers can sin all they want since they are supposedly walking in his life. You simply don't understand sin.

Rather...you don't understand the power of His life. Sin is not possible when we abide in Christ.

But you can try following the law all day long...and still sin through the weakness of the flesh.

 

[gadar perets]

Why would a true believer ever even WANT to sin?? If they do, then I do not see them as true believers...unless they are babes yet and still have aspects of their lives they are not (yet?) willing to surrender.

A believer would not want to sin. Satan knows that full well. That is why his ministers of light have deceived believers into sinning ignorantly. What better way to get believers to sin than to trick them into believing the law is abolished or certain laws are fulfilled or believers can't sin or that believers need not obey the law because they are living in Christ or that Christ kept the law so they don't have to. It is all a bunch of foolish nonsense.

 

[gadar perets]

Rather...you don't understand the power of His life. Sin is not possible when we abide in Christ.

How, then, can a believer sin unto death or sin not unto death (1 John 5:16)?

But you can try following the law all day long...and still sin through the weakness of the flesh.

I agree, but I can avoid sin by being strong in the Spirit and knowing what the law says.

 

[Episkopos]

How, then, can a believer sin unto death or sin not unto death (1 John 5:16)?

By not abiding in Christ.

I agree, but I can avoid sin by being strong in the Spirit and knowing what the law says.

What does that mean to be strong in the Spirit? A term may mean something to someone...but not line up with the word.

His strength is made full in our weakness.

 

[gadar perets]

By not abiding in Christ.

So then you are saying that every person who abides in Messiah remains sinless all his life, but if he sins once it is because he did not abide in Messiah? If that is the case, then no one ever abides in Messiah because we all sin. To abide in Messiah and Messiah abide in us means to remain in him and he in us. A believer who sins is still a believer and still abides in Messiah. That is why he can repent and be forgiven. The one who does not remain in him, but renounces him can no longer repent.

What does that mean to be strong in the Spirit? A term may mean something to someone...but not line up with the word.

It means we are walking in the Spirit, hearing its voice, and obeying in the power of the Holy Spirit rather than our own power.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are two Lords (YHWH and Yeshua).

That is not what the Bible teaches (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

There is only one Lord, even our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 1:3-4).

There is one Lord Jesus Christ; and He is YHWH (Mark 12:29, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

But I expect you to never look up the verses and to continue spouting your false doctrine in spite of what they say.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is my confession except I don't use an erroneous name that was only recently invented for my Saviour.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Yeshua, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You attach a definition of who Jesus is to the term Yeshua that does not belong to the true Son of God.

Therefore the only way for you to be saved is for you to either confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (under the definition of sound doctrine given to us in the kjv) or to place as your definition of Yeshua the same definition that true Pentecostals have of who Jesus is (Colossians 2:9), and calling on the name of the Lord Yeshua under that definition.

 

[justbyfaith]

Does Jude 1:3-4 contradict Ephesians 4:5? it does not, because the Greek word for "and" is "kai" and can be translated "even".

 

[Episkopos]

So then you are saying that every person who abides in Messiah remains sinless all his life, but if he sins once it is because he did not abide in Messiah? If that is the case, then no one ever abides in Messiah because we all sin. To abide in Messiah and Messiah abide in us means to remain in him and he in us. A believer who sins is still a believer and still abides in Messiah. That is why he can repent and be forgiven. The one who does not remain in him, but renounces him can no longer repent.


It means we are walking in the Spirit, hearing its voice, and obeying in the power of the Holy Spirit rather than our own power.

Again...what is the meaning of any of this? What do you mean by remain? Hold to your opinion? What do you mean by power? Your own strength but in a religious sense? Anybody can adapt a lingo into a very human observance...and say...see I'm doing it.